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Featured Understanding the 1,260-year Prophecy, the starting point.

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Hobie, Mar 25, 2020.

  1. Hobie

    Hobie Well-Known Member

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    This is a good study on the starting point of the 1260-year prophecy, and easy to grasp:

    "But with the rise of Napoleon, and the exile into captivity of the pope by French general Berthier, there was a rare moment of near prophetic unanimity among Protestant expositors, who declared that this period ended in A.D. 1798. It was a matter, then, of running the period backward to find the starting point, which would be A.D. 538....A careful study of Daniel 7:24-26 and some related prophetic passages reveals that the decisive events of the terminal moments of the 1,260 years should be understood primarily legally, rather than militarily. Once this legal framework is understood and given its due weight it becomes clearer how the 538 event relates to the 1798 event. In a nutshell, the Justinian Code, which was completed in 534, 'enacted orthodox Christianity into law,' placed the pope as the formal head of Christendom, 'ordered all Christian groups to submit to [his] authority,' and gave him civil power of life and death over heretics.

    This code, however, did not become legally promulgated and enacted on the ground until the siege of Rome was lifted in 538. Justinian's general, Belisarius, had entered Rome unopposed at the end of 536, but shortly thereafter the Ostrogoths came and laid siege to Rome. After about a year the siege was broken, and Belisarius had control of Rome and its environs.5 It was then that the provisions of the code elevating the Papacy could actually be implemented by Belisarius beyond the borders of Rome itself. The Gothic Wars continued, with the Ostrogoths being finally driven out in 553.

    But these later battles and sieges did not nullify the papal-centered legal system that had been put into place in 538. Even when Rome fell again to the Goths, they did not control the Papacy, as at that time it was operating outside Rome. After 538, Adventist scholar Jean Zukowski observed, 'the papacy never came back under the control of the Ostrogothic kings.'7 The papal system, placed at the head of Christendom and given the power of life and death over heretics by the Justinian Code, endured in the West for more than 1,000 years, being given a great boost in the legal revolutions of the eleventh and twelfth centuries, forming the legal scaffolding of many modern states.8 That is, until the secular revolutions of the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries, where the code and its religious character were explicitly rejected.

    These secular revolutions began with the French Revolution, which soon led to the capture and exile of the pope by Berthier in 1798. But again, more significant than the military/political event of the capture and exile was the replacement of the religious-centric Justinian Code by the secular Napoleonic Code. The secular code was implemented by the famous bill number 8 of February 15, 1798, where General Berthier declared Rome an independent republic and 'in consequence, every other temporal authority emanating from the old government of the Pope, is suppressed, and it shall no more exercise any function."... Understanding the 1,260-year Prophecy | Adventist World
     
  2. Hobie

    Hobie Well-Known Member

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    You find the time period covering 1260 days in one form or another in Daniel and Revelation:

    Revelation 11:3 King James Version (KJV)
    3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

    Revelation 12:6 King James Version (KJV)
    6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

    You have to understand that the 1260 is prophetic years which is one day equals a year. The day-year principle, year-day principle or year-for-a-day principle is a method of interpretation of Bible prophecy in which the word day in prophecy is considered to be symbolic of a year of actual time.

    The fact that a day can signify a year is of crucial importance in the study of Bible Prophecy. This view was recognized by the Jews as seen in Daniel 9:24-27, and as seen in Jesus' use of the day-year principle in Luke 13 verses 31-33, and in the early church. The Reformers and many others, Martin Luther, John Calvin, Ulrich Zwingli, John Wycliffe, John Knox, William Tyndale, Phillip Melanchthon, Sir Isaac Newton, Jan Huss, John Foxe, John Wesley, Jonathan Edwards, George Whitefield, Charles Finney, C. H. Spurgeon, Matthew Henry, Adam Clarke, Albert Barnes, E. B. Elliot, H. Grattan Guinness, and Bishop Thomas Newton understood this to name just a few.

    The principle is that in Bible prophecy, you must substitute a period of a year in place of a day. This is the day=year principle. This equation is clearly established in scripture:

    Numbers 14:34
    King James Version (KJV)
    34 After the number of the days in which ye searched the land, even forty days, each day for a year, shall ye bear your iniquities, even forty years, and ye shall know my breach of promise.

    In this verse, a relationship between day and year is clear, each day will equate to a literal year. For the forty days that Israel spied in Canaan in unbelief, they would be punished by wandering forty years in the desert.


    Ezekiel 4:6
    King James Version (KJV)
    6 And when thou hast accomplished them, lie again on thy right side, and thou shalt bear the iniquity of the house of Judah forty days: I have appointed thee each day for a year.

    Here again, the equation is stated quite openly, a prophetic day represents a literal year.
     
  3. Hobie

    Hobie Well-Known Member

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    Lets go over the prophetic time periods to be found in scripture is the time, times and half a time which is mentioned in Daniel and Revelation:

    Daniel 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

    Daniel 12:7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.

    Revelation 12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

    If we look back to Daniel we see the word 'time' in this context refers to a period of a year. In the story of King Nebuchadnezzar, he went crazy for seven years and ate grass as an ox as seen in Daniel 4:32:

    Daniel 4:32 And they shall drive thee from men, and thy dwelling shall be with the beasts of the field: they shall make thee to eat grass as oxen, and seven times shall pass over thee, until thou know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will.

    So in prophetic reading we see the days equal years, so lets look how many days are in a time, times and half a time, it means time (or 1 year), times (or 2 years) and half a time (or 1/2 year) or a total of 3 1/2 years. Most people who look at it would stop at this point and accept the 3 1/2 years only at face value.

    But these are prophetic years so each day is a year and 3 1/2 years would be 3 1/2 times a Jewish year of 360 days (360 x 3.5= 1260) so comes out to 1260 days, and a prophetic day equals a year so you can calculate it to actually represent 1260 literal years. So, 'Time, Times and half a Time' in prophecy is really 1260 years. Now you see how to confirm this formula we need only to look at the book of Revelation.

    Revelation 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

    Here the woman represents the faithful church, who flees into the wilderness for 1260 days. Again using the day=year formula, this actually speaks of 1260 years that the church would be persecuted. Now we look at verse 14:

    Revelation 12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

    Here the exact same time of persecution is referred to as 3 1/2 times, again meaning the same period of 1260 days/years as found in verse 6. In the book of Daniel, we saw this exact same period of persecution in church history:

    Daniel 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

    This verse in context is referring to a period of time that the little horn or Antichrist power will persecute the true believers or true church, again for 1260 years. The same is true for the time given "that it shall be for a time, times, and an half" for Daniel 12:7
     
    #3 Hobie, Mar 25, 2020
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2020
  4. Hobie

    Hobie Well-Known Member

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    So many people today wonder why isnt a year equal to 365 days as we hold today.. But you have to understand that in ancient times the year was held to be at 360 days. The fact that the prophets understood a year as 360 days is well attested, and can be seen in the prophecies of Daniel and Revelation as we saw in the use of "time, times and half a time" "1,260 days" and "42 months". These references clearly represent a period of 1260 years (based on the 360 day Jewish year multiplied by 3.5). Divide 1,260 days by 42 months and you will get a 30-day month, as 12 months of 30 days equals 360-days in a year

    Here are time periods:
    Daniel 7:25, "time, times and a half".
    Daniel 9:27, "half one set of seven".
    Daniel 12:7, "time, times and a half".
    Revelation 11:2, "42 months".
    Revelation 11:3, "1260 days".
    Revelation 12:6, "1260 days".
    Revelation 12:14, "time, times and a half".
    Revelation 13:5, "42 months".

    So its clear, the "time, times and half a time" (i.e. 1+2+0.5=3.5), "1,260 days" and "42 months" mentioned in Daniel and Revelation represent a period of 1260 years (based on the 360 day Jewish year multiplied by 3.5).

    The "1,260 days" spanned the Middle Ages and historicists throughout history have identified the "1,260 days" as being fulfilled by rise of the Papacy and its temporal power being taken, from 538 AD to 1798, or Napoleon's Roman Republic.

    So scripture has clear prophecy at to who this apostate Antichrist power which persecutes and burns at the stake the true believers.

    History tells us....

    https://www.history.com/topics/religion/inquisition
     
    #4 Hobie, Mar 25, 2020
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2020
  5. Hobie

    Hobie Well-Known Member

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    Historians and even Catholic scholars have agreed to the time period, that we are given as a period of 1260 years of Papal Supremacy:

    "And now that the temporal power of the Roman Pontiffs belongs to the past, that the head of the Church must under heaven depend for its maintenance upon the generosity of his spiritual children throughout the world, that a usurper holds the throne from which the Pope ruled for a thousand years, while its rightful owner is a prisoner in his own city...

    Long ages ago, when Rome through the neglect of the Western emperors was left to the mercy of barbarous hordes, Romans turned to one figure for aid and protection and asked him to rule them; and thus in this simple manner, the best title of all to kingly right, commenced the temporal sovereignty of the Popes. And meekly stepping to the throne of Caesar, the Vicar of Christ took up the sceptre to which the emperors and kings of Europe were to bow in reverence through so many ages, from sentiments of respect for the dignity of his office and because he was the only mediator whom they recognized in their almost interminable wars."
    Source: Two Romes, by James P. Conry, in The American Catholic Quarterly Review, Volume XXXVI (36), edited by James Andrew Corcoran, Patrick John Ryan, Edmond Francis Prendergast, 1911, pgs. 193-194.


    "... the right to her Temporal Sovereignty is an integral right of the Church as constituted by her Divine Founder. It has prevailed de facto for more than twelve hundred years, and has been possessed de jure by Divine Natural Law from the beginning of Christianity, ..."
    Source: The Victories of Rome and the Temporal Monarchy of the Church, 5th edition, By Kenelm Digby Best, London, 1906, pg. xii.

    "Rome has been a government under the Popes for some twelve hundred years."
    Source: Complete Works of the Most Rev. John Hughes, Archbishop of New York, 1866, Volume 2. pg. 778

    "They may say, indeed, that for the first three hundred years there was no Pope seated at Rome. But, then, for twelve hundred years there had been; and, during that period, all the nations of Europe, and some part of America, had become Christian, and all acknowledged the Pope as their head in religious matters; and, in short, there was no other Christian Church known in the world, nor had any other ever been thought of. Can we believe, then, that Christ, who died to save sinners, who sent forth his gospel as the means of their salvation, would have suffered a false Christian religion, and no other than a false Christian religion, to be known amongst men all this while? Will these modest assailants of the faith of their and our ancestors assert to our faces, that, for twelve hundred years at least, there were no true Christians in the world? Will they tell us, that Christ, who promised to be with the teachers of his word to the end of the world, wholly left them, and gave up hundreds upon hundreds of millions of people to be led in darkness to their eternal perdition, by one whom his inspired followers had denominated the "man of sin, and the scarlet whore"? Will they, indeed, dare to tell us, that Christ gave up the world wholly to "Antichrist" for twelve hundred years?"...

    Source: History of the Protestant Reformation in England and Ireland, Showing How That Event Has Impoverished and Degraded the Main Body of the People in Those Countries, by William Cobbett, published in 1832 in New York by John Doyle, 12 Liberty-street; and Thomas Doyle, Market-street, Providence R.I., pages 6 and 7.

    " I say, then, that it was God's own act which liberated His Vicar upon earth from subjection to temporal power; and that for twelve hundred years the Bishops of Rome have reigned as temporal princes. They have possessed their own. No man has given to them their sovereign rights. They reign there as Christian princes by the providence of God. They are the first example of a Christian monarchy, the first seed of Christian Europe, the first roll of Christian princes....

    It is true, indeed, that in the three centuries between the conversion of Constantine [312 A.D.] and the period of St. Gregory the Great [590-604 A.D.], in those three centuries of turbulence and disorder, invasion and warfare, by which Italy and Rome was afflicted, the temporal power of the Supreme Pontiff was only in its beginning; but about the seventh century it was firmly established, and that which the Divine Providence had prepared from the beginning received its full manifestation; and no sooner was the material power which once reigned in Rome consecrated and sanctified by the investiture of the Vicar of Jesus Christ with the temporal sovereignty over the city where he dwelt, than he began to create throughout Europe the order of Christian civilization...

    The conversion of the empire to Christianity, and then its removal, its banishment into the far East, freed the Vicar of Jesus Christ from temporal subjection; and then, by the action of the same Providence, he was clothed with the prerogatives of a true and proper local sovereignty over that state and territory and people so committed to his charge. From that hour, which I might say was fifteen hundred years ago, or, to speak within limit, I will say was twelve hundred, the Supreme Pontiff has been a true and proper sovereign, exercising the prerogatives of royalty committed to him by the will of God over the people to whom he is father in all things both spiritual and temporal."The 1260 years of Papal Supremacy.

    It just goes on and on...


     
  6. Walter

    Walter Well-Known Member
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    SDA hogwash
     
  7. Hobie

    Hobie Well-Known Member

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    The Reformers held this view, and we see many others...

    "Martin Luther (1483 - 1546)
    "nothing else than the kingdom of Babylon and of very Antichrist. For who is the man of sin and the son of perdition, but he who by his teaching and his ordinances increases the sin and perdition of souls in the church; while he yet sits in the church as if he were God? All these conditions have now for many ages been fulfilled by the papal tyranny." (Martin Luther, First Principles, pp. 196-197)

    John Calvin (1509 - 1564)
    "Though it be admitted that Rome was once the mother of all Churches, yet from the time when it began to be the seat of Antichrist it has ceased to be what it was before. Some persons think us too severe and censorious when we call the Roman Pontiff Antichrist. But those who are of this opinion do not consider that they bring the same charge of presumption against Paul himself, after whom we speak and whose language we adopt .. I shall briefly show that (Paul's words in II Thess. 2) are not capable of any other interpretation than that which applies them to the Papacy." (Institutes of the Christian Religion, Vol.3, p.149)

    The Baptist Confession of Faith (1689)
    "The Lord Jesus Christ is the Head of the church, in whom, by the appointment of the Father, all power for the calling, institution, order or government of the church, is invested in a supreme and sovereign manner; neither can the Pope of Rome in any sense be head thereof, but is that antichrist, that man of sin, and son of perdition, that exalteth himself in the church against Christ." (1689 Baptist Confession of Faith)

    The Westminster Confession of Faith (1646)
    "There is no other head of the Church but the Lord Jesus Christ: nor can the Pope of Rome in any sense be head thereof; but is that Antichrist, that man of sin and son of perdition, that exalts himself in the Church against Christ, and all that is called God." (1646 Westminster Confession of Faith)

    John Wesley (1703 - 1791)
    "... In many respects, the Pope has an indisputable claim to those titles. He is, in an emphatical sense, the man of sin, as he increases all manner of sin above measure. And he is, too, properly styled, the son of perdition, as he has caused the death of numberless multitudes, both of his opposers and followers, destroyed innumerable souls, and will himself perish everlastingly. He it is that opposeth himself to the emperor, once his rightful sovereign; and that exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped - Commanding angels, and putting kings under his feet, both of whom are called gods in scripture; claiming the highest power, the highest honour; suffering himself, not once only, to be styled God or vice-God. Indeed no less is implied in his ordinary title, "Most Holy Lord," or, "Most Holy Father." So that he sitteth - Enthroned. In the temple of God - Mentioned Rev. xi, 1. Declaring himself that he is God - Claiming the prerogatives which belong to God alone." (John Wesley, Explanatory Notes Upon The New Testament, p.216)....What Did The Reformers Believe? - Who is the Antichrist

    Many of them were in the midst of the persecution."
    Wycliffe was born into the very night of Papal darkness when the Pontiffs ruled supreme. The peoples of Europe and of these British Isles were sunken in the very depths of idolatry and superstition. These were the days of 'bleeding bones' and 'winking images', of superstitious relics, masses and indulgences. Not only was this the situation spiri-tually, but those who dared to oppose were treated in the most cruel manner, e.g. The Waldensians and the Albigenses of France and Italy against whom the Papal armies advanced without mercy. At the siege of the city of Beziers, when protests were made that in slaying the inhabitants indescriminateiy some Romanists would perish with the heretics, the Papal Legate commanded: "kill them all, God will know His own".

    In addition the ruthless Inquisition was already commencing its long reign of terror. Man, women and children, rich and poor, high and low were arrested on the slightest suspicion of heresy, and tortured in the most cruel manner before being handed over to the secular authori-ties to be burnt at the stake at the so-called Auto da Fe, or Act of Wycliffe's great work in the midst of superstition and persecution was to translate the Holy Scriptures into the English tongue, so that the people of these islands might read and in reading find Christ, the one Mediator and only way to salvation. So great was the hatred of Papal Rome for John Wycliffe that over forty years after his death they ordered his body to be dug up from the grave and burnt and his ashes to be thrown into the River Swift.

    ...As to the treading down of the Holy City for '42 months', we know that this refers to the period when the Papacy would have un-limited power to persecute the people of God. If we take it that each of the 42 months contained 30 days, this gives us a period of 1260 days, and on the basis of Exekiel Ch. 4 v.6 we can take each day to represent a year, prophetically. So the Papal Beast was to exercise this persecuting power and authority for 42 prophetic months of 1260 years"...The Reformation in Prophecy - Historicist.com

    "The Protestant Reformation, began when Martin Luther posted the Ninety – five theses on the door of the Wittenberg Castle church in 1517. Martin Luther protested the Catholic Church’s corrupt practice of selling “indulgences” to absolve sin and other unbiblical doctrines. The Protestant Reformation caused a great awakening and revival to the Biblical teachings. This caused the papal power to be driven from large areas of Northern Europe.

    Efforts of the papacy to combat the Reformation took such forms as the Inquisition, the Index, and the organization of the Jesuit order. The Jesuits became the intellectual and spiritual army of the church for the extermination of Protestantism. For nearly three centuries. the Church of Rome carried on a vigorous attacks but gradually losing struggle against the forces battling for civil and religious freedom.

    Finally, during the course of the French Revolution, the Catholic Church was outlawed in France. In 1798, the French Government ordered the army operating in Italy under Napoleon’s general Berthier to take the Pope Pius Vl prisoner with the goal of destroying both the political, secular power of the papacy.

    Though the papacy continued, its power was cut, and it has never since exerted the same kind or measure of power that it did in former days."...What’s a brief history of the Protestant Reformation? - BibleAsk
     
  8. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Per Daniel, its 1260 days, not years, and all of this you posted is from the False prophetess ellen White!
     
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  9. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    See A catholic and a Baptist can agree on something!
     
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  10. Hobie

    Hobie Well-Known Member

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    The majority of the Protestant Reformers taught that a prophetic day represented a literal year and that the 1260 days or 42 months allotted to the reign of the Beast represented the 1260 years of supremacy of the Papacy. This is was seen by Bible scholars even from before the time of the Reformers:

    Numbers 14:34 King James Version (KJV)
    34 After the number of the days in which ye searched the land, even forty days, each day for a year, shall ye bear your iniquities, even forty years, and ye shall know my breach of promise.

    In Numbers, the Israelites are about to be cursed and exiled into the wilderness for 40 years.

    Ezekiel 4:6 King James Version (KJV)
    6 And when thou hast accomplished them, lie again on thy right side, and thou shalt bear the iniquity of the house of Judah forty days: I have appointed thee each day for a year.

    In Ezekiel, the people are about to be cursed/besieged in preparation for their exile to Babylon. The day-for-a-year principle is clearly seen in action in both these passages. We even see Jesus' use of the day-year principle in Luke 13:

    Luke 13:31-33 King James Version (KJV)
    31 The same day there came certain of the Pharisees, saying unto him, Get thee out, and depart hence: for Herod will kill thee.
    32 And he said unto them, Go ye, and tell that fox, Behold, I cast out devils, and I do cures to day and to morrow, and the third day I shall be perfected.
    33 Nevertheless I must walk to day, and to morrow, and the day following: for it cannot be that a prophet perish out of Jerusalem.

    In Luke, Jesus is acknowledging the day-for-a-year principle as He knows His ministry was to last for 3 & 1/2 years according to the prophecy in Daniel 9:24-27
     
    #10 Hobie, Mar 25, 2020
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  11. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    In like fashion , daniel referring to last 3 1/2 years under Antichrist!
     
  12. Hobie

    Hobie Well-Known Member

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    It clearly was pointing to Christ, the Messiah, exactly when He came to the Jews and was crucified, but some have twisted it.
     
  13. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    The Prince to come would be the Antichrist!
     
  14. Hobie

    Hobie Well-Known Member

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    Look up "Titus" son of Vespasian, Roman Emperor....
    Here is a good explanation.."he final phrase says, “and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate” (KJV). This is most likely a reference to the final destruction of Jerusalem by the Roman armies in 70 AD. It probably is meant to be after the 70th week (seven) or following the death of the Messiah and his confirming the covenant with the many. This describes the final desolation of Jerusalem and the Temple bringing an end to the Old Testament sacrificial system once and for all. Young comments, “’And upon the wing of abomination (is) one making desolate’…The historical reference, I believe, is found in the destruction of the Temple by Titus. This even must be regarded, not as necessarily falling within the 70th seven, but as consequent upon the action of the Messiah in causing the sacrifice and oblation to cease…’And until the end and that determined shall pour upon the desolate’ or ‘And until the full end which has been determined shall pour upon the desolate.’…The ‘desolate’ is not Titus, i. e., one who is made desolate, but rather is impersonal, that which is desolate, i. e., the ruins of the Temple and city. Thus, since the Messiah has caused sacrifices and oblation to cease, there comes a desolator over the temple, and devastation continues until a full, determined end pours forth upon the desolation.” https://www.oneplace.com/ministries/watchman-radio-hour/read/articles/daniels-seventy-weeks-daniel-92427-14095.html
     
  15. Hobie

    Hobie Well-Known Member

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    Here are a explanation on the reasons why the day-year principle fits what we have in prophecy on this..

    "Reasons for Applying the Year/Day Principle
    Reason #1:
    The expressions ‘time, times and the dividing of time’, ‘42 months’, ‘1260 days’, and ‘70 weeks’, are very peculiar. They could have been expressed in literal language but instead they are given a symbolic flavor. Notice, for example, that Luke 4:25 and James 5:17 refer to the period when there was no rain in the days of Elijah as ‘three years and six months’. This is the normal way of expressing time (see also, Acts 18:11; II Samuel 2:11; I Samuel 27:7).

    It is significant that every measurement of time in prophecy is given a symbolic flavor: hour (Revelation 17:12; 9:13), day (Revelation 12:6), week (Daniel 9:24-27), month (Revelation 13:5), year (Daniel 7:25). It is also significant that non-apocalyptic prophecies express time in literal language: 70 years (Jeremiah 25:11-12), 400 years (Genesis 15:13-15), 120 years (Genesis 6:3) with literal persons performing literal actions!

    Reason #2:
    The symbolic time periods are always found within the context of apocalyptic passages where symbols predominate. For example, the three and one half times are found in the context of four symbolic beasts, a symbolic sea, symbolic winds, symbolic clouds, symbolic horns, and a symbolic little horn.

    Similarly, the 1260 days are found in a context where a symbolic woman, clothed with a symbolic sun, stands on a symbolic moon, with 12 symbolic stars on her head. She is persecuted by a symbolic dragon who has seven symbolic heads, ten symbolic horns and who casts a third of the symbolic stars to the earth.

    In Revelation 13, the 42 months are found within a context where a symbolic composite beast, with ten symbolic horns, receives its power from a symbolic dragon. It also arises from a symbolic sea and later uses a symbolic image beast to impose a symbolic mark!

    The same could be said about Daniel 8. There we have a symbolic ram, a symbolic he-goat, and a symbolic little horn. It only stands to reason that if the scenes where these time periods are found in are symbolic, then the time periods must also be symbolic!!

    Reason #3:
    The little horn of Daniel 7 arose among the ten horns on the head of the fourth beast (Rome). It is clear from history that the Roman Empire was fragmented when the barbarians came from the northern sector of the empire and carved it up. Daniel 7 makes it clear that there are no gaps in the historical flow of nations. The lion is succeeded immediately by the bear, the bear is immediately succeeded by the leopard, the leopard is immediately succeeded by the dragon beast, the dragon beast then sprouts the ten horns and the little horn then arises among the ten.

    Now, if the little horn arose among the ten and the ten were complete in 476 A. D., and the little horn ruled until the judgment (in 1844), then the three and one half times of dominion of the little horn must be 1260 years, and not literal days. If the days were literal, then the little horn would have ruled only from 476-479 A. D. But the fact is that the Roman Catholic Church ruled for 1260 years!!

    Reason #4:
    Daniel 8 makes it crystal clear that the 2300 day prophecy was for the time of the end (Dan. 8:14, 17, 26-27). Daniel 12:4, 7 underscores the fact that the book which contains the 2300 day prophecy would be closed and sealed until the time of the end and therefore could not be understood until then.
    This being the case, those who believe that Antiochus is the little horn of Daniel 8 find themselves in a serious dilemma. Assuming that Antiochus is represented by the little horn of Daniel 8 and that the 2300 days were the literal period of his dominion, a question immediately comes to the fore: Why would we have to wait until the time of the end to understand this? It would simply be a matter of history! If Antiochus was the fulfillment, it should have been understood at that very time.

    It is a matter of record that Josephus, Porphiry and others in the first centuries of the Christian era believed that Antiochus was the little horn of Daniel 8. If they were right then they were living in the time of the end. Yet we know that they were not living in the time of the end because over 2000 years of history have transpired since their time.

    The simple reality is that Antiochus did not fulfill the little horn prophecy. Josephus and others mistakenly identified Antiochus as the fulfillment. They could not have comprehended the little horn prophecy because they did not live in the time of end! It is clear that this prophecy was not present truth in the days of Daniel or Josephus, or even of Martin Luther. None of these men lived in the time of the end and therefore, none of them could have understood this prophecy! It became present truth when the prophecy was fulfilled in 1844. This is why the Millerites preached on this very text. The book of Daniel was being opened and now the time period of the 2300 days could be understood.

    Reason #5:
    The vision of Daniel 8:1-2 covers the whole period of the ram, the he-goat and the little horn until the cleansing of the sanctuary. In Daniel 8:13 the question is asked: ‘Until when shall the vision be? The context indicates that the word vision includes the totality of what Daniel has seen in Daniel 8 to that point. Then, in Daniel 8:15 we are told that Daniel wished to comprehend the vision. The question is: Which vision? The answer is simple: It must be the totality of the vision of Daniel 8 because when the Angel Gabriel comes to explain the vision in answer to Daniel’s request, he begins with Persia and then continues with Greece, the little horn, and culminates with the conclusion of the 2300 days when the sanctuary is to be cleansed.

    Thus it is clear that the 2300 days which cover the whole vision of Daniel 8 must involve CENTURIES and not literal days..." ... https://secretsunsealed.org/content/PDF_downloads/20-Reasons-To-Apply-The-Year-Day-Principle.pdf
     
  16. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    You do know both Miller and White had totally bogus prophecy system?
     
  17. Hobie

    Hobie Well-Known Member

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    Well lets take a look at the Preterist claims, since Futurism has basically nothing you can check as obviously its in the 'future'.

    They say the prophecy was fulfilled by Nero, but they cant seem to agree among themselves. But lets take a look at this idea of "Nero as the Antichrist" Nero the Beast – The Preterist Archive of Realized Eschatology

    So lets look at this claim of those that believe that Paul’s prophecy concerning the man of sin applies to Nero. Here is the text.

    2 Thessalonians 2:3-7 King James Version (KJV)
    3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
    4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
    5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
    6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
    7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
    8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

    Nero died in A.D. 69. He didn’t even live long enough to accomplish what some say is the fulfillment of all the book of Revelation between A.D. 69-70. How can they suppose this fulfills the above prediction that he would be consumed with the spirit of God’s mouth, and destroyed by the brightness of His coming? Not only did he not sit in the temple of God, but he died before it was destroyed.

    Now for those who believe the book of Revelation to be more of an historical account, than a prophecy. Lets look at the following:

    Revelation 12:11-17 King James Version (KJV)
    And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. 12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time. 13And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child. 14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent. 15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood. 16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth. 17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

    Who are the above verses referring to, if everything in Revelation has already been fulfilled by A.D. 70? It certainly cannot be the Jews who perished by A.D. 70, for they overcame nothing by the blood of the Lamb, since they rejected the same. Who is the woman of the above scriptures, again it certainly cannot be the Jews who perished, for they most certainly did not have the testimony of Jesus, whom they rejected? Now it cannot be the Christian Church after A.D. 70 if everything was already fulfilled by A.D. 70.

    Revelation 13:5-7 King James Version (KJV)
    5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
    6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
    7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. 8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

    Who are the saints of the above verses? If it cannot be the Jews that perished, and the Christians had fled the city, so it wasnt them. How was the latter part of the above prophecy fulfilled by A.D. 70, when to date no power on earth has effected all of humanity?

    Revelation 13:11-15 King James Version (KJV)
    11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon. 12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed. 13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men, 14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live. 15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed. 16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads: 17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name. 18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

    How do you explain the two beasts of the above prophecy? If Rome under Nero was one, what is the other that comes afterwards? How do you explain the many details of the above that were not fulfilled by any power before A.D. 70?

    Now if it was just days, the prophetic times of 1260 days, and forty two months could not have possibly been fulfilled between A.D. 68, and A.D. 70. However, if you use the day-year principle the Bible lays out for prophecy, then it all falls into place. Many are waking up and seeing how it fits one entity in history, the Roman Catholic Church... https://www.benabraham.com/html/1260-day_prophecy_and_the_papacy.html
     
  18. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    There is NO day year prophetic principle in scriptures!
     
  19. Hobie

    Hobie Well-Known Member

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    Need to study more....
    "The fact that a day can signify a year is of crucial importance in the study of the bible numbers.

    Steve Gregg in his parallel commentary on the four main Protestant views of Revelation lists a number of outstanding theologians who have held the "historicist" view. (The "historicist" regards the Book of Revelation as a survey of the whole of Church history. Personally, I find that all four views compliment one another.)

    Concerning the historicist view, Gregg says: "A unique characteristic of this line of interpretation is its advocacy of what is called the "year-for-a-day principle."’" He lists the following among the adherents of the historicist view:


    • "John Wycliffe, John Knox, William Tyndale, Martin Luther, John Calvin, Ulrich Zwingli, Phillip Melanchthon, Sir Isaac Newton, Jan Huss, John Foxe, John Wesley, Jonathan Edwards, George Whitefield, Charles Finney, C. H. Spurgeon, Matthew Henry, Adam Clarke, Albert Barnes, E. B. Elliot, H. Grattan Guinness, and Bishop Thomas Newton." (S. Gregg, "Revelation: Four Views," Nashville: Thomas Nelson Pub, 1997, p. 34.)



    Bible Numbers: A day can equal a year:

    The following are examples of a day representing a year in the bible

    1) "A day for each year" in the account of the ten spies returning with a bad report to Moses about the Promised Land after spying it out for 40 days:


    • "And your children shall wander in the wilderness forty years, and bear your whoredoms, until your carcasses be wasted in the wilderness. After the number of the days in which you searched the land, even forty days, each day for a year, shall ye bear your iniquities, even forty years..." (Numbers 14:33,34a)


    2) Ezekiel is told to lie on his side 390 plus 40 days --- "a day for each year"


    • "Lie thou also upon thy left side, and lay the iniquity of the house of Israel upon it: according to the number of the days that thou shalt lie upon it thou shalt bear their iniquity. For I have laid upon thee the years of their iniquity, according to the number of the days, three hundred and ninety days: so shalt thou bear the iniquity of the house of Israel. And when thou hast accomplished them, lie again on thy right side, and thou shalt bear the iniquity of the house of Judah forty days: I have appointed thee each day for a year" (Ezekiel 4:4-6).


    3) The Law of Moses commands that the 7th day be a day of rest, and that likewise the 7th year be a year of rest, (Ex. 20:8-11; 23:10-11). This lays a pattern for the very important prophecy of Daniel's seventy weeks.



    4) Daniel's vision of the " seventy weeks" (490 days)


    • "Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city ... from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks ... And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease..." (Daniel 9:24-27)......https://www.1260-1290-days-bible-prophecy.org/day-year-principle.html
     
  20. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Ellen White had Wrong understanding on revelation!
     
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