Catechisms

" you and I actually belong as members to the true Church of Christ"

Ok then lets all get together and do what Jesus states. Make up your mind Am I in the church or not.

Lets hold the council. 1.2 billion say you are wrong.

I'm only saying LETS DO AS JESUS COMMANDS to handle disputes.

 

Only one faith. not 30000. ONE CHURCH. The catholic church had non one to distinct itself from.

Notice you can't name one "Catholic" you swear up and down the "Catholic" split . Give us the names of who and when.

Lets hold council then. You have never held the majority in the debate. 1.2 billion say you are wrong.

And if every catholic on earth disappeared tomorrow, your position is still worthless as a majority of protestants and reformers ARE NOT CALVINIST. You are a sliver of a slice in the pie that is Christianity.

Even without Catholics you would rebel against the command of Jesus to take it to the church. You will accept nothing less then YOU yourself being the head of your own church.

 

The church is made up of all of the livid and dead in Christ, not the RCC itself!

 

The one true church are the members who are redeemed, regardless if RCC/Baptist what ever ?

 

Right. One faith, given by the grace of God to his elect children around the world. Roman Catholic Church denomination not needed. Roman Catholic Church denomination is unrepentant and reprobate.

 

Right because you are the great poombah, You declare I am not elect. You know who is elect or not.

So now that we got the Catholics out of the way. Now what? I want to see Jesus' command. TAKE IT TO THE CHURCH.

 

Church = SAVED PEOPLE ONLY????

Give me the example of one LOSING THEIR SALVATION as Jesus describes here:

15“If your brother sins, go and show him his fault in private; if he listens to you, you have won your brother. 16“But if he does not listen to you, take one or two more with you, so that BY THE MOUTH OF TWR THREE WITNESSES EVERY FACT MAY BE CONFIRMED. 17“If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.


Who are the characters here? The BROTHER who is redeemed. Show his fault, refuses we take few more people to point his wrong......he REFUSES...... we take the "REDEEMED" brother to the church and still refuses?

 

Nope, I am one of millions whom God has graciously chosen to redeem out of rebellion. I am not ashamed to proclaim His amazing grace toward me and I hope and wish his redeeming grace upon others. I do not get to make that decision. I leave that to the same King who chose me.

When we have a need for discipline, the elect, citizens of the Kingdom of God, go to the assembly of elect and we are disciplined as our King has guided in His word.

You seem to think the Roman Catholic Church denomination is the actual elect assembly and only elect assembly. That is patently false thinking. The Roman Catholic Church denomination follows Jezebel and speaks falsely.

 

Where is the loss of salvation in Mathew 18. I don't see it at all.

 

The church has forgotten.
Even the Apostles had to write about the struggle to get people to return to what Jesus taught ... the Judaisers on the one hand and the Gnostics on the other. If the Church had followed the teachings of Jesus ...

[Mark 10:42-45 NASB]

42 Calling them to Himself, Jesus said to them, "You know that those who are recognized as rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them; and their great men exercise authority over them. 43 "But it is not this way among you, but whoever wishes to become great among you shall be your servant; 44 and whoever wishes to be first among you shall be slave of all. 45 "For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many."
​

There would be no grand hierarchy and love of titles and lust after state power to corrupt the local ‘ecclesia’ and grieve the Holy Spirit, so that men would dare submit to the One True Church, the body whose head IS Christ (not apostolic succession or the vicar of Rome or some denominational synod).

 

I am Catholic. The POPE cannot boss me around, neither could the bishop who has the actual jurisdiction.

Google--> servant of the servants of god


Jesus Christ commands.

15“If your brother sins, go and show him his fault in private; if he listens to you, you have won your brother. 16“But if he does not listen to you, take one or two more with you, so that BY THE MOUTH OF TWR THREE WITNESSES EVERY FACT MAY BE CONFIRMED. 17“If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.

You three can't get your story straight and you certainly can't with the MAJORITY of PROTESTANTS who are not CALVINIST.


You guys keep parroting Catholics are not part of the CHURCH to make any rulings.

I'm saying ignore us then, You can't even make a ruling for yourself.

Scripture describes you folks perfectly:

Matthew 23
13“But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you shut off the kingdom of heaven from people; for you do not enter in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in.

 

He said to be in the church you must be a saved individual.

So if there is a contingency that states a person who saved refuses to listen to the church is to be kicked out. Then no salvation.



17“If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.

This is the number one problem you rebel and refuse to do as Jesus Commands.

 

What an odd interpretation you have. I have no idea how you arrive at such a conclusion. The amount of assumptions you are making is equivalent to jumping the Grand canyon while riding on a turtle. I cannot follow your logic at all in relation to Mathew 18.

 

You guys say ONLY SAVED = CHURCH.

So who is being kicked out of the church in Jesus' example. He could never be IN it unless he was Saved.



Logic and Calvinism don't go together.

When your car has no gas in it as you planned, and then try to start it, do you beat it with a stick for not going anywhere?


Beating a dead horse.

You create a being with zero connection with God, separated from Christ 100% Evil, Was hated from the foundation before he was born he was hated.

And then you threaten this toasted being who is already in hell for being separate from God with torture and separation from God, Whom God hates for his own Glory.

You are going to teach us about LOGIC?

 

Scripture says ...

[from Thayer’s Lexicon]
STRONGS NT 1577: ἐκκλησία
ἐκκλησία, ἐκκλεσιας, ἡ (from ἔκκλητος called out or forth, and this from ἐκκαλέω); properly, a gathering of citizens called out from their homes into some public place; an assembly; so used
1. among the Greeks from Thucydides (cf. Herodotus 3, 142) down, an assembly of the people convened at the public place of council for the purpose of deliberating: Acts 19:39.
2. in the Sept. often equivalent to קָהָל, the assembly of the Israelites,Judges 21:8; 1 Chronicles 29:1, etc., especially when gathered for sacred purposes, Deuteronomy 31:30 (Deuteronomy 32:1); Joshua 8:35 (Joshua 9:8), etc.; in the N. T. thus in Acts 7:38; Hebrews 2:12.
3. any gathering or throng of men assembled by chance or tumultuously: Acts 19:32, 41.
4. in the Christian sense,
a. an assembly of Christians gathered for worship: ἐν ἐκκλησία, in the religious meeting, 1 Corinthians 14:19, 35; ἐν ταῖς ἐκκλησίαις, 1 Corinthians 14:34; συνέρχεσθαι ἐν ἐκκλησία, 1 Corinthians 11:18; cf. Winers Grammar, § 50, 4a.
b. a company of Christians, or of those who, hoping for eternal Salvation through Jesus Christ, observe their own religious rites, hold their own religious meetings, and manage their own affairs according to regulations prescribed for the body for order's sake; aa. those who anywhere, in city or village, constitute such a company and are united into one body: Acts 5:11; Acts 8:3; 1 Corinthians 4:17; 1 Corinthians 6:4; Philippians 4:15; 3 John 1:6 (cf. Winer's Grammar, 122 (116)); with specification of place, Acts 8:1; Acts 11:22; Romans 16:1; 1 Corinthians 4:17; 1 Corinthians 6:4; Revelation 2:1, 8, etc.; Θεσσαλονικέων, 1 Thessalonians 1:1; 2 Thessalonians 1:1; Λαοδικέων, Colossians 4:16; with the genitive of the possessor, τοῦ Θεοῦ (equivalent to יְהוָה קֲהַל, Numbers 16:3; Numbers 20:4), 1 Corinthians 11:22; and mention of the place, 1 Corinthians 1:2; 2 Corinthians 1:1. Plural, αἱ ἐκκλησίαι: Acts 15:41; 1 Corinthians 7:17; 2 Corinthians 8:19; Revelation 1:4; Revelation 3:6, etc.; with τοῦ Θεοῦ added, 1 Thessalonians 2:14; 2 Thessalonians 1:4; τοῦ Χριστοῦ, Romans 16:16; with mention of the place, as τῆςἈσίας, Γαλατίας, etc.: 1 Corinthians 16:1, 19; 2 Corinthians 8:1; Galatians 1:2; τῆς Ἰουδαίας ταῖς ἐν Χριστῷ, joined to Christ (see ἐν, I. 6b.), i. e. Christian assemblies, in contrast with those of the Jews, Galatians 1:22; ἐκκλησίαι τῶν ἐθνῶν, gathered from the Gentiles, Romans 16:4; τῶν ἁγίων, composed of the saints, 1 Corinthians 14:33. ἡ ἐκκλησία κατ' οἶκον τίνος, the church in one's house, i. e. the company of Christians belonging to a person's family; others less aptly understand the phrase of the Christians accustomed to meet for worship in the house of someone (for as appears from 1 Corinthians 14:23, the whole Corinthian church was accustomed to assemble in one and the same place; (but see Lightfooton Colossians 4:15)): Romans 16:5; 1 Corinthians 16:19; Colossians 4:15; Philemon 1:2. The name ἡ ἐκκλησία is used even by Christ while on earth of the company of his adherents in any city or village: Matthew 18:17. bb. the whole body of Christians scattered throughout the earth; collectively, all who worship and honor God and Christ in whatever place they may be: Matthew 16:18 (where perhaps the Evangelist employs τήν ἐκκλησίαν although Christ may have said τήν βασιλείαν μου); 1 Corinthians 12:28; Ephesians 1:22; Ephesians 3:10; Ephesians 5:23ff,27,29,32; Philippians 3:6; Colossians 1:18, 24; with the genitive of the possessor: τοῦ κυρίου, Acts 20:28 (R Tr marginal reading WH τοῦ Θεοῦ); τοῦ Θεοῦ, Galatians 1:13; 1 Corinthians 15:9; 1 Timothy 3:15. cc. the name is transferred to the assembly of faithful Christians already dead and received into heaven: Hebrews 12:23 (on this passage see in ἀπογράφω, b. and πρωτότοκος, at the end). (In general, see Trench, § 1, and B. D. under the word , especially American edition; and for patristic usage Sophocles Lexicon, under the word.)

 

I read it.

The highest authority is GOD. We take our orders directly from God.

1776 "Deep within his conscience man discovers a law which he has not laid upon himself but which he must obey. Its voice, ever calling him to love and to do what is good and to avoid evil, sounds in his heart at the right moment. . . . For man has in his heart a law inscribed by God. . . . His conscience is man's most secret core and his sanctuary. There he is alone with God whose voice echoes in his depths."47

1777 Moral conscience,48 present at the heart of the person, enjoins him at the appropriate moment to do good and to avoid evil. It also judges particular choices, approving those that are good and denouncing those that are evil.49 It bears witness to the authority of truth in reference to the supreme Good to which the human person is drawn, and it welcomes the commandments. When he listens to his conscience, the prudent man can hear God speaking.

1782 Man has the right to act in conscience and in freedom so as personally to make moral decisions. "He must not be forced to act contrary to his conscience. Nor must he be prevented from acting according to his conscience, especially in religious matters."53

Suppose there was a catholic that thinks the church is in the wrong. He would be obligated to follow his conscience against the church. And if he doesn't it is SIN.

You need to understand we are taking orders from God.


Pope is a job. Don't matter who is sitting in it. When God speaks to you, you have your own obligations and responsibilities.

The important position if you will is SAINTHOOD. Clergy do the clerical stuff. But out in the trenches there are saints under the direct command of God.

 

Unless you explain yourself, Your telling me I am right.

 

Again, you equate being disciplined and removed from fellowship with everyone being a Christian. Yet Jesus tells us that there are wolves among the sheep.

Matthew 7:15-20 “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves. You will recognize them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? So, every healthy tree bears good fruit, but the diseased tree bears bad fruit. A healthy tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a diseased tree bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus you will recognize them by their fruits.

What to do with a brother who refuses to repent?

Matthew 18:15-20 “If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every charge may be established by the evidence of two or three witnesses. If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church. And if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector. Truly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosedin heaven. Again I say to you, if two of you agree on earth about anything they ask, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven. For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I among them."

How does Paul apply this?

1 Corinthians 5:1-13 It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that is not tolerated even among pagans, for a man has his father’s wife. And you are arrogant! Ought you not rather to mourn? Let him who has done this be removed from among you. For though absent in body, I am present in spirit; and as if present, I have already pronounced judgment on the one who did such a thing. When you are assembled in the name of the Lord Jesus and my spirit is present, with the power of our Lord Jesus, you are to deliver this man to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord. Your boasting is not good. Do you not know that a little leaven leavens the whole lump? Cleanse out the old leaven that you may be a new lump, as you really are unleavened. For Christ, our Passover lamb, has been sacrificed. Let us therefore celebrate the festival, not with the old leaven, the leaven of malice and evil, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth. I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people— not at all meaning the sexually immoral of this world, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world. But now I am writing to you not to associate with anyone who bears the name of brother if he is guilty of sexual immorality or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or swindler—not even to eat with such a one. For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge? God judges those outside. “Purge the evil person from among you.”

What does Paul say when the man repents?

2 Corinthians 2:5-11 Now if anyone has caused pain, he has caused it not to me, but in some measure—not to put it too severely—to all of you. For such a one, this punishment by the majority is enough, so you should rather turn to forgive and comfort him, or he may be overwhelmed by excessive sorrow. So I beg you to reaffirm your love for him. For this is why I wrote, that I might test you and know whether you are obedient in everything. Anyone whom you forgive, I also forgive. Indeed, what I have forgiven, if I have forgiven anything, has been for your sake in the presence of Christ, so that we would not be outwitted by Satan; for we are not ignorant of his designs.

Right after Jesus teaching on church discipline what does Jesus say?

Matthew 18:21-22 Then Peter came up and said to him, “Lord, how often will my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? As many as seven times?” Jesus said to him, “I do not say to you seven times, but seventy-seven times.

Utilyan, you seem incapable of understanding outside of the paradigm you have about the church of Rome. Let scripture change your paradigm about Rome. Your church has failed to have scripture be grater than its tradition.

 

But the fearful, and idolaters, and all liars, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Woe of the idolaters. Woe of the sorcerers. Woe of the world of the Devil with his devilish idolater religions , and sects, false Christinanty, and all kind of evil doers. As it is written, and the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk: neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts.

The wrath of God will fall upon all them in this corrent time, there will be great punishments, only and only punishments, - the order is to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will - Revelation 11:v.6.

Only the true people of God will be saved, in the same way as it happened in Egypt: Exodus 12:12-13

12 For I will pass through the land of Egypt this night, and will smite all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, both man and beast; and against all the gods of Egypt I will execute JUDGMENT: I am the Lord.
13 And the blood shall be to you for a token upon the houses where ye are: and when I see the blood, I will pass over you, and the plague shall not be upon you to destroy you, when I smite the land of Egypt.

Malachi 3:v.16-17
16 Then they that feared the Lord spake often one to another: and the Lord hearkened, and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before Him for them that feared the Lord, and that thought upon his name.

17 And they shall be mine, saith the Lord of hosts, in that Day when I make up my jewels; and I will spare them, as a man spareth his own son that serveth him. - This Day has arrived -

18 Then shall ye return, and discern between the righteous and the wicked, between him that serveth God and him that serveth him not.

Yeah, then you will see the difference between the righteous and the wicked, between the person who serves God and one that doesn’t serve Him.

 

I apologize for my post. I deleted it because I was responding to you as a person rather than to the topic. Apparently I was too slow in my deletion to spare you my inappropriate response.

You sometimes annoy me, but that is my problem. I need to learn greater self control.

Obey or ignore the Pope as it pleases you, it is none of my business.