What is necessary to become saved?

Wrong!
How much do you pay God for the sun that shines?
How much work do you labor for the rain that falls?
What are the payments that you make (because according to you there is no free lunch)?
Is the air that you breathe free (or just polluted because of man's sin)?
Is it only because of God's free unmerited grace that he doesn't change the basic composition of the air (78% Nitrogen and 21% Oxygen)? He could change it so that we would all smother to death. But because of his free unmerited grace he doesn't.
Who keeps your heart beating, and why? Do you merit that as well? You may say that you exercise and eat healthy. Who gave you the food to eat, the means to exercise? You could have been born disabled, even a quadrapelegic.
We are surrounded by God's free unmerited grace all around us and yet fail to realize it.
Salvation is a free gift. The gift of God is eternal life. It is unmerited. You do nothing to merit it. If it is eternal it cannot be lost. If it could be lost then Jesus Christ would be a liar for eternal would no longer be eternal it would only be termporary. He was the one who said "I give unto you eternal life." Was he telling the truth or was he lying? Eternal means eternal, and grace is always unmerited.
DHK

 

I admit that there is a distinction in the two ACTS of spirit and water baptism, but they are still apart of the same "one baptism". In that period of Acts, the Holy Spirit was just starting to be given to people, so some managed to be baptized before receiving the Spirit. Just like now where we have conversion, and baptism might not follow for any length of time afterwards, back then, it was the other way around, and people were baptized, but that in itself did not put them into Christ until the Spirit was given. Afterwards, people would always receive the Spirit first, then be baptized, or at most, at the same time. This all the more proves which "baptism" completes the "one baptism". However, what you're saying completely casts out spirit baptism altogether as invalid!

If the "one baptism" is water only, then they should not have needed anything else in the example you have used. The "baptism into one body by one spirit" then is not only uneccesary, it is a COUNTERFEIT, because it is "another baptism" besides the "ONE", much like "another Lord" another faith", "another Gospel". Therefore, nobody is spiritually IN Christ's body, only physically immersed into a pool of water, which apparently has some "real presence" of the blood you "come in contact with" just like the Catholists believe regarding communion. There is no such thing as being "born again" (like the JW's and Armstrong believe; --remember, there is only one baptism, and spirit baptism is "another" baptism, and therefore false!) And since there is no Spirit in our walk, it is all by the letter, and the flesh, just like the OT. So lets go and circle the gates of hell 7 times, and then maybe it will fall, and that will save us. (NOT!!!)

This is what you have to resort to to maintain your position. Mine does't blow apart, it's yours that blows itself apart. You have yet to address all of this, but think only your reiterating of your points on "one baptism" proves something when it doesn't.

 

DHK said:
"Salvation is a free gift. The gift of God is eternal life. It is unmerited. You do nothing to merit it."

ok. so to get salvation i dont have to do anything to get it. so i dont have to repent, i dont have to live uprightly. dont have to depart from iniquity.

sweet. i'll live a hypocritical life then.
that's sick.

its not us that is doing it. again the scripture says "NNE COMES TO THE SON UNLESS THE FATHER DRAWS HIM."

not exact wording but you get the picture.
its ViceVersa as well.

so. essentially what you are saying is that i can live a rotten life - and still have grace. because grace is a free gift from God. Salvation is a free gift from God.

one can accept Jesus as their Lord - and still not have grace! no?

 

Eric,
I have found that when the rubber meets the road, the COC does not believe in salvation by grace through faith. Rather they believe in salvation by works. They say that man must work their way to heaven through five separate acts in order to get there. That is not grace.

Jesus paid it all,
All to Him I owe;
Sin had left a crimson stain,
He washed it white as snow.

For nothing good have I
Whereby Thy grace to claim,
I’ll wash my garments white
In the blood of Calv’ry’s Lamb.
-- Elvina M. Hall, 1865.

"Whereby thy grace to claim"
There is nothing I can do to merit it. Jesus paid it all. I just need to accept it by faith. Nothing good have I (not baptism, not anything). Just accept what Jesus did by faith and faith alone.
DHK

 

that whole "come as you are" deal eh?

well. if you aint humble before God. He's going to resist ya.

 

2 Timothy 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Someone on this board said that repentance and faith are two sides of the same coin, which is correct. Believing in Christ involves repentance. One cannot have true faith without repentance. They go hand in hand. If I truly believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, then he has just become my Lord, master; and I his slave, servant. The prior relationship I had has changed. I once was a servant to the world; now I am a servant to Christ. At the time of salvation Christ, by the power of his Holy Spirit, comes and dwells within me and gradually changes my life. If there is no change in my life from the time that I trusted Christ, it is likely that I never trusted Christ in the first place. It is a given fact that when one trusts Christ as His Saviour He will change your life! Thus the scenario you put forth is moot.

Yes it is sick. That type of Christianity doesn't exist.

So now you admit that there is a work of the Holy Spirit in the conversion of a sinner when he comes to Christ. If that is the case, then why should it be so hard for you to believe that there will be a change in his life?

I don't know what you mean. The verse simply means that the Holy Spirit is involved in the conversion of a sinner. In fact you have a beautiful picture of the trinity. When a person comes to Christ, it is the Father that draws him, the Holy Spirit that convicts him, and Christ is the one that he trusts. There is no one that Christ will ever refuse.

It depends what you mean by a rotten life.
The Christian life is a life described by Paul:

Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
--Paul says that Christ now lives in him.
But he also says that he is crucified with Christ. He has said no to the world, to sin, to all that is evil and worldly.
In 1Cor.15:31 he says: "I die daily." Every day he puts his body to death.
In Rom. 12:1 he says: to "present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy acceptable unto God."
In Rom. 6:11 he says: "Likewise reckon ye yourselves dead indeed unto sin."

Is that your idea of living a rotten life? That is the Christian life. It is a life of self-denial, and yet a glorious life to live. Salvation is still free. No man can take it from you. God is not a liar. The Holy Spirit changes a person. Draw nigh to God and he will draw nigh to you.

That is not what the Bible says:

Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

 

"So now you admit that there is a work of the Holy Spirit in the conversion of a sinner when he comes to Christ. If that is the case, then why should it be so hard for you to believe that there will be a change in his life?"

i've admitted that. and known that since the beginning of this thread, and for a long time before.


what i mean by rotten life is a sinful life. not persecutions and what not. that was promised. persecutions that is.


that verse in ephesians does not support your side.
explain to me this then:

in matthew, where it says something like "many will say Lord Lord, and I will say to them, depart from me ye workers of iniquity, i never knew you."
it also says something along the lines of "did we not prophesy in your name? cast out demons in your name? heal in your name? etc"

that means they acccepted Jesus as Lord. right? they were trying to live like Christ. they were labelled as christians. yet had no grace because God judged them according to their iniquity.

we cannot have grace if we are not humble. James 4:6
we must repent of our sin. if we dont, we are not humble, and therefore we will not recieve grace.
we must walk uprightly in the Lord. psalms 84:11. if we do not walk uprightly, God will withold that which is good. which is grace.

now listen to this. We accept Jesus as Lord and Savior. then there is the change. at that change of heart, there is humbleness, repentance, and a desire to walk uprightly. therefore recieving grace. but if one accepts Jesus as Lord and Savior and there is not a change. (remember the bible is black and white in this issue - hot or cold) if there is no change after acceptance - if there is no repentance towards God (but a noticable repentance of sin horizontally - which is not what repentance is. its vertical) and therefore that person will not walk uprightly because there is no conviction in his heart.
therefore God will withold that which is good. which is grace. God will resist the proud, and give grace to the humble.

that make more sense? we do not recieve grace at the moment of our acceptance - just like our growth in the Lord - it is gradual. a true convert God will give grace though. because he is humble - repentant towards God - and will desire to walk uprightly and abhor evil.

yet a false convert - stony ground hearer. will not receive grace from God because he is not humble - either repentant horizontally or not repentant at all - and does not desire to walk uprightly most of the time but loves sin for a season because it is pleasurable.

that make more sense where this comin from?

 

Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.
--Yes it most certainly supports my position. You see salvation is not of works. Neither is the Christian life. It is all of the grace of God. We are saved by grace, and we walk by faith according to the grace of God freely given to us. Without the grace of God freely bestowed upon us we would all be in Hell this day.
You talk of merited grace. There is no such thing. If I got what I deserved I would be in Hell today there spending a Christless eternity enduring nothing but the wrath of God. What do I deserve? I don't deserve anything but God's wrath. God doesn't owe me anything, and it is presumptious to say that God does. He is my Creator; I am his slave. He owes me nothing. What have I merited? Nothing!

No. It doesn't mean that they accepted Jesus as their Saviour. It means the very opposite. Read the context in Matthew chapter 7. Jesus is speaking of false teachers and false prophets.

Matthew 7:15-16 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
--Beware of false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing but inwardly they are ravenly wolves. That is they are unsaved. I like to use Benny Hinn as an example here. I don't believe he is saved. His doctrine when examined clearly points to another Christ, another god, a false gospel. He believes in a nine-person trinity and denies the deity of Christ. With that kind of theology the man cannot be saved.

Matthew 7:21-23 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Thus people like Benny Hinn will someday stand before God and say: "Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils, and in thy name done many wonderful works?"
--Certainly his works will seem to be that way to much of the world. But Hinn is not saved. His works seem to be that of healing, wonderful works, preaching the gospel, calling Jesus Lord, etc. But his Jesus is not the Jesus of the Bible. Hence Jesus will say: "Depart from ye that work iniquity."
--He was never saved in the first place. He never accepted the free gift of God; the grace of God, in the first place.

You are looking at things backwards. None of us deserve grace whether we are proud or humble. We don't deserve God's grace. God doesn't owe us anything. If he gives the humble more grace it is because he chooses to do so, not because we deserve it; not because we merit it. But rather because he chooses to do so. You cannot merit grace. We deserve only the wrath of God, nothing more.

Who are you to judge?
The Bible says:
The heart is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked who can know it? Only God knows the heart whether a person is really saved or not. Again the Bible says: "The Lord knows them that are his," not you.
Again, God gives grace to whom he will. It is not your decision. God is sovereign. Grace is his free unmerited favor toward man. We don't deserve it. The psalmist complained when he saw the wicked prosper and the beleiver languish in desperation. Often that is the case. But the Lord knows our needs, and as he said to Paul: "My grace is sufficient for you." He takes care of us. It is not our business to question God, but to accept his ways. He is sovereign and knows best for us.

No, it doesn't make sense. Although in a general sense God will give grace to the humble, the believer must not think of that as a deserving promise, that is, that he is deserving of God's grace because he has been a good boy and has been humble these past two weeks. I am sorry that is not how it works. God doesn't owe you a thing! You don't deserve God's grace no matter who you are and how humble you may be. No one deserves God's grace. Grace is undeserved merit all the time. If God wishes to withold that grace, that is up to him. As we grow in Christ, we will grow in the grace and knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ. That much is true. We will experience more of God's grace. But we don't deserve it. That is what is key here. We must always keep that in mind. We don't deserve the grace of God. That is why the Apostle Paul cried out that he above all people was "the chiefest of all sinners." He didn't believe that he was worthy of the grace of God.

An unsaved person will not get saved because he will reject the saving work of Christ offered to him. He rejects it on the basis of faith. By faith I either reject or accept what God has to offer. It was God's grace that prompted Christ to offer himself on the cross for our sins. We must either accept or reject that offer of his grace. If we reject it there is no more offering for sin. We are condemned for all eternity.

Thus: "For by grace are ye saved through faith and not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not of works les any man should boast. Salvation is not earned. It is a gift to be accepted by faith, and provided by grace. It is totally unmerited.

It comes from God, and is totally unmerited. It is the free unmerited favor of God no matter which way you cut it.
DHK

 

i never said God owes anybody anything.

notice a few posts ago where claudia and I clarified that "merited" is not the right term.

i know we are not saved by works. duh.
i know only God knows the heart of man. duh.
who am i to judge? well the bible doesn't say "thou shalt not judge others" it says "judge not lest ye be judged" in other words, dont judge unrighteously lest ye will be judged accordingly. with the help of God and the Holy spirit through us judges righteously according to scripture (1Timothy 3:16 "all scripture is profitable for correction, reproof, rebuke etc...")

but i will not say anymore on this subject because this could go back and forth for 10 more pages... besides. you dont understand what im getting at. not at all.

God bless.

 

I'll try to summarize what im saying:

God will not give us grace if:
-we are not humble.
-we are not repentant of our sin towards God.
-we do not walk uprightly.

God will give us grace if:
-we are humble before Him.
-we do have a repentant heart towards God.
-we do walk uprightly.

now listen here: I know it is nothing of our own doing to do these things. i never said it was us. it is the holy spirit working in us. otherwise we wouldn't beable to do them. those three are key to beable to prepare our hearts for grace. the holy spirit helps us to do those. nothing of our own.

 

here's a little something i got in an e-mail.

IS GOD'S GRACE UNMERITED FAVOR?