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A Complaint About A Lack of Logic

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by JD731, Jul 22, 2020.

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  1. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    If I am following, you are saying on that day your death will become certain. Rather than you will spiritually die and later physically die. Interesting.
     
  2. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    This is exactly right. For three years Shimei did not cross the Brook Kidron, and for three years Solomon did not have him executed. But in the day that he did so, his fate was sealed. As with Shimei, so with Adam.
     
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  3. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    The Bible does not support your claim. The passage specifically says on that day Adam would surely die (not that he would die on that day). You are rearranging things to fit your theory. Genesis 3 tells us exactly what this death is (and it happened long after Adam sinned).
     
  4. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    That is exactly what is said.

    Think about how many times this type of repetition is used (here death death). How many other times (like amen amen) would we say it means two occasions or types?

    None.... Never. We always take it to be emphatic or certain.

    But why do people make an exception here?

    I believe it is because they have already decided prior to Scripture.
     
  5. Calminian

    Calminian Well-Known Member
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    You are simply wrong about this Jon. This is not my argument, this is a well-known Hebrew idiom which denotes certainty, not immediacy. As MM mentioned, we have another example of this exact phrase in the Shemei Solomon account. I would invite you to read up on this.

    Why did Adam not Die Immediately?
    Alden Bass (Apologetics Press)

    Why Didn’t Adam and Eve Die the Instant They Ate the Fruit?
    Bodie Hodge (Answer in Genesis)

    Genesis 2:17—“you shall surely die”
    Dr. Terry Mortenson (Answers in Genesis)
     
  6. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    I think you need to look at the text to understand how 'living things' are described in the Bible.
    Genesis 7:4b. '....I will destroy from the face of the earth all living things that I have made.' Yet God did not destroy the fish or the crops. Genesis 7:22 again: 'All in whose nostrils was the breath of life, all that was on the dry land, perished.' 'Breath of life' is the key. Fish and plants do not breath in the same way that animals and birds do.
     
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  7. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    As I understand it, the dying you will die, does not suggest in any way that spiritual death did not occur on that day. Only that death was certain, and therefore the fact physical death occurred later is a non problem.
     
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  8. Calminian

    Calminian Well-Known Member
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    Also blood is a definer of life.

    Lev. 17:11 For the life of a creature is in the blood, and I have given it to you to make atonement for yourselves on the altar; it is the blood that makes atonement for one’s life.

    Lev. 17:14 because the life of every creature is its blood. That is why I have said to the Israelites, “You must not eat the blood of any creature, because the life of every creature is its blood; anyone who eats it must be cut off.”

    Deut. 12:23 But be sure you do not eat the blood, because the blood is the life, and you must not eat the life with the meat.​
     
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  9. Calminian

    Calminian Well-Known Member
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    Correct. The passage is not speaking of spiritual death per se, but in no way takes away from the reality of Adam's spiritual death.
     
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  10. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Another interesting fact of the passage is this separation was not a direct result of his sin but of his eyes being opened (which was a direct result of his actions).
     
  11. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    There are plant fossilization from the flood as well as sea animals. Plants provide what is needed for that breath of life, as well as the green plant sea plankton.
     
  12. Calminian

    Calminian Well-Known Member
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    In a word, wrong.
     
  13. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

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    Equating The Doctrines of God in The Bible with the name of a man is Total Dravaity exhibited.
     
  14. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    Indeed. And He expects us to use it.
    There was no death (see post #65) until the Fall for the very good reason that there was no sin. To call Adam 'immortal' is probably a redundancy. Death did not exist. 'Therefore just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin.' 'For if by the one man's offense death reigned.....' Death came with, and on account of, sin. At the end of the Sixth Day, God pronounced the world 'very good.' There was no sin in it and therefore, no death.
    The consequences of Adam's sin were cataclysmic. The whole world was changed. 'For the creation was subject to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it......'
    Adam became a sinner and so did all his posterity, and death and decay came into the world. Compare Genesis 5:1 with Genesis 5:3. Before the Fall, there was no procedure to deal with sin. Adam and Eve had no covering for their sin, but that didn't matter because there was no sin. As soon as they fell into sin, they realised their need for a covering, but a man-made covering is totally unacceptable to a holy God (Isaiah 64:6). So God supplied a covering for the pair (Genesis 3:21), and for that to happen one or more innocent creatures had to die, thereby establishing the doctrine that without the shedding of blood, there is no remission of sins.
    God placed a curse on all creation (see above), but He also revealed the plan that had been there from all eternity to satisfy His righteous anger against sin. In Adam, all is sin and judgement; in Christ, all is righteousness and mercy. Compare Genesis 3:18a with Isaiah 55:13. The Lord Jesus wore the thorns upon His brow.

    If you stick with the Bible you can see that the Fall brought about the most immense changes imaginable, that to Adam being one. You simply need to read the Bible with spiritual eyes.
    Adam was already in an undying state. death was something alien to him. God told him that if he sinned, he would die, and he did. I am not interested in your faulty,earthbound human logic. If you tell your son that if he doesn't tidy his room you will ground him, he doesn't reply, "Dad, you're going to ground me anyway, so there's no point in my tidying my room."

    What IF Adam did not eat of the fruit but got drunk and killed Eve. By your standard God would be powerless. The point is your argument is wrong. I think that most can at least see it is wrong.[/QUOTE]
     
  15. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    [/QUOTE]
    I agree. There was no death until Adam ate of the fruit. That is what God told Adam (on the day you eat of the fruit you will surely die). Death entered the world through Adam's transgression.

    I think we need to stick with what is written in the Bible. That is what is written in 1 Cor. 4.

    So we can agree on a lot. Through Adam death entered the world and death spread to all men for all have sinned.

    I'm not going to get caught up in illustrations because they all are flawed. I did not even need to go there because Scripture does not present God's command as an "if" issue.

    God is not a God of "ifs". God commanded Adam not to eat and told him in the day he did he would surely die.

    Let's just leave Scripture as it is and not twist it to say what is not there.
     
  16. JD731

    JD731 Well-Known Member

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    e

    I asked for logical consideration. No one seems to understand the basic problem that sin brought to Adam and his family. It is frustrating to read the comments on this thread. It is no wonder we have hundreds of denominations in Christendom. Maybe if I present this logic it will help.

    First of all it makes no sense whatsoever if Jesus Christ is attempting to give life to all who will believe in him by giving them his Spirit if they already have it. I am going to assume for a moment here that most folks on this board understands that the image of God is trinitarian. That is basic theology. If someone denies the trinity then there is no use taking the conversation any further. Here is the logic.

    If We Christians become the image of Christ, who is the express image of God He 1:2, when we receive his Spirit, what were we before we received the Spirit? You people are saying we were in the image of God.God is not on crack cocaine. If we were in his image already, why the effort through the new birth to 1) make us a son of God, and 2) make us in the image of Christ. If Christ is the express image of God in his incarnation, what does that mean? We are not told he became the image of God somewhere in his life on earth, he is just said to be the express image of God. He said to Thomas on the eve of his crucifixion that he that has seen him has seen the Father.

    The Spirit that we receive and who makes us a son of God is said to be the Spirit of God and of Christ. The same Spirit. This is a trinity. Jesus Christ, God the Father, the Spirit.

    9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
    10 And if Christ [be] in you, the body [is] dead because of sin; but the Spirit [is] life because of righteousness.
    11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

    I wish someone would take the time to read those verses and ponder them. The trintarian God is at work in the new birth. God dwells in him. God raised Christ from the dead. The Spirit raised Christ from the dead. The Spirit dwells in a born again man, Jesus dwells in a born again man. God dwells in a born again man.Now, a man with the indwelling Spirit is in the image of Christ, who is God This makes him a trinity. Soul, body, and the Spirit. This gives him eternal life because God is in him and the Spirit is life and eternal. God cannot die.

    Some man posited the proposition that Adam did not die immediately when he sinned. He waited for 930 more years.Here is a man who is in the image of God. The scriptures clearly says so. He is a trinity. He is a son of God. He has the Spirit.He has a soul. He has a body. He has life and in this condition he has billions of children in his family. None of them are like him according to this logic. God, who created Adam in his own image and in his likeness, said Adam died the day he ate the forbidden fruit. Then God said as he gave the generation of Adam in chapter 5 that Adam begat a son named Seth in his own image and in his likeness. What was that likeness and image after the fall?

    Well, if the Spirit is life in the NT then logic says he is life in the OT. He has not changed.If a man is alive when he has the Spirit in the NT then he is alive when he has the Spirit in the OT. Only two people had the Spirit indwelling them in the OT. Adam and Jesus Christ.Adam died because he sinned. God cannot dwell with sin. The Spirit departed Adam. Absense of the Spirit is what spiritual death is. Sin cannot be remitted without the shed blood, according to God himself in He 9:22.

    You have to ask yourself; why is God willing to sacrifice his own son so men can receive the Spirit and be a trinity and in his image if they are already. Sin must be washed away before God can live in a man.That is what the cross was all about. If there would have been any other way God would have thought about it. Re 1:5 in a KJV bible, and a couple others, says that Jesus Christ washed us from our sins in his own blood. Thank you Lord Jesus for that! A man who is born of Adam must be born again.
     
    #76 JD731, Jul 23, 2020
    Last edited: Jul 23, 2020
  17. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

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    "And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, and after his image;"
     
  18. 1689Dave

    1689Dave Well-Known Member

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    I think you slid off the rails somewhere along the line. Let's not waste bandwidth and try to get somewhere with this.
     
  19. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    You are correct, in the day you eat, dying thou shalt surely die.
    Spiritual death on the spot, physical death to follow.
     
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  20. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    But that is not what Scripture actually says.

    What is your justification for interpreting the double use of mûth to mean "dying thou shalt die'?

    This is one of two instances where the repetitive use of mûth is used. There it is used as an emphatic (the man would certainly die.... And he did). In both the Hebrew and Greek language we see this type of repetitiveness. It always means an emphatic, but you make an exception here. You need to explain your reasoning.

    Do you believe "amen amen" should be rendered "agreeing I agree"?

    Even if the verse was translated "dying thou shalt die" how do you justify adding a spiritual death to the text as Genesis 3 specifically points to a physical death and decomposition of a physical body?
     
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