Featured Who are the 'elders' and 'four beasts' of Revelation 5:8?

The angelic beings are indeed ministering with God, as it is written:

Psa_104:4 Who maketh his angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire:

Heb_1:7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.​

Yet, as I have said from the OP, they already existed before this earth was created. All of Heaven ministers to God. It is the way of Heaven. Selflessness.

Not at all. She used to believe as you do, being at one time a Methodist. It was not until she heard the scriptures concerning the matter, that she studied the matter out. See the video and citation above. As, also stated, most of the ECF were conditionalist also.

Yes, I can understand the use of language, as Jesus was clear with Lazarus. Yet, the "death" referred to is simply the first and not the "second": death. All persons, that are in the first death, still "live unto" God:

Luk_20:38 For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him.​

This does not mean that they (dead - asleep) are conscious somewhere. It means God can still resurrect them. They are not beyond His power to bring to life.

Notice the text is in context of the resurrection (not before):

Luk 20:36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.
Luk 20:37 Now that the dead are raised, even Moses shewed at the bush, when he calleth the Lord the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.
​

Yes, agreed.

Oh, you just stepped over the line and make the leap of illogic, to prove your apriori. The text you cited did not say that Lazarus was conscious. The "soul" is dead (alseep), Ezekiel 18:4,20. The "soul" is the whole person/being (Genesis 2:7; Job 33:30; Psalms 42:2, 56:3; 1 Corinthians 15:45; Revelation 16:3; etc).

You just added to scripture. Scripture, in Revelation 20:4, doesn't say "disembodied". It says:

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.​

The "souls of them", can also be said, the "persons of them". This is also a future event, not yet taken place. It is to take place during the 1000 years to come (though I know as a staunch Romanist, you are either Amillennial, or mystical, or both).

You redefine the word "soul" which is not found in scripture, to mean something which is taught by neo platonism, which is where Romanism got its theology as admitted in print.

See response previous.

I never said Heaven was empty in any place on this board - ever. I have always said that Heaven was filled with creatures (unfallen beings, like the sons of God and angels, animals, etc).

What Heaven does not host, is the 'deceased' (those who sleep in the dust of the earth). Every Ash Wednesday, you say it, but do not recognize what is said. Ashes, dust and to that which "you" return, for it is from that which we are all made.

 

That (what you just shared) is pure spiritualism. It is occult (and teaches platonism, neo platonism, dualism, OOB, etc), and not of God, but of the devil (I speak of theology).

Jesus said:

Luk_24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.​

Scripture foretold:

Isa_26:19 Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.​

Matthew 27, etc, (Psalms 68:18; Ephesians 4:8, etc) speaks of the others raised with Jesus in glory:

Joh_17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
​

Jesus was no 'ghost'.

As for the other material I shall address it later. In detail, by God's grace.

 

Would you care to explain, using my original reply that has the citation, How I took anything out of context? Here is the original post - Who are the 'elders' and 'four beasts' of Revelation 5:8?

It is speaking of "sharers in his divinity" (in context of "gods") in the very quotes Vatican.va refers to. That is all I was referring to. I didn't even make any statements on the citation, except the following:

"... Even Rome says (though it isn't what scripture says/defines):..."​

Again, using the original reply - Who are the 'elders' and 'four beasts' of Revelation 5:8?

Share how I took the citation out of context? The only comment I made on it was:

"... Who are the 'gods' among the Romanists?..."​

This in answer to the first citations "gods".

You mistake Liguori's words. Liguori cites "Clement" as saying "as it were". My quotation was not Clement from Liguori, but rather Innocent III, who said directly, "Indeed, it is not too much to say that in view of the sublimity of their offices the priests are so many gods."

Innocent III never said, "as it were". That was Clement. Innocent III even said, "it is not too much to say ..."

Bottom Line. There was a bait and switch, but it was not from me. There was obfuscation, but again, not from I. There was out of context, but neither from my replies.

There is more to cite from Rome of course.

Already addressed here -

[1] - Do The SDA See Ellen White As Modern Prophetess Then?

[2] - Do The SDA See Ellen White As Modern Prophetess Then?

[3] - Do The SDA See Ellen White As Modern Prophetess Then?​

If you read carefully, you are taking sister White out of context. I demonstrate that in those three posts. Please read carefully. Thank you.

Character assassination. Not worth addressing. Next.

 

You do realize, that the 'transloosion' (portmanteau) that you used is not actually representative of the Hebrew? Your 'version' states that God makes 'winds' his messengers, and 'fire' his angels (messengers), but the KJB (and also Hebrew, and even the NT by Paul) shows that it is referring to living beings, actual angels, not 'winds' and 'fire'. Notice:

KJB -

Psa 104:4 Who maketh his angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire:
Heb 1:7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.​

Hebrew OT -

Psa 104:4 עשׂה מלאכיו רוחות משׁרתיו אשׁ להט׃​

so called an LXX -

Psa 103:4 ὁ ποιῶν τοὺς ἀγγέλους αὐτοῦ πνεύματα καὶ τοὺς λειτουργοὺς αὐτοῦ πῦρ φλέγον.​

GNT TR -

Heb 1:7 και προς μεν τους αγγελους λεγει ο ποιων τους αγγελους αυτου πνευματα και τους λειτουργους αυτου πυρος φλογα​

DR (Douay Rheims) -

Psa 104:4 Who makest thy angels spirits: and thy ministers a burning fire.
Heb 1:7 And to the angels indeed he saith: He that maketh his angels spirits and his ministers a flame of fire.​

Latin Vulgate (Jerome) -

Psa 103:4 qui facis angelos tuos spiritus et ministros tuos ignem urentem
Heb 1:7 et ad angelos quidem dicit qui facit angelos suos spiritus et ministros suos flammam ignis​

Your 'transloosion' doesn't even agree with the official Roman Catholic Bibles (Nihil Obstat and Imprimatur).

Again you added the word "disembodied". The word is nowhere present in the text, written or implied (as it specifically says, "lived" (which means resurrected, for it implies a state of non-living for a time, until they 'lived' at the time to reign), not dead/deceased or disembodied).

Depends on the resurrection you refer to. The resurrection in Revelation 20:4 has not taken place, that is for certain. I never said otherwise. I spoke of other resurrections that did take place (Moses (glorified, see Luke 9:31), Firstfruits and Jesus' own).

The persons, such as Enoch (never died), Elijah (never died), Moses, the Firstfruits (Matt 27) and Jesus all have glorified bodies. The last three (Moses, firstfruits and Jesus) have all been resurrected from sleep/death and have entered Heaven after.

Isa_26:19 Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.

Dan_12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.​

 

It is written:

Deu_34:5 So Moses the servant of the LORD died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of the LORD.​

I trust God's word over yours. Further evidence:

Moses, according to the Word of the LORD, died in the land of Moab, and fell on the sleep of death, and was buried by the LORD Himself.

Furthermore the LORD was angry with me for your sakes, and sware that I should not go over Jordan, and that I should not go in unto that good land, which the LORD thy God giveth thee for an inheritance: Deuteronomy 4:21

But I must die in this land, I must not go over Jordan: but ye shall go over, and possess that good land. Deuteronomy 4:22

And he said unto them, I am an hundred and twenty years old this day; I can no more go out and come in: also the LORD hath said unto me, Thou shalt not go over this Jordan. Deuteronomy 31:2

And the LORD said unto Moses, Behold, thy days approach that thou must die: call Joshua, and present yourselves in the tabernacle of the congregation, that I may give him a charge. And Moses and Joshua went, and presented themselves in the tabernacle of the congregation. Deuteronomy 31:14

And the LORD said unto Moses, Behold, thou shalt sleep with thy fathers; and this people will rise up, and go a whoring after the gods of the strangers of the land, whither they go to be among them, and will forsake me, and break my covenant which I have made with them. Deuteronomy 31:16…

And die in the mount whither thou goest up, and be gathered unto thy people; as Aaron thy brother died in mount Hor, and was gathered unto his people: Deuteronomy 32:40...

So Moses the servant of the LORD died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of the LORD. Deuteronomy 34:5

And he buried him in a valley in the land of Moab, over against Bethpeor: but no man knoweth of his sepulchre unto this day. Deuteronomy 34:6

Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee. Jude 1:9

And Moses was an hundred and twenty years old when he died: his eye was not dim, nor his natural force abated. Deuteronomy 34:7

And the children of Israel wept for Moses in the plains of Moab thirty days: so the days of weeping and mourning for Moses were ended. Deuteronomy 34:8…

And when thou hast seen it, thou also shalt be gathered unto thy people, as Aaron thy brother was gathered. Numbers 27:13

Avenge the children of Israel of the Midianites: afterward shalt thou be gathered unto thy people. Numbers 31:2

Then said the Jews unto him, Now we know that thou hast a devil. Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and thou sayest, If a man keep my saying, he shall never taste of death. John 8:52

Art thou greater than our father Abraham, which is dead? and the prophets are dead: whom makest thou thyself? John 8:53

Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come. Romans 5:14​

 

I know of no "Baptist" who teaches that, as it is unscriptural. What are you?

Enoch was the 7th from Adam (as per Genesis 5:18, Luke 3:37, etc):

Jud_1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,​

Not so Elijah, who was a Tishbite, of Gilead:

1Ki_17:1 And Elijah the Tishbite, who was of the inhabitants of Gilead, said unto Ahab, As the LORD God of Israel liveth, before whom I stand, there shall not be dew nor rain these years, but according to my word.

1Ki_21:17 And the word of the LORD came to Elijah the Tishbite, saying,

1Ki_21:28 And the word of the LORD came to Elijah the Tishbite, saying,

2Ki_1:3 But the angel of the LORD said to Elijah the Tishbite, Arise, go up to meet the messengers of the king of Samaria, and say unto them, Is it not because there is not a God in Israel, that ye go to enquire of Baalzebub the god of Ekron?

2Ki_1:8 And they answered him, He was an hairy man, and girt with a girdle of leather about his loins. And he said, It is Elijah the Tishbite.

2Ki_9:36 Wherefore they came again, and told him. And he said, This is the word of the LORD, which he spake by his servant Elijah the Tishbite, saying, In the portion of Jezreel shall dogs eat the flesh of Jezebel:​

 

If you want to leave the conversation, that is your prerogative. I can see why you would want to though. As you will.

 

Did you read Isaiah 26:19 about the "dead body" of Jesus being raised with the others, and Matthew 27 in connection with its fulfillment? Luke 24:39 is indeed after Jesus ascended and returned to meet with the disciples, which is a fulfillment of other typology and prophecy.

Yet you intend that the scripture teaches Jesus was a 'ghost' until he returned to meet with the disciples? Isaiah 26:19 and Matthew 27 do not share your spiritualistic view. Furthermore, it is written:

Joh 20:11 But Mary stood without at the sepulchre weeping: and as she wept, she stooped down, and looked into the sepulchre,
Joh 20:12 And seeth two angels in white sitting, the one at the head, and the other at the feet, where the body of Jesus had lain. [Past tense, the body was in the tomb, but when resurrected and glorified, got up and walked out. There is no 'ghost' here.]
Joh 20:13 And they say unto her, Woman, why weepest thou? She saith unto them, Because they have taken away my Lord, and I know not where they have laid him. [Mary was confused, as the body of Jesus was missing from inside of the tomb, for she had not yet known of His resurrection.]
Joh 20:14 And when she had thus said, she turned herself back, and saw Jesus standing, and knew not that it was Jesus. [She did not know it was Jesus for several reasons. She was weeping, the unexpected resurrection (her mind did not expect Jesus could be alive to make such connection), Jesus had a change of clothes (was not in the burial clothes as had been, for they remained in the tomb) and Jesus was glorofied, no longer weak, emaciated in fallen flesh.]
Joh 20:15 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, why weepest thou? whom seekest thou? She, supposing him to be the gardener, saith unto him, Sir, if thou have borne him hence, tell me where thou hast laid him, and I will take him away.
Joh 20:16 Jesus saith unto her, Mary. She turned herself, and saith unto him, Rabboni; which is to say, Master.[Jesus spake with a mouth, which must have vocal chords, a throat, tongue, etc all connected together in His resurrected and glorified body. With what shall you have a 'ghost' speak with? Name the parts it uses to do this.]
Joh 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God. [Mary tried to touch Jesus' resurrected and glorified body, but He restrained her from so doing, until He had ascended and returned.]
Joh 20:18 Mary Magdalene came and told the disciples that she had seen the Lord, and that he had spoken these things unto her. [Mary does not recount having seen a 'ghost'. She recounts having seen "the Lord", knowing now the reason for the missing body from the tomb.]​

The other Gospels share the same:

Mat 27:50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
Mat 27:51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
Mat 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
Mat 27:53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

Mat 28:5 And the angel [Gabriel] answered and said unto the women, Fear not ye: for I know that ye seek Jesus, which was crucified.
Mat 28:6 He is not here: for he is risen, as he said. Come, see the place where the Lord lay. [the body of Jesus was now missing from the tomb, as when Gabriel (and also 'herald') came down, by command of the Father, called forth the Son to life, who arose bodily and walked out of the tomb, saying, "I am the resurrection and the Life."]
Mat 28:7 And go quickly, and tell his disciples that he is risen from the dead; and, behold, he goeth before you into Galilee; there shall ye see him: lo, I have told you.

Mat 28:8 And they departed quickly from the sepulchre with fear and great joy; and did run to bring his disciples word.
Mat 28:9 And as they went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, All hail. And they came and held him by the feet, and worshipped him.
Mat 28:10 Then said Jesus unto them, Be not afraid: go tell my brethren that they go into Galilee, and there shall they see me.​

Spiritualism teaches that 'ghosts' do not need resurrection, nor have any. 'Ghosts' don't have 'feet', as it is an attribute of the body. A 'spirit-body' is a contradiction in terms, a self contradiction.

Mar 16:6 And he saith unto them, Be not affrighted: Ye seek Jesus of Nazareth, which was crucified: he is risen; he is not here: behold the place where they laid him.

Luk 24:3 And they entered in, and found not the body of the Lord Jesus.

Luk 24:5 And as they were afraid, and bowed down their faces to the earth, they said unto them, Why seek ye the living among the dead?
Luk 24:6 He is not here, but is risen: remember how he spake unto you when he was yet in Galilee,
Luk 24:7 Saying, The Son of man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, and be crucified, and the third day rise again. [Just as foretold]

Joh 2:19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
Joh 2:20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?
Joh 2:21 But he spake of the temple of his body.
Joh 2:22 When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said.

Joh 20:2 Then she runneth, and cometh to Simon Peter, and to the other disciple, whom Jesus loved, and saith unto them, They have taken away the Lord out of the sepulchre, and we know not where they have laid him.

Joh 20:5 And he stooping down, and looking in, saw the linen clothes lying; yet went he not in.
Joh 20:6 Then cometh Simon Peter following him, and went into the sepulchre, and seeth the linen clothes lie,
Joh 20:7 And the napkin, that was about his head, not lying with the linen clothes, but wrapped together in a place by itself.​

The Pharisees, Romans, etc were not afraid of a 'ghost' returning. They feared a missing body. They sealed that tomb as physically as they could, and even evil and good angels surrounded it. It was the most protected place ever on earth.

You are teaching pure spiritualism, that Jesus was a 'ghost'. It is not Baptist theology. It is satan's theology. It is antithetical to the Gospel itself, and to all the evidence of the resurrection.