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Featured What is "Sovereignty"??

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by Derf B, Jul 8, 2020.

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  1. Derf B

    Derf B Active Member

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    We throw this word around quite a bit. I thought it would be a good thing to discuss.

    From Cambridge Dictionary: the power or authority to rule
    From Encyclopedia Brittanica: Sovereignty, in political theory, the ultimate overseer, or authority, in the decision-making process of the state and in the maintenance of order.
    From Webster's 1828 (note that "sovereignty" wasn't even an entry, so I've provided the definition for "sovereign"): Supreme in power; possessing supreme dominion; as a sovereign ruler of the universe.
    Easton's Bible Dictionary defines God's Sovereignty as His "absolute right to do all things according to his own good pleasure."

    I'd like to suggest that the idea of God's sovereignty is not unlike that of a king's sovereignty. A king (such as in the Mayflower Compact's reference to "our dread Sovereigne Lord, King James") exercises sovereignty in these ways:
    1. He determines the law
    2. He enforces the law.

    The enforcement of the law can take several forms, but there are two results from enforcement:
    1. People obey the law and are rewarded in some way (usually by getting to continue doing what they have been doing)
    2. People disobey the law and are punished in some way

    The punishment of lawbreakers takes several forms:
    1. Infliction of Pain (loss of happiness, perhaps, including monetary fines)
    2. Imprisonment (loss of freedom)
    3. Banishment (loss of communion)
    4. Death (loss of life)


    I believe it is easy to show that God uses all of these punishments on His creatures, but their purposes may differ.
    1. The infliction of pain is intended to drive a person's behavior back to the law. God used drought or pestilence on the people of Israel. Or invasion by another nation.
    2. Imprisonment is a temporary state, waiting for judgment. This prevents harm to others in the interim. I don't know if there's an analog with God's people, but Satan is bound for 1000 years during the millenium.
    3. Banishment deprives the subject of the benefits of communion, which can be sharing in wealth of the sovereign or protection from enemies. God sent the people out of the land of Israel to Assyria or Babylon. Satan and his angels were banished from heaven.
    4. Death is the final act, where a sovereign has no hope of rehabilitating the subject, and his actions are a danger to others.

    Since God uses these punishments in much the same way as a human king would, I believe this informs us on how God's sovereignty works. It is not that God decides everything that will happen, as some say, but that God reacts to what His subjects do, and this is wholly in keeping with His divine sovereignty.

    (Topic for another time is whether God knows everything His subjects will do ahead of time, and the mechanism for that knowledge.)
     
    #1 Derf B, Jul 8, 2020
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  2. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Well-Known Member

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    He does what He pleases .
     
    #2 Barry Johnson, Jul 10, 2020
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  3. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Sovereign is to possess supreme power and authority. Sovereignty is to exercise supreme power and authority.

    It is misused very often in this section of the board.
     
    #3 JonC, Jul 10, 2020
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  4. Derf B

    Derf B Active Member

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    But that’s merely sovereignty over himself. A real sovereign exercises authority over others in his realm—his subjects do what he pleases. But not by constraining their will, only by rewards and threats.
     
    #4 Derf B, Jul 10, 2020
  5. Wesley Briggman

    Wesley Briggman Well-Known Member
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    I was surprised to find the following results for the usage of the word "sovereign" in the following translations. Zero usage in the King James!

    [Act 4:24 ESV] 24 And when they heard it, they lifted their voices together to God and said, "Sovereign Lord, who made the heaven and the earth and the sea and everything in them,

    [Act 4:24 KJV] 24 And when they heard that, they lifted up their voice to God with one accord, and said, Lord, thou [art] God, which hast made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all that in them is:


    [1Ti 6:15 ESV] 15 which he will display at the proper time--he who is the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords,

    [1Ti 6:15 KJV] 15 Which in his times he shall shew, [who is] the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;


    [Rev 6:10 ESV] 10 They cried out with a loud voice, "O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before you will judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?"

    [Rev 6:10 KJV] 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?


    “Sovereign” appears in following translations X number of times:

    287 results in the NLT; 294 results in the NIV; 3 results in the ESV; 1 result in the CSB; 1 result in the NASB; 358 results in the NET; 3 results in the RSV; 1 result in the DBY
     
    #5 Wesley Briggman, Jul 10, 2020
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  6. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

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    When I read the Scriptures in the AV, Wesley, and I see the word "Lord", I automatically treat Him as if He is King and "sovereign"...
    Because He is.

    For example:

    " Ye call me Master and Lord: and ye say well; for [so] I am."     ( John 13:13 ).

    In my mind, there is no doubt that He is in charge of everything and greatly to be "feared" ( respected ) for His power and authority.
     
    #6 Dave G, Jul 10, 2020
  7. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

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    I'm not sure how much there is to discuss.
    But if I had to throw in, I'd ask these questions:

    What does God's word say about the Lord, and what makes Him "the Lord" and not some other god of our own making?
    In other words, according to the Bible ( and the Bible alone ), exactly how far does His control of things go?

    Here's what I believe may be a helpful exercise...
    Using the Scriptures alone, find as many "verses" that one can that describe how powerful, knowledgeable, etc the Lord is, or how sovereign He is over His creation.

    I'll go first:

    " But our God [is] in the heavens: he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased." ( Psalms 115:3 ).
    " Whatsoever the LORD pleased, [that] did he in heaven, and in earth, in the seas, and all deep places." ( Psalms 135:6 ).
     
    #7 Dave G, Jul 10, 2020
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  8. Derf B

    Derf B Active Member

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    So what does it mean to exercise supreme power and authority?

    “Supreme” means “highest in rank or authority”, so it is a comparative word. Better than anyone else in power/authority. So a comparison with an earthly king is a decent comparison, don’t you think?


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    #8 Derf B, Jul 10, 2020
  9. Derf B

    Derf B Active Member

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    Those are good verses! And I don’t want to minimize them, but it’s worth considering versed that talk about things that happen that God isn’t pleased with, but they still happen.

    Judges 17:6 (KJV) In those days [there was] no king in Israel, [but] every man did [that which was] right in his own eyes.

    Judges 21:25 (KJV)
    25 In those days [there was] no king in Israel: every man did [that which was] right in his own eyes.


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    #9 Derf B, Jul 10, 2020
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  10. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    That means it's above my pay grade :Biggrin.
     
    #10 JonC, Jul 10, 2020
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  11. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    Being fully Sovereign means you are above all and not subject to the law. You make binding decisions that cannot be questioned and must be carried out. When you declare "Thus sayeth the Lord," you are declaring that your word is not only binding, but it will also be fully executed exactly as you command. All things are beneath you. You have no equal, no peer, no one who has power to oppose you without receiving your full wrath or your pardon, depending upon your decision and yours alone.
    This is what I mean when I say that God is Sovereign.
     
    #11 AustinC, Jul 10, 2020
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  12. Derf B

    Derf B Active Member

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    I heard someone say recently that Jesus , though a prophet, never said, “Thus sayeth the Lord.” But He still taught with authority, showing His Lordship.

    But God doesn’t always get people to do what He tells them. For instance, He told Adam and Eve not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, but they still did it. So His command was not “fully executed as He commanded.” Same with the Israelites; they turned away to other gods after God said to them, “Thou shalt have no other gods before me.”


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    #12 Derf B, Jul 10, 2020
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  13. Derf B

    Derf B Active Member

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    It may be above your (and my) paygrade to do it, but not to acknowledge the one doing it!


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    #13 Derf B, Jul 10, 2020
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  14. Derf B

    Derf B Active Member

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    Do you think sovereignty requires omniscience? Seems like the characteristics that describe omniscience are a subset of those of sovereignty.


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    #14 Derf B, Jul 12, 2020
  15. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

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    Not with men,
    But in the Lord's case, He knows everything anyway.

    However, one thing that sovereignty does require is power;
    And I don't mean the type of power that stems from the consent of the governed, or power over someone's life.
    When it comes to God's sovereignty, He has power far in excess of anything that we as men can comprehend.

    For example, please see Genesis 20:6.
    If He has the power to stop a man from committing a sin, then He can do anything that He wishes.

    More examples:

    If He can change water to wine, calm a violent storm, cause a donkey to speak as a man, part the Red Sea, change a river of water literally into blood, rise from the dead, heal any disease or infirmity, cause clothing not to wear out, make water gush from a rock in the middle of the desert, cause a bush to burn without being consumed, cause the sun to stop and then go backwards in the sky, and cause dew to fall on a fleece and not on the ground one day and do the exact opposite the next, then with God, all things are possible.

    He has that kind of power and much, much more.;)
     
    #15 Dave G, Jul 12, 2020
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  16. Derf B

    Derf B Active Member

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    Agreed! But not all things are expedient. For instance, God could lie, as you’ve stated, because all things are possible. But it isn’t expedient for Him to lie. Thus He doesn’t.

    In the same way, God could make a man do whatever He wanted, and think whatever He wanted, this God could have avoided Noah’s flood, right? But apparently avoiding the flood was not expedient.

    Why?


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    #16 Derf B, Jul 12, 2020
  17. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

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    No, Derf, He cannot lie, because He cannot do evil.

    " Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
    14 but every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
    15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death."     ( James 1:13-15 ).

    He cannot be anything but be truthful, righteous and just, as that would go against Who He is.
    He is holy and cannot sin, nor does He cause men to sin.
    I recommend against going outside of Scripture, Derf.
    He has chosen to give us what He wants us to know...we should be content to rely on that.
    Because it suited His purposes, that's why.
    Please keep in mind that the Lord is unlike any other god that we as men could possibly conjure up in our own minds.

    His ways are far above ours, and His thoughts are far above ours as well.
     
    #17 Dave G, Jul 12, 2020
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  18. Derf B

    Derf B Active Member

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    The verse you give says He cannot be tempted with evil, but not that He cannot do evil.

    I agree that sin (a better word than "evil", see Is 45:7) is not a part of God's character. But why is that? Is it because God has chosen what He will do, or because there's a standard greater than God? I say it is the first, rather than the second. And He has a reason for choosing those things--because as a God of love, those things that are sinful are not loving (which sounds like a standard outside of Himself, but it is based on His knowledge).
     
    #18 Derf B, Jul 12, 2020
  19. Derf B

    Derf B Active Member

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    @Dave Gilbert
    A better verse might be one of these: Numbers 23:19,Titus 1:2,Hebrews 6:18. Some translations interpret the sentiment as "God cannot lie.", but some say "God doesn't lie", so it still isn't clear if it's possible for God to lie.

    Regarding other "sins", most are nonsensical when discussing God. There's no reason for God to "worship other gods", because He knows that they aren't worth worshiping--being either demons or inanimate objects--as He created them (or the materials).

    God can't take His own name in vain, except for when He vows in His own name, and doesn't fulfill His vow, but that would be a special case of lying (see Heb 6:13,18).

    He has no father or mother, so He cannot dishonor them.

    God can't "murder", because He created humans, and He can destroy humans; and there's no other entity at God's level beside Himself--He created them all.

    God can't covet or steal, since everything we have He gave to us, and He can take it back.

    God can't commit adultery, as far as I can tell, because He's not a sexual being.

    What's left? Lying. God, potentially, has the capability to lie, but not the character to do so, nor the fear to drive Him to do so, as humans might have.

    Jesus is a different matter. Jesus was tempted with the same kinds of things we are tempted with, yet without sin. I think that means He could have worshiped Satan, He could have murdered someone, He could have committed adultery, He could have stolen. But He didn't.
     
    #19 Derf B, Jul 13, 2020
  20. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

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    I agree with the underlined.

    There are better references to use than the ones I have posted thus far to demonstrate that God is completely trustable, since He is completely unable to lie.
    But I don't really consult other English translations, having used the AV almost exclusively since I was called by the Gospel in 1978.
    I reason that other translations can do whatever they want, can be as accurate or inaccurate to the Greek and Hebrew as they wish, and can use whatever manuscripts for the a basis of that translation that they wish...
    But I have never had any reason to disbelieve the words as they are laid out in my Bible and I never will.
    Here they are:

    "God [is] not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do [it]? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good? " ( Numbers 23:19 ).

    " In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;" ( Titus 1:2 ).

    " that by two immutable things, in which [it was] impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us:" ( Hebrews 6:18 ).



    As I read these passages, I also tend to ignore the italics, which were inserted into the text by the translators in order to help with "continuity".
    I don't believe that God's word needs any "help", so I simply focus on the words outside of the italics.

    I also occasionally check the Greek or Hebrew to compare what the translators were doing hundreds of years ago, with what they are doing today.
    To me, there is a marked difference in the work being done then and now, and the motivations for that work...
    But that's for another thread, IMO.

    For now, I see that the Greek word for "cannot lie" in Titus 1:2 is , "ἀψευδής" or " apseudēs", which when translated directly to the English, means, " without lie, truthful" or literally, "un-false".
    So, I look at the text in each of these passages and trust the words to mean that God is the complete opposite from a lie, or as the Lord Jesus put it:

    " I am the way, the truth and the life..."

    Therefore, Jesus Christ, as God in the flesh, is the embodiment of truth.

    Contrast that with Lucifer being the father of lies...
    Jesus said that he was a liar from the beginning ( John 8:44 ), so I trust the Lord to tell me the truth at all times, and the devil to lie to me.;)
     
    #20 Dave G, Jul 13, 2020
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