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Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by rockytopva, Apr 3, 2020.

  1. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    Van stated:
    Christ became the propitiation or means of salvation for the whole world, all mankind.

    The conclusion from Vans statement is Van believes in universalism.

    God gives his children faith (no others have faith). Because God's children are given faith, God counts his children as righteous.

    You misunderstanding of Timothy is actually funny because it's so preposterous.
    Paul is saying that Timothy was raised to know scripture. Every Jewish household was raised to know scripture.
    Van, even an atheist can know scripture.

    Off point. Irrelevant
    Calvinists say God chose to Redeem whom God wills. Do you disagree?

    Calvinists say God chose individuals to be adopted/saved. Do you disagree?

    You agree with Calvinist's?

    Do you believe God does not ordain all things? Are there events that are out of God's control?

    Ordain and cause are not the same.
    God ordained that Adam would rebel. God did not cause Adam to rebel.
    You seem to struggle with understanding what ordain means.

    Correct, this is denied because you assertion is universalism.

    God chose them before they had faith (Ephesians 1). God gives faith to his children and views his children as righteous because he has given them faith.
    The fall resulted in complete inability to have the capacity to save one's self.
    Your failure to differentiate between ordination and cause is obvious to every reader
     
  2. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Van stated:
    Christ became the propitiation or means of salvation for the whole world, all mankind.

    The conclusion from Vans statement is Van believes in universalism.
    Absurd false charge. Deflection rather than discussion.

    God gives his children faith (no others have faith). Because God's children are given faith, God counts his children as righteous.
    God credits our faith as righteousness, Romans 4:4-5, Romans 4:23-24.

    You misunderstanding of Timothy is actually funny because it's so preposterous.
    Paul is saying that Timothy was raised to know scripture. Every Jewish household was raised to know scripture.
    Van, even an atheist can know scripture.
    This assertion denies the lost suffer from "total spiritual inability" because to know scripture is to know some spiritual things.

    Calvinists say God chose to Redeem whom God wills. Do you disagree?
    Off point, irrelevant. Here is what I actually said: God chooses individuals for salvation through or on the basis of crediting their faith as righteousness.

    Calvinists say God chose individuals to be adopted/saved. Do you disagree?
    Of course God chose individuals for salvation on the basis of crediting their faith as righteousness and predestined thos ;chosen to be adopted at Christ's second coming.

    Did anyone say God does not choose individuals for salvation? Nope - so more deflection, more strawman, more smoke screen. You agree with Calvinist's? I agree with scripture, 2 Thessalonians 2:13

    Do you believe God does not ordain all things? Are there events that are out of God's control?
    God causes or allows all that comes to pass.

    You seem to struggle with understanding what ordain means.
    No, "ordain" means "predestine" see any dictionary. Calvinists like to re

    Correct, this is denied because you assertion is universalism.
    A repeat of the absurd claim that Christ becoming the means of salvation means Christ saved everyone. Utter nonsense

    God chose them before they had faith (Ephesians 1). God gives faith to his children and views his children as righteous because he has given them faith. When God chose His Redeemer, He also chose corporately all those His Redeemer would redeem, thus He chose us in Him.

    The fall resulted in complete inability to have the capacity to save one's self. No one said anyone has the capacity to save themselves. Thus more deflection, and no discussion of the actual issue.

    Your failure to differentiate between ordination and cause is obvious to every reader.
    God causes or allows whatsoever comes to pass. Ordain means predestine.
     
  3. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    I have explained why I think you are wrong. You are welcome to remain in the wrong.
     
  4. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    LOL, the old "I addressed this in the unreferenced past and obliterated your view" defense.

    1) AustinC claimed falsely my view resulted in Universalism.
    2) AustinC denied God credits our faith as righteousness or not.
    3) AustinC claimed we can know scripture with total spiritual inability.
    4) AustinC claimed Jesus becoming the means of salvation means Jesus saved everyone.
     
  5. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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  6. George Antonios

    George Antonios Well-Known Member

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    Perfectly agreed.
     
  7. Salty

    Salty 20,000 Posts Club
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    I used to work full time for a Christian Radio Station.
    We had a rather simple policy.

    YOU PAY - YOU PLAY
     
  8. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    You do realize that the adoption is yet future, Romans 8:23. 1 John 3:2. So our salvation, Ephesians 2:8-9, is prior to it.
     
  9. Particular

    Particular Well-Known Member

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    I do realize you are mistaken.
    God chose me, predestined me and adopted me before the foundation of the world.

    Ephesians 1:3-12 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth. In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory.

    Nothing future tense about it.

    Ephesians 2:4-9 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

    Nothing future tense about it.

    You are mistaken.
     
  10. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    there is no passage of time with God. He is eternal.

    the time continuum is His creation.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  11. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    <sarcasm>Nice to have your immortal body. Romans 8:23.</sarcasm>
     
  12. Particular

    Particular Well-Known Member

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    The adoption has already happened. The time of living on the family property has not yet happened. Read the full passage in Romans 8 so you see this truth.

    Romans 8:18-25 For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worth comparing with the glory that is to be revealed to us. For the creation waits with eager longing for the revealing of the sons of God. For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of him who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to corruption and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until now. And not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. For in this hope we were saved. Now hope that is seen is not hope. For who hopes for what he sees? But if we hope for what we do not see, we wait for it with patience.

    Notice the context and understand that the adoption is already secured, the salvation is already secured, but the redemption of our earthly bodies is yet in the future.
     
  13. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    So you are claimng Romans 8:23 has already happened.
     
  14. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Psalms 90:2, ". . . from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God. . . ." God Himself is the uncaused reality without beginning, without end.

    God Himself is the fundamental self evident truth by which all other self evident truths can be self evident.
     
  15. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    God created time to keep everything from happening at once.
     
  16. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    God is uncaused eternity without beginning and without end. God created time for all created things.
     
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