1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Featured Calvinism and Arminianism are Each Partially Right

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by Steven Yeadon, Jan 31, 2020.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Steven Yeadon

    Steven Yeadon Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2017
    Messages:
    2,391
    Likes Received:
    315
    Faith:
    Baptist
    To answer the problems of how God works in history given the claims of scripture I have created the following theory to test.

    My theory is that God uses single predestination to choose certain elect individuals from before birth. This is equivalent to the special grace shown to those like Isaac and Jacob. God may also be using double predestination concerning certain individuals who seem destined to perdition from before birth such as Pharaoh, Judas, the Antichrist, and the False Prophet. However, God has made it so that most of His creatures are saved through a resistible Call to faith, a Call to faith that always requires mercy and compassion on God’s part. A Call that originates from God through Nature, Law, or Gospel and must find its resolution in Jesus Christ and the Cross. A Call the vast majority of humanity has rejected. God also hardens people, potentially to damnation, for His own purposes, as in the case of Pharaoh. A hardening that may be removed at a later time in a person or group’s lifetimes, as I argued happened to the Jews of the apostolic era in a previous thread on Romans 9-11.

    Thus, I agree with Arminianism that God uses Synergism at all.

    The key problem facing this theory is whether the Bible disallows synergism. Is monergism the only way in which God works according to the bible?

    Although, I affirm some of Arminiansism, I must believe the following, despite this.

    1. Reasoned choice is not the highest good. No where does the bible say that.

    2. God does give false options, look at the tree of the knowledge of good and evil in Eden. Everything was permissible in Adam and Eve's innocent state except one bad thing that carried a death penalty.

    3. God is omniscient according to scripture, open theism is thus in error. I provide scriptures to prove God is omniscient,
    14 Bible verses about God, Omniscience Of

    4. God never looked forward to see who would love him to then create the cosmos. That is an evil idea that allows great boasting before God. The idea of looking forward in time to choose people based on merit is not found in scripture at all.

    5. The will is clearly degraded before salvation according to scripture. Any refutation of universal double predestination must include God’s previent mercy, compassion, and Call. Romans 1 through Romans 8 shows the Law cannot be kept, that is why we need the Cross. Even then, Romans 7-8 are clear that without Life by the Spirit it is impossible to be holy and obedient. We are changed forever when the Holy Spirit comes in us at salvation. Thus, free will is given a holy life by the Holy Spirit.

    6. Calvinism is correct, Romans 9 makes it clear that God must show mercy and compassion in choosing one for salvation to be saved. However, there are verses indicating God wants all saved.

    7. Calvinism is correct that double predestination is not beyond God's character according to Romans 9. If He wanted children of wrath He could do so, and what right has clay to complain?

    8. The mind cannot save us from besetting sin as explained in Romans 7:21-23,

    9. God does not desire all saved equally. There is no other explanation if Jesus can make this remark in Matthew 11:22-24,
    22 Nevertheless I say to you, it will be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon in the day of judgment than for you. 23 And you, Capernaum, will not be exalted to heaven, will you? You will descend to Hades; for if the [a]miracles had occurred in Sodom which occurred in you, it would have remained to this day. 24 Nevertheless I say to you that it will be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for you.”

    Arminians too often say, "Let God be good!" To this I must retort with the Reformers: "Let God be God.

    10. Another important point to make is that Romans 8:4-17 makes it abundantly clear that free will is given a holy life by the Holy Spirit.
     
  2. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    52,624
    Likes Received:
    2,742
    Faith:
    Baptist
    None of us have inherit faith in us, none of us cam will ourselves to believe, and no scriptures teach to us God will is to save all sinners!
    And how can God's will to really save someone by thwarted by a finite puny creature such as man?
     
  3. Steven Yeadon

    Steven Yeadon Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2017
    Messages:
    2,391
    Likes Received:
    315
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Note I said God's will is that there is no sin or rebellion against Him. While God ordains sins to be used according to His will as in the crucifixion of Jesus Christ, my point is that God makes it clear He hates sin and does not desire it. If so, then both Arminianism and Calvinism fail to explain why we live in a world with sin. My hope is to instead see if there is a third theory that can account for this. That is why I posited my theory, it is a stepping stone to a more mature understanding of a third understanding.
     
  4. Steven Yeadon

    Steven Yeadon Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2017
    Messages:
    2,391
    Likes Received:
    315
    Faith:
    Baptist
    On the account of how God's will is thwarted by puny mortals. I will state that what you said means there should never have been a Fall in Eden.
     
  5. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    52,624
    Likes Received:
    2,742
    Faith:
    Baptist
    There is sin in his creation due to Satan and Adam making free will choices to sin!
     
  6. Steven Yeadon

    Steven Yeadon Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2017
    Messages:
    2,391
    Likes Received:
    315
    Faith:
    Baptist
    But if Adam is a puny human being and the serpent is a puny beast of great cunning, how are puny mortals defying the Almighty God of the universe? How is God's will standing in light of this?
     
  7. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    52,624
    Likes Received:
    2,742
    Faith:
    Baptist
    It was the permissive Will of God, just as puny sinners continuing to decide to reject God saving them!
     
  8. Steven Yeadon

    Steven Yeadon Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2017
    Messages:
    2,391
    Likes Received:
    315
    Faith:
    Baptist
    So are you saying God in His declarative will wanted Adam and the Serpent and Eve to all sin by decree? To avoid this it appears you need a third will of God.
     
  9. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    52,624
    Likes Received:
    2,742
    Faith:
    Baptist
    No, rather that God knew that what was done was what should have been done....
     
  10. Steven Yeadon

    Steven Yeadon Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2017
    Messages:
    2,391
    Likes Received:
    315
    Faith:
    Baptist
    What do you mean, that's confusing. Are you saying God in His declarative will wanted the Fall or not?
     
  11. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    52,624
    Likes Received:
    2,742
    Faith:
    Baptist
    What do you mean by declarative will?
     
  12. Steven Yeadon

    Steven Yeadon Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2017
    Messages:
    2,391
    Likes Received:
    315
    Faith:
    Baptist
  13. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    52,624
    Likes Received:
    2,742
    Faith:
    Baptist
    • Useful Useful x 1
  14. Steven Yeadon

    Steven Yeadon Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2017
    Messages:
    2,391
    Likes Received:
    315
    Faith:
    Baptist
    God obviously has a will in secret, for Jesus is the lamb crucified before the world was made. His will for the Son and Word was more than just ordained in my opinion. It had to be His pleasing and perfect will for Satan's will is for Jesus to avoid the Cross, as seen in Peter's rebuke by Jesus and the temptation in the wilderness.

    Here is where I have difficulty, it is the determinative will and the permissive will.

    I would say God in His sovereignty allows things He hates. The Fall, Israel's rebellion, and the death of the wicked unsaved. That is true.

    I disagree that God ultimately decreed these things He hates to happen. There is more going here than meets the eye. Jesus Christ prays for His killers, saying they were ignorant and should be given mercy. That wasn't an empty prayer.

    God's perfect will was for His Son to die on the Cross. We are told this many times by the preconfiguration of the Old Testament. His Son and suffering Christians are a pleasing aroma of righteous suffering (2 Corinthians 2:15-17). God wants us to suffer like Jesus Christ. There is no way around it.

    I see my real problem is the interplay of man and God's wills. A question that when properly answered must solve from whence evil comes.

    I now see that since I interpret Romans 9 as you do, my critique is one that is really within Reformed thought though.
     
  15. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2019
    Messages:
    9,903
    Likes Received:
    1,820
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Here is reality.

    Evil exists, and God exists. Therefore God wills evil to exist. If God did not will for evil to exist it would not exist. Evil is not good but it is good that there is evil because it brings ultimate glory to God as his attributes are put on display.

    Arminianism tries to give God a pass by explaining away evil but the problem is it all leads back to God. Now, God is not evil, God is only good, but you have to say He wills evil to exist.
     
  16. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2018
    Messages:
    4,643
    Likes Received:
    1,158
    Faith:
    Baptist
    What makes you think that the fall was not part of the will of God?
    God did not “cause” the fall, but what the devil and mankind “meant for evil”, that very thing “God meant for good”.
     
    • Useful Useful x 1
  17. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2019
    Messages:
    9,903
    Likes Received:
    1,820
    Faith:
    Baptist
  18. ivdavid

    ivdavid Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2019
    Messages:
    451
    Likes Received:
    40
    Faith:
    Baptist
    The Bible disallows synergism as much as the Law of works disallowed it - man is commanded to synergistically obey only to prove he can never do so. The synergistic option is still valid if man were able to obey, just as the Law did result in life to the One who obeyed it.

    As to your theory, I've always argued for Single Predestination. Double Predestination is not impossible of God, we see it with the elect and non-elect angels - He simply has revealed He hasn't done so with man. Also, it can be argued that the hardening of those fit for destruction is not a decree that's predestined but which is consequent to their own evil. Some of this has been summarized in this earlier thread.
     
  19. ivdavid

    ivdavid Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2019
    Messages:
    451
    Likes Received:
    40
    Faith:
    Baptist
    The short answer is that evil is made possible in God creating self-deterministic creatures.

    The simple idea is that it takes God to be God - anyone who is not God will invariably fall short of the glory of God. This is a loose paraphrasing of Karl Barth's creational entropy. God has the choice before creating man, to either create him in Christ or to create him in the self-nature/flesh - and God chose the natural first and then the spiritual (1Cor 15:45-46) in order to show the failures of the self against the perfection of His Spirit.

    Hence, in the resurrection, we who are in Christ shall be gods (John 10:34), being upheld by His nature alone. But in the garden, man had his self that could desire and counsel differently from God's. (you could check out the wills of God and their interplay with man's for further elaboration). God does not desire man's rebellion in transgression but He does counsel it according to His purposes - the desire and counsel of Eph 1:11 being the perfect and decretive wills respectively.
     
  20. Steven Yeadon

    Steven Yeadon Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2017
    Messages:
    2,391
    Likes Received:
    315
    Faith:
    Baptist
    The bible presents us a choice to please or displease God. His will can be understood thus in terms of things that please Him and displease Him.

    Psalm 115:3 and Psalm 135:6 show God does what pleases Him

    Ecclesiastes 8:3 shows kings also do all that pleases them.

    The bible says the following please God:


    To keep His commandments (1 John 3:22)

    To suffer for Him (2 corinthians 2:16-17)

    Spreading the Gospel (1 Thessalonians 2:4)

    Pleasing God over men (Galatians 1:10)

    Earnestly attempting to find Him (Hebrews 11:6)

    Believing He exists (Hebrews 11:6)

    Singing praise to God (Psalm 135:3 and 147:1)

    Not being conformed to the world (Romans 12:1-2)

    The words of our mouth and the meditation of our heart should be aimed to please Him (Psalm 19:14)

    Those that fear Him (Psalm 147:10-11)

    Those that hope in His steadfast love (Psalm 147:10-11)

    Children obeying their parents (Colossians 3:20)

    Giving thanks in all circumstances (1 Thessalonians 5:18)

    Burnt offering (Exodus 29:18)

    Sharing of what we have to others (Hebrews 13:16)

    Giving the Kingdom to the saints (Luke 12:32)

    Revealing Christ to Paul who was set apart and Called to his ministry to the Gentiles from before birth (Galatians 1:15)

    When God smelled the burnt offering Noah gave Him (Genesis 8:20-22)

    Preaching the folly of the Cross to save those that believe (1 Corinthians 1:21)

    To pray that everyone has a peaceful, quiet, godfly, and dignified life (1 Timothy 2:1-4)

    For widows to ask their parents for financial help (1 Timothy 5:4)

    Keeping the faith (Hebrews 10:35-39)

    Making Israel God’s possession (1 Samuel 12:22)

    Israel when it is brought back from exile (Ezekiel 20:41)

    The young son of Jeroboam (1 Kings 14:12-14)

    God’s covenant with David that his kingdom be established forever (1 Chronicles 17:27)

    God had pleasure in David before making him king over Israel (1 Chronicles 28:4)

    Wisdom (Proverbs 3:17)

    To do justice, love kindness, and walk humbly with God is more pleasing than sacrifice and burnt offering (Micah 6:6-8)

    Hosea 10:10 shows God executes justice when it pleases Him to.

    The temple of God (Haggai 1:8)


    Adding to this are the following observations from scripture:

    Hezekiah claims righteousness from his actions and is rewarded with longer life in Isaiah 38:1-8

    Isaiah 5:7 compares Israel to a pleasant plant planted by God

    Romans 8:8 shows in the context of Romans 8:1-11 that God is displeased with those who gratify their flesh instead of living by the Spirit of God in believers.

    Hebrews 12:4-13 tells us God scourges and discipline His children, God is certainly pleased by this even if His children view it as painful.

    Luke 10:21 and Matthew 11:25 show God is pleased to hide the truths Jesus teaches from the wise and learned to instead give them to humble servants

    Mark 12:33 shows God is more pleased by love for God with all our being and love of neighbor than any burnt offerings or sacrifices.

    Hosea 6 in context shows God desires mercy and the knowledge of God and He does not desire sacrifices or burnt offerings without such. This becomes more evident given Psalm 40:6. Psalm 50:7-15 shows God wants are vows to His commandments fulfilled and that we call upon Him in our day of trouble. Psalm 51:16-17 adds that God desires a contrite and broken spirit before sacrifice. Isaiah 1:10-20 exhorts us to do right, seek justice, correct the oppressor, defend the fatherless, plead the case of the widow before burnt offering and sacrifice. Giving God praise and thanksgiving is better than burnt offerings and sacrifices. Jeremiah 6:19-20 shows God takes no pleasure in sacrifice and burnt offering if there is rejection of His Law and no attention paid to His Words.

    When people turn from sin to live Ezekiel 18:23 and Ezekiel 33:11. God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked or of anyone (Ezekiel 18:23, 32).

    Isaiah 56:4 shows God rewards those that please Him.

    Isaiah 42:21 shows God is pleased to have made His Law great and glorious.

    1 Samuel 15:22 tells us obedience and attentiveness please God more than burnt offerings and sacrifices, which still please God

    Proverbs 21:3 tells us to do the right thing and justice are more pleasing to God than sacrifice

    Ephesians 5:2 tells us Jesus Christ was a pleasing offering to God

    1 Thessalonians 4:1-5 show believers must learn to control their own actions.

    Psalm 147:11 raises a question do we fear God and steadfastly love Him before regeneration?

    Psalm 69:30-31 shows that we can praise God with song and thank Him to please Him. Did that act to please God require regeneration?

    1 Kings 3:10 shows us Solomon does something of his own volition that pleases God.

    Philippians 2:12-16 tells the Colossians to work out their salvation in fear and trembling doing good because it is God in them working in them to will and act for His pleasure. They are immediately told not to complain or argue while doing anything.

    Psalm 149:4 tells us God takes pleasure in His people Israel

    Hebrews 11:5-6 Enoch is commended for pleasing God, it is why he never saw death

    Ephesians 5:8-10 tell us we must discern what is pleasing to God

    John 8:29 tells us Jesus always does what pleases God

    1 Thessalonians 4:1-3 tells us the apostles teach how to please God, it is to obey God’s commandments in sanctification, in the case of the Thesallonaians especially to abstain from sexual sin.

    Colossians 1:9-10 tells us to seek God’s will to please Him with our walk

    1 Chronicles 29:17 has a man claiming uprightness of his own heart and that God tests the heart and is pleased with uprightness. This also segues with 1 Thessalonians 2:4.

    The scriptures are full of pleas to please God rather than displeasure Him with our actions. If it was impossible to choose to please God, then why the constant appeals?
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
Loading...