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Non-Registered Baptists

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by Salty, Jul 9, 2020.

  1. Salty

    Salty 20,000 Posts Club
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    I came across this web page.

    So - should a church consider incorporating?

    Is it Biblical to do so, or is it against Scripture to do so?

    What are the Pros & Cons.

    If you were considering the calling of a church - would INC be a consideration if you accepted the call or not?
     
  2. Marooncat79

    Marooncat79 Well-Known Member
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    It does protect in case of a lawsuit otherwise individual members can be held liable is my understanding
     
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  3. Squire Robertsson

    Squire Robertsson Administrator
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    That is also my understanding of the matter. I minister to emigre Russian Evangelical Christian-Baptists. For the most part, they were part of the unregistered movement in the former Soviet Union.
    They have a different understanding of the word.
    Here, in the States, for the most part, a "church" is a "church". With the government not getting involved in definitions. Incorporation does not make a difference.
     
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  4. MartyF

    MartyF Well-Known Member

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    Individuals can always be sued except for certain government personnel like police, federal workers, prosecutors and the like. The corporate church is more likely to be sued because that is where the money is. False lawsuits are always a problem for everyone. Don't think that having a corporation magically protects you from all individual lawsuits.

    Corporations protect people who own the corporation from lawsuits over which they had no control. It allows ownership without liability. However, if one made the decisions which brought about the lawsuit, it doesn't matter. The owner can still be sued.

    A safer bet would be to put the church land, property and buildings into a trust as these are the primary assets of most Baptist churches. Even when people are guilty (snip) trusts are hard to break.

    I always thought that incorporating was done to avoid taxes in the U.S.

    One of the advantages to incorporating is that no laws not pertaining to all citizens will pertain to you. Special laws concerning Churches can't be applied to a gathering of like-minded individuals. Examples include Covid-19 laws.
     
    #4 MartyF, Jul 11, 2020
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 11, 2020
  5. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

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    As far as I am aware, not one of the Baptists churches of 200 years ago in America was ever on a "register", nor were they "incorporated".
    So, no.

    In fact, I think that the whole idea of doing such things came from someone who decided to look into running churches as businesses, with a "CEO", "CFO", directors and paid staff...
    Only with Biblical names instead of corporate ones.

    My question is, why should a church be "incorporated" as a tax-exempt business?
    To me, it's an over-complication that God's children shouldn't have to deal with.

    We should be looking to the Lord for deliverance if troubles arise, anyway.:)

    Against.

    The local church is the family of God.
    It should never be run anything remotely like a business.

    I also do not hold to God's pastors and teachers being paid a "salary", and I never will.

    I see Paul leaving us an example that God's pastors ( and especially evangelists ) should not seek to receive money from churches, but instead should be working full-time jobs to support themselves and their families.
    If an evangelist is on the road full-time or otherwise unable to hold down a full-time job because of travel and / or preaching full time, then I believe that is different and local congregations should take up collections to meet those needs for them.

    Otherwise, churches should seek to remain as simplistic in operation and to stay "off the radar" as much as possible, and definitely to keep this world's politics out of the preaching.

    After all, this isn't our world, we're just passing through.;)
     
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  6. rsr

    rsr <b> 7,000 posts club</b>
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    IMO fears about incorporation are far, far down on the list of things churches should be worried about.

    Incorporation shields church members from liability for things the church corporately has done. Say the church borrows $100,000 for an expansion and the pastor departs, leaving the church to pay the note. Without incorporation individual members of the church could be liable for repayment. Someone slips on your sidewalk. Individual members are technically liable.

    Incorporation has nothing to do with tax exemption. Churches are assumed to be tax exempt without incorporation. In addition, those who are worried about being bound by IRS regulations on partisan campaigning are not exempt just because they do not incorporate.

    Paul took advantage of Roman law when he could, using his citizenship to escape harsh punishment or appeal, and I see no reason why churches should not also use legal protections they are offered that do not impede their mission or interfere with their beliefs.
     
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  7. rsr

    rsr <b> 7,000 posts club</b>
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    That you are not aware of something does not mean it didn't happen. You can do a quick search for incorporations and find Baptist churches using the law to their benefit.

    In fact, commercial incorporation was built on church incorporation law, not the other way around. American corporate law developed when the establishment churches were disestablished and the states had to figure out what to do with the dissenting churches, which were for the first time legal entitities.

    Funk, K. (2017). CHURCH CORPORATIONS AND THE CONFLICT OF LAWS IN ANTEBELLUM AMERICA. Journal of Law and Religion, 32(2), 263-284. doi:10.1017/jlr.2017.31
     
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  8. Salty

    Salty 20,000 Posts Club
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    In addition - in NY State - we have a tax-exempt # so we do not have to pay sales tax on purchases for the church.
     
  9. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob Administrator
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    We plant churches. Churches are separate from the State, so no, we do not "incorporate" and assume State identity.

    We find no issue locally with a checking account, etc. Banks are happy to work with us. The IRS gives full deduction to a "de facto" 501.c3 organization, whether the church is incorporated or not.

    We pay a small amount of sales tax because we are not tax exempt in our purchases.

    Big issue: We will not and cannot "buy property" as the State demands a legal (their approval, not God's) entity to hold deed/mortgage.

    That is not hindering us, as we feel that the typical "property" purchase is actually a chain around the church, demanding much of our resources for payment, upkeep, utilities, etc. Many churches must spend $$$ each year for a building, drawing that money for actual ministry. The building sits idle much of the time, but it truly "costs".

    We opt for a church to start in a home, then when outgrowing the convenience of that, move to a rented place. We use hotel meeting rooms that hold 50-100 people. Our goal is to use 70% of all money into missions/ministry and only a small amount in rent, love gift for teaching elders, supplies, etc.
     
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  10. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob Administrator
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    Detail to demonstrate our present church's cost-effectiveness
    $50k in annual giving (approximate)

    Expenses:
    $2,000 rent to hotel (6 hours on Sunday, all utilities, coffee, snow plowing, even use of pool for baptism, etc covered)
    $12,000 love gifts to teaching elder to reimburse their time in preparation
    $2,000 supplies for service (bulletins, wine, matzoh, postage, advertising in yellow pages, etc)
    $34,000 supplies for actual ministry
    Local (homeless, meals, rescue mission work, crisis pregnancy work, food bank, evangelism, tracts etc)
    National (camp, inner-city church planting, college)
    International (3rd World missions and evangelism)

    Over the years this has worked because I do not demand a "salary" not do we have building debt and upkeep, both of which could be $50,000 each annually
     
  11. Salty

    Salty 20,000 Posts Club
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    Is that by your choice or does the State not provide for Tax free purchased by non-profits?
     
  12. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob Administrator
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    "Is that by your choice or does the State not provide for Tax free purchased by non-profits?"

    State requires an organization be incorporated to receive tax-exempt status for purchasing product or property. Many local businesses that know me (worked in Wyoming 32+ years doing this) don't even question and give tax write off. (State sales tax is 4%, county 1% so not a lot of tax paid). When we bought hymnals and chairs (large cost items for a new church) we bought on-line so no tax, too.
     
  13. Salty

    Salty 20,000 Posts Club
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    Dr Bob - that 2,000 rent - is that per month or per year?
    If that is for the year - then that would be about $40 per week.
    Our budget calls for about $1,6000 a year for utilities
    Since our building is paid off- there is no other up keep expenses.

    You state you rent for 6 hrs on Sun-
    Do you meet for Bible Study at homes, ect?

    Since you only rent on Sun
    I would assume you have to set up and break down every week.

    In our case - most of us have physical conditions the would make the
    set up/break down extremly hard.

    Would like to mention - I am not finding fault in your approach -
    if it works - that's great.
    and FTR - I have pastored churches where we only rented the bldg/room on Sun.
    Since I have been on both sides - I prefer having our own bldg.


    PS - Good to see you again Dr. Bob!
     
  14. Salty

    Salty 20,000 Posts Club
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    Interesting - Here in NY - the State Sales tax is 4% and most counties have a 4% or so sales tax (total of 8%)
    All we had to do was to have a Fed ID Tax # (needed for reporting -some- of the income to the pastor)
    then fill out a form - -not too big of a deal. Now if there was anything I objected to in the form - then I would have just Filed 13!. But all the questions were reasonable.
    In addition - in NY State, a church does NOT have to be INC for the sales tax exempt status.
     
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  15. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob Administrator
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    Good to have a life :)

    We pay $40 a week. Conference room is set up with 50 chairs, narrow tables (typical for conference), pulpit, white board, multi-media, and coffee. Zero set up and now we don't even "straighten up" when done - their staff has covid-cleaning protocols.

    Our service is 2.5-3 hours since we are spread out so far and can only meet for worship once a week.
    We have 30 minutes non-stop singing, 30 minutes prayer/sharing, 15 minutes Lord's Supper, 15 minutes fellowship, 60 minutes preaching, 15 minutes interaction discussing/applying the message. SS material is printed and done by families.

    We have families host "cottage prayer meeting/study" in homes. Remember, in Wyoming we are just one small town . . . with really long streets :) We have families come from our city, surrounding cities, and up to 125 miles away.
     
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  16. Marooncat79

    Marooncat79 Well-Known Member
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    I have friends in Geraldine. Lol
     
  17. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob Administrator
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    For 18 months we served as interim pastor. Large church (EFree) had issues, lost pastor and 1/3 of members. So I did "mission" work in a different setting than new-church.

    They had little $$$ (they claimed) and board concerned. Annual giving with now-few members was about $220,000.
    So I had them break down basic expenses/budget

    $35,000 Building payment
    $65,000 Sr Pastor
    $45,000 Assistant Pastor
    $15,000 Secretarial part-time
    $25,000 Program expense (Awana, all ministries)
    $15,000 Utilities
    $10,000 Maintenance/janitorial/plowing
    $20,000 Missions (10% of church)

    I was mortified to see 80% of budget on "things" (building, salaries) and actual "ministry" and "missions" getting short-changed. We helped them prioritize and stabilize the church. Took over a year before they felt confident looking for a pastor.
     
  18. Salty

    Salty 20,000 Posts Club
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    Our budget is 12,000 for the year.
    My entitlements is about 3,000 the year
    but I have seen very little (not complaining -
    just a statement of fact.)

    Prior to my arrival -(1 Nov 19) it had been many months - if not years that
    the church had given anything to missions.
    That was my #1 priority!
    Next priority was to prepare a budget.

    and I still have a long way to go!

    I am working very closely with my treasure.
    Sometimes it is hard on him as in the past offerings were very low.

    Also prior to my arrival - who knows the last time they had a business meeting
    a budget - or what! -
     
  19. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob Administrator
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    Amen, Salty. Re-educating and motivating about giving/missions (AND supporting you) is paramount.

    We are elder-led, so we elders deal with business but report everything (in print) to the people. Before any decision - like adding a missionary for support - elders talk personally with every family to find consensus and answer questions. Real grass-roots local church function.
     
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