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Featured Common Figure of Speech/Colloquial Language?

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by rstrats, Feb 16, 2020.

  1. rstrats

    rstrats Member
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    The Messiah said that He would be three days and three nights in the "heart of the earth".

    There are some who think that the crucifixion took place on the 6th day of the week with the resurrection taking place on the 1st day of the week.

    And of those, there are some who think that the "heart of the earth" is referring to the tomb or at the earliest to the moment when His spirit left His body).

    However, a 6th day of the week crucifixion/1st day of the week resurrection allows for only 2 nights to be involved.

    To account for the lack of a 3rd night, there may be some of those mentioned above who try to explain the lack of a 3rd night by saying that the Messiah was using common figure of speech/colloquial language.

    I'm curious if anyone who may fall in the above group of believers might provide examples to support the belief of commonality; i.e., instances where a daytime or a night time was forecast or said to be involved with an event when no part of a daytime or no part of a night time could have occurred.
     
  2. rstrats

    rstrats Member
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    Perhaps someone new visiting this topic may know of examples.
     
  3. rstrats

    rstrats Member
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    And that "someone new" needs to be someone who believes the crucifixion took place on the 6th day of the week with a 1st day of the week resurrection, and who thinks that the "heart of the earth" is referring to the tomb, and who tries to explain the lack of a 3rd night by saying that the Messiah was employing common figure of speech/colloquial language of the period.
     
  4. rstrats

    rstrats Member
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    Since it's been awhile, maybe someone new looking in may know of examples.
     
  5. SGO

    SGO Well-Known Member

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  6. rstrats

    rstrats Member
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  7. rstrats

    rstrats Member
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    And again, that "someone new" needs to be someone who believes the crucifixion took place on the 6th day of the week with a 1st day of the week resurrection, and who thinks that the "heart of the earth" is referring to the tomb, and who tries to explain the lack of a 3rd night by saying that the Messiah was employing common figure of speech/colloquial language of the period.
     
  8. SGO

    SGO Well-Known Member

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    • Like Like x 1
  9. rstrats

    rstrats Member
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    Thanks, but I'm afraid the links don't. None of them provide examples where a daytime or a night time was forecast or said to be involved with an event when no part of a daytime or no part of a night time could have been.
     
  10. SGO

    SGO Well-Known Member

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    OK perhaps you can write the appropriate search terms.
     
  11. rlvaughn

    rlvaughn Well-Known Member
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    Back in the 1980s I got a booklet from a radio preacher named Joe Crews called (What the Bible Says About) 3 Days and 3 Nights. What he purports may be what you are looking for. For example, he writes, "We must compare Scripture with Scripture and use the idiom of the language in which the Bible was written. Inclusive reckoning was taken for granted by all writers of the Scripture." You might take a look and see. I found that the radio group he started has placed the booklet online.
    Three Days and Three Nights
     
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  12. Alofa Atu

    Alofa Atu Well-Known Member

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    Here is the timeline.

    Here is the timeline, irrefutable by scripture:

    [the 7th Day Sabbath of the LORD thy God]

    Jesus at Lazarus' house in Bethany [Mt. Olivet] – [John 12:1]​

    [the first [day] of the week]

    Jesus Triumphal Entry into Jerusalem, "the next day" from leaving Lazarus' house, Hosanna! - [John 12:12,13; Matthew 21:10; Mark 11:11], goes to the Temple, and after looking around, leaves, since it was close to evening back out unto Mt. Olivet.​

    [the second [day] of the week]

    Jesus comes back, curses the fig tree, goes to the Temple, and cleanses the Temple for the Second [last] time of the Money Changers - [Matthew 21:12,13,17; Mark 11:12,15,16,17,19], and Jesus goes back out.​

    [the third [day] of the week]

    Jesus comes back, the Fig tree is withered up from the roots, goes to the Temple, and has the final teachings to the Pharisees, etc - [Matthew 21:18,23; Mark 11:20,27].

    This was the "two days" before the "Passover" - [Matthew 26:1-2; Mark 14:1; Luke 21:37-38, 22:1].

    Jesus tells the Jewish nation, that their house is forever left desolate, no more fruit again - [Matthew 23:37-39; Luke 13:32-35].

    Jesus said, that He still had to do "cures" and "cast out devils" "to day, tomorrow and the third day" and be done - [Luke 13:32,33]

    Jesus had been "daily" in the Temple - [Matthew 26:55; Mark 14:49; Luke 19:47, 22:53; John 18:20]

    The "to day" [Luke 13:32]​

    [the fourth [day] of the week]

    The "tomorrow" [Luke 13:32,33]​

    [the fifth [day] of the week]

    The "Third Day" [Luke 13:32,33], being done.​

    [the sixth [day] of the week; preparation]

    Gather twice as much, Christ Jesus the anti-typical Manna, Exodus 16:25,26

    The "spices" "had been" [Mark 16:1] purchased sometime after the Crucifixion and before burial so that they could "prepare" [Luke 23:56] them to bring on the "first [day] of the week" [Luke 24:1], even as we see Joseph of Arimathaea doing for the linen - [Mark 14:46]

    1st Evening Part - [Matthew 26:31,34; Mark 14:27,30]
    1st Morning [Light] Part - [Matthew 27:21; Mark 15:1]

    Abib/Nisan 14th; Christ Jesus our Passover is Sacrificed for us - [1 Corinthians 5:7],​

    [the 7th Day Sabbath of the LORD thy God]

    Jesus remained in the Tomb all Sabbath - anti-type Manna - Exodus 16:29,30

    The Disciples were keeping the Sabbath according to the Commandment - [Exodus 20:8-11; Luke 23:54,56]

    2nd Evening and 2nd Morning Parts - [Matthew 27:58-66, 28:1; Mark 15:42-47; Luke 23:52-53,54; John 19:38-42]

    Abib/Nisan 15th - Seasonal Feast Sabbath [First Day of Unleavened Bread, without corruption] - [Leviticus 23:5-8]​

    [the first [day] of the week]

    Christ Jesus, preserved and Risen - Anti-type Manna - Exodus 16:32-34

    3rd Evening and 3rd Morning Parts, Christ Risen and shown alive - [Matthew 28:1-10; Mark 16:2-20; Luke 24:1-29; John 20:1-23]

    Abib/Nisan 16th; Christ the Firstfruits/Wavesheaf Offering, Anti-Type Resurrection - [1 Corinthians 15:20,23].

    Jesus was walking with the disciples on the Road to Emmaus on the "first [day] of the week", as the day was closing out, being "the third day since these things" were done [Luke 24:21],​

    [the second [day] of the week]

    Jesus was still walking with the two disciples on the Road to Emmaus as the first [day] of the week was closing, and it becomes Evening - [Luke 24:29,35, etc]​

    More:

    Some attempt to utilize Matthew 26:2, incorrectly, but notice that they say "after two days" points to (Wednesday, Thursday), and so land upon 'Thursday' [5th [day] of the week] in completion for the Crucifixion/Passover, but this cannot be, due to the very time table and language of the text itself.

    The text does not say "within two days", but rather it states "after" two days, which would place the event, not on 'Thursday', but rather on 'Friday', the 'Third day", which comes "after" two days. Notice the Bible:

    After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight. Hosea 6:2

    We can see similar use, in John 4:40,43. The "two days" does not include the day "after" them which we see given in Luke 13:32,33.

    So when, Jesus said, on that 'Tuesday' [3rd [day] of the week], that "after" "two days", it would bring us to the 'third day', being 'Friday' [the sixth [day] of the week], in perfect accordance with all typological and prophetic statements gone over.

    Therefore, according to Scripture, itself, "after two days" [the "two days" being 'Wednesday', 'Thursday', the "fourth and fifth [days] of the week]], speaks to the "third day" ['Friday', the sixth [day] of the week]], not to the second of the two days.

    We can know when Jesus said this saying of "after two days", because He stated it in Matthew 26:2; Mark 14:1, which was on the third [day] of the week, 'Tuesday' [see previous time table] , for He had just finished speaking to the Pharisees, and had gone out from the Temple, leaving their house "desolate", to the Mount of Olives, as we see foreshadowed in Ezekiel:

    And the glory of the LORD went up from the midst of the city, and stood upon the mountain which is on the east side of the city. Ezekiel 11:23

    The incorrect pattern of some [Wednesday/Thursday Crucifixion] does not incorporate all the typological elements, namely the Manna in Exodus 16, nor of the 3 days and 3 nights, and therefore, cannot be correct on those grounds, and others.

    Error cannot ever sanctify, and so we plead please, that they give up this incorrect apriori that they are holding onto which leads them to such an time-table that does not incorporate all the elements, and that Jesus, in their scenario, had to arise on Sabbath, for this is not possible, especially in that point, for in His resurrection, Jesus went to work, for there was much more for Him to fulfill, even as it is written in Daniel; Hebrews; Revelation, etc.

    God/'Jesus' was "finished" after the 6th Day of Creation and rested the 7th Day:

    And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, [it was] very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day. - Genesis 1:31

    Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. - Genesis 2:1

    And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. - Genesis 2:2

    And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made. - Genesis 2:3

    Turning to the New Testament Gospels, we find Jesus "finished" with the courtyard ministry on earth, in the same time, the 6th Day, entering into His rest the 7th Day:

    When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost. - John 19:30

    Creation [Exodus 20:8-11] & Redemption [Deuteronomy 5:12-15] meet, forever sealed, the Holy 7th Day the Sabbath of the LORD thy God, the sign of His rest from His work, and so much more [soon to be gone into, and what it means for the Everlasting Gospel itself].
     
  13. Alofa Atu

    Alofa Atu Well-Known Member

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    Additional:

    "Without resorting to various theories as held by others, what does the text plainly give to us?

    We read that on the very same day that Jesus was Crucified, being the Passover, the 14th of Aviv/Nisan, the sixth day of the week,

    [1] Jesus died “about the ninth hour” [approximately 3 PM], according to the Scripture [Matthew 27:46; Mark 15:33-34; Luke 23:44], in fulfillment of Prophecy and Typology, He being the “Lamb of God”, even the “Passover” Lamb, prepared for the “evening sacrifice” (and as an additional note, see also the importance of the "morning" sacrifice, and when Jesus was Hung upon the Cross and for how long He was therefore).

    [2] Joseph of Arimathaea had time on that same day after Jesus' death to approach and ask of Pilate for the Body of Jesus [Matthew 27:57-58; Mark 15:42-43; Luke 23:50-52; John 19:38].

    [3] Pontius Pilate had time on that same day after Jesus' death to summon the guard, and inquire about Jesus' death [Mark 15:44-45].

    [4] Joseph of Arimathaea on that same day had time to come back from asking Pilate, and the inquisition made by Pilate to the Soldier, to the Cross, and take down the body of Jesus to be carried away [John 19:38].

    [5] Joseph of Arimathaea had time on that same day, after Jesus' death and after asking Pontius Pilate for the body of Jesus, and the inquisition made of Pilate to the guard, and taking Jesus down and way, to then purchase afterward [“And bought”] “fine linen” to wrap Jesus' body in [Mark 15:46].

    [6] Nicodemus had time on that same day to bring [“brought”] “a mixture of myrrh and aloes, about an hundred pound [weight]” [John 19:39] along with Joseph of Arimathaea to then “wound it in linen clothes with the spices” and embalm the body of Jesus with [Matthew 27:59; Mark 15:46; Luke 23:53; John 19:40].

    [7] According to the texts, there was still time before the Sabbath, according to the commandment [Luke 23:56] had come, as the Scriptures reveal that it was still “the preparation day”, though the “sabbath drew on” [or was nearing] [Luke 23:54].

    [8] They all had time on that same day, even after all these events to go to the tomb with Jesus and lay Him in the tomb, and seal it [Matthew 27:60-61; Mark 15:47; Luke 23:55; John 19:41-42].

    [9] Even after the women saw how Jesus was laid in the tomb, and the tomb then sealed, they still had sufficient time before the sabbath was upon them to “return” from the tomb to their homes.

    [10] Once the women had “returned” to their homes [some Jerusalem, others possibly Olivet] they still had enough time, because the Scriptures recorded that they then “prepared spices and ointments” [Luke 23:56] before the Sabbath, in which they then when it had come, finally, “rested according to the commandment.” [Luke 23:56] and later came after the sabbath was past, even early in the morning of the first day of the week, even "bringing the spices which they had prepared" (Luke 24:1) the day of Christ's Crucifixion, wherein then it is obvious that they "had bought" them that day, the sixth day of the week, before the 7th Day the Sabbath of the LORD thy God, according to the Commandment actually commenced, which was about 3 hours.​

    Let us now, come back to the main text at issue:

    And when the sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the [mother] of James, and Salome, had bought sweet spices, that they might come and anoint him. Mark 16:1

    Much is made of the “had bought”, and the timing thereof in this text, only because it is isolated from the other texts of the four Gospels.

    This text (Mark 16:1) does not indicate that a seasonal feast sabbath had come, and then a normal day existed inbetween for them to make purchase, which was then followed by the 7th Day Sabbath, as many incorrectly subscribe to, for it has been shown Prophetically and Typologically (Jonah, Manna, and more still to come in the Levitical Calender, etc) that that would be impossible (and will be yet further still, in total). Let us then look at the words:

    "had bought" [already having had purchased, sometime in the past] -

    Tense: Aorist
    Voice: Active
    Mood: Indicative
    Person: third
    Number: Plural​

    “The Aorist tense conveys the truth that ... (indicative mood is mood of reality) has occurred at a point in the past without specifying when this event occurred. … One writer adds "strictly speaking, the aorist denotes past time only in the indicative ... (Learning the Basics of New Testament Greek. AMG Publishers)" - Greek Quick Reference Guide

    This is s a past tense action, and the Greek aorist [tense] indicative [mood] reveals that it was an event [the purchasing] already past and done, some time before these events, without the text determining the exact moment of purchase in the past, but we can know by the other texts, and the women's own faithfulness that it had to be sometime before the Sabbath mentioned in this text and others. When we combine all of those previous points [1-10], we can know that the women had plenty of time to make the purchase of those spices several hours before Sabbath had come, while the men [Joseph and Nicodemus] were doing the things recorded, even purchasing “linen”, etc. We can know that the women already had the spices before Jesus was laid in the tomb, and thus we can conclusively determine that they “had bought” those spices sometime before then.

    Not content with this, others attempt to wrest the passage from the context order, but please notice the connections of “and” in successive time keeping:

    And when he knew [it] of the centurion, he gave the body to Joseph. - Mark 15:45

    And he bought fine linen, and took him down, and wrapped him in the linen, and laid him in a sepulchre which was hewn out of a rock, and rolled a stone unto the door of the sepulchre. - Mark 15:46

    Mark 15:46 is preceeded by Mark 15:45, which gives us succession of events in their order, and vs 46 begins with "kai" [And], connecting the two.

    Therefore, Joseph was given the body, he bought fine linen, and then took the body down, and then wrapped Jesus in that just purchased Linen, etc. Plenty of time in the day to do so, since Jesus had died at approx 3PM, and there was several hours left before sunset and the 7th Day Sabbath was to begin.

    The word in Greek in Matthew 15:46, αγορασαςG59 V-AAP-NSM

    Robinson's Morphological Analysis Codes:

    Tense: Aorist
    Voice: Active
    Mood: Participle [a verbal adjective]
    Case: Nominative
    Number: Singular
    Gender: Masculine​

    It is translated as "buy (28x), redeem (3x)", thus 31 times, in the King James Bible:

    bought, 13

    Mat 13:46, Mat 21:12, Mat 27:7, Mar 11:15, Mar 15:46, Mar 16:1, Luk 14:18-19 (2), Luk 17:28, Luk 19:45, 1Co 6:20, 1Co 7:23, 2Pe 2:1

    buy, 13

    Mat 14:15, Mat 25:9-10 (2), Mar 6:36-37 (2), Luk 9:13, Luk 22:36, Joh 4:8, Joh 6:5, Joh 13:29, 1Co 7:30, Rev 3:18, Rev 13:17

    redeemed, 3

    Rev 5:9, Rev 14:3-4 (2)

    buyeth, 2

    Mat 13:44, Rev 18:11

    In every instance it means to purchase.

    I will also recommend upon this issue, a webpage with several helpful charts -

    A helpful breakdown, Was Jesus crucified on Wednesday, Thursday, or Friday? (Wayback Machine required now) - Was Jesus crucified on Wednesday, Thursday, or Friday?

    Helpful Chart (Wayback Machine required now) - Four Gospels Passover Chart

    We find the women preparing those spices upon the same day Jesus was crucified (Luke 23:56), and then coming with them “prepared” on Resurrection morning (Luke 24:1), which means that they "had been" purchased the day of the crucifixion and before sundown.

    If you want to discuss the phrase "three days and three nights in the heart of the earth" (Matthew 12:40), we can from scripture. It, in context, doesn't refer to the grave (time) only.
     
  14. rstrats

    rstrats Member
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    Crews provides one possible example with the Esther account, but even if "three days, night or day" means the same thing as "three days and three nights" - and I'm not sure that it's a certainty that it necessarily does - that would only be one example.
     
  15. rstrats

    rstrats Member
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    Actually, that is an issue for a different topic. This one is concerned only with the commonality of forecasting or saying that a daytime or a night time would be involved with an event when no part of a daytime or no part of a night time could occur.
     
  16. Alofa Atu

    Alofa Atu Well-Known Member

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    As I said:

    If you want to discuss the phrase "three days and three nights in the heart of the earth" (Matthew 12:40), we can from scripture. It, in context, doesn't refer to the grave (time) only.

    I even included the time in the timeline that it does refer to.
     
  17. rstrats

    rstrats Member
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    That is an issue for a different topic. Perhaps you might start one.
     
  18. rlvaughn

    rlvaughn Well-Known Member
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    Just to be clear, I do not agree with Crews, but thought it might fit what you are looking for.
     
  19. Alofa Atu

    Alofa Atu Well-Known Member

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    No such example in scripture exists. If a text uses the phrase day and night (or plurality thereof), it always includes at least part of those timeframes.
     
  20. Alofa Atu

    Alofa Atu Well-Known Member

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    No, it isn't. I answered your question contextually to the issue you raised in the OP. The answer to your question is, "No." There are no examples in scripture in which the phrases "day and night" (or plurality thereof) exist that do not include at least part of those timeframes. The question you asked is based on a misunderstanding of Matthew 12:40 to begin with, which is why I included the materials I did, in answering your question.

    The OP is attempting to try to prove a false a priori with a leading question based on a misunderstanding of the text under consideration .
     
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