Featured Irressistible Grace #2

How does a parent not predestine their guests to be denied any serving of greens if they have predestined their children to be fed greens at their evening dinner?

Well, they aren't condemned to begin with - just non-elect. And yes, they very much have a choice to be saved until they fill up their measure of sin. God might choose to give them a new heart (1Sam 10:6-11) unto repentance, making them partakers of the Holy Spirit (Heb 6:4-6) and enlighten them with the knowledge of Christ(Heb 10:26) from which they then fall away, returning to the dirt after being washed (2Pet 2:22)

I do not disagree with them concerning God's sovereign election of His children of Promise unto assured salvation. I only disagree with their saying that God passed over the remaining non-elect in a way that amounted to His decision to never act towards their salvation in any way at any time.

Not only since the cross of Christ. And not so with His unconditionally elected children of Promise. But yes, the non-elect throughout all time have been determined to be saved or condemned based on their response in faith alone.

Where are you getting this from? God's election of grace has always been unconditional of man's acts - but you yourself have said one is born again by receiving the Holy Spirit in faith. How does election remain unconditional if dependent on man's response of faith?
.

 

Where are these philosophies in The BiBle?

1.) "...a wonderful and kind and able God who will save every one who will come to him by faith.

2.) That is all it takes to be saved.

3.) Please do not teach that man cannot believe in Jesus Christ.

Seems like enemies of God leave out, 'sin', in any consideration of Re-establishing a Regenerated Relationship, with God.

"Repent and believe", are words that I see.

Those souls, who have never Experienced "being lost",
can not have an Experience of "being Saved".

Those who have "been lost" and Shown their Helpless Condition and State of Being, before God, as a dead, lost, wicked, enemy of God, then, can Have a Salvation Experience, where God Grants them Repentance toward what they are, as God-hating, Hellbound lost souls, Condemned, and under The Wrath of God, as well as, DAMEND, apart from God Giving them the Gift of Repetance AND Faith Toward jesus Christ's Work, as their Savior.

You leave out, "being lost", "dead in tresspasses and sins", as the thing to be Given Repentance for, after being CONVICTED AND "SALVATION".

The idea of giving 'consent to' some form of religious Jesus and calling it "belief", is NOT HOW GOD SAVS SOULS.

And the idea of rebrobate, condemned souls, that are fitted for destruction, is not within the scope of your religion, either.

Where ARE you getting this "God"?

From, "Smile America, God Loves you"?

When, God says, Repent and "Flee The Wrath of God to Come"(?)

 

This is where, "Worshipping God", is lost on His enemies.

PRAISE JESUS, GOD ALMIGHTY that YOU HAVE REVEALED that YOU are a GOD WHO has SHOWN US the Answer to 1) can a chosen man ever ultimately be lost

is, "NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO", Saved to The Uttermost.

and PRAISE JESUS, GOD ALMIGHTY that YOU HAVE REVEALED that YOU are a GOD WHO has SHOWN US the Answer to 2) can an unelected man ever be saved,
is, "NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO", *

Since, THAT IS THE ONLY GOD THERE IS, WE WORSHIP HIM, for WHO HE SAYS HE is AND NOT "WHAT MAN THINKS hE MIGHT BE".

From: His By Grace--"John Gill: A Body of Doctrinal & Practical Divinity"-Doctrinal Book 2, Chapter 3

*"I shall prove that there is a non-election, or rejection of some of the sons of men, when others were chosen; and, indeed, from the election of some, may fairly be inferred, the non-election of others.

Common sense tells us, that of persons or things, if some are chosen, others must be left: if there is a remnant of the sons of men, according to the election of grace, then there are others not included in it, which are left unchosen, and are called the rest.

"The election", that is, elect men, "hath obtained it", righteousness and eternal life; "and the rest were blinded", #Ro 11:5,7.

Our Lord says, "I speak not of you all; I know whom I have chosen", #Joh 13:18 plainly intimating, that all were not chosen, and it is certain one was not, and whom he calls "the son of perdition"; one, not only deserving of it, but appointed to it; for though chosen to an office, as an apostle, yet not to grace and glory, #Joh 17:12 and how many such there be, no man can pretend to say;

but it is evident there are some, and who are generally described by negative characters; as not known by God and Christ; the elect are God's people, whom he knows; they are elect, according to his foreknowledge;

which carries in it love and affection to them; but of others Christ says, "I never knew you"; he knew them by his omniscience, but not with such knowledge as he knows the elect of God; he never knew them as the objects of his Father's love, and his own; he never knew them as the objects of his Father's choice, and his own; he never knew them in the gift of his Father to him, #Mt 7:23

hence they are represented as "not" loved, which is meant by being hated: "Esau have I hated";

that is, had not loved him, as he had Jacob; for it cannot be understood of positive hatred, for God hates none of his creatures, as such, only as workers of iniquity; but of negative hatred, or of not loving him; which, in comparison of the love he bore to Jacob, might be called hatred: in which sense the word is used in #Lu 14:26.

Moreover, they are spoken of as "not" being given to Christ;

for if there are some that are "given" to him "out of the world", then there must be a world which are not given, and for whom he has not so much concern as even to pray for them, #Joh 17:6,9

they are frequently described, as not having their names written, and not to be found written in the Lamb's book of life, #Re 13:8 17:8 20:15.

Now as election is signified by the writing of names in the book of life, non-election is expressed by not writing the names of some there; and if those whose names are written there, are the elect, then those whose names are not written these, but are left out, must be non-elect: to which may be added, that our Lord says of these persons, "Ye are not of my sheep", and gives this as a reason why they believed not in him, #Joh 10:26.

But the goats he will place on his left hand, pass sentence of condemnation on them, and send them into everlasting punishment, #Mt 25:33,41,46.



Moreover, from the effects of election not having place in some persons, it may be concluded, that there are such who are non-elect.

The effectual calling is a certain fruit and effect of election; "Whom he did predestinate, them he also called", #Ro 8:30

not only externally, but internally, with an holy and heavenly calling, to grace here, and glory hereafter.

But are all called in this manner?

No; there are some who have not so much as the outward call by the ministry of the word, have not the external means of grace; but as they sin without law, perish without it, #Ro 10:14 2:12.

Those who are chosen, are predestinated to be conformed to the image of Christ;

they are chosen to holiness, and through sanctification of the Spirit.

But are all made like to Christ, and conformed to his image? do not many bear the image of Satan, imitate him, and do his lusts? are all men made holy, or have they the sanctification of the Spirit?

Whom God predestinates he justifies, by the righteousness of his Son.

But are all men justified?

No; for though he justifies some of all sorts and nations; as the circumcised Jews by faith, and the uncircumcised Gentiles through faith, yet not every individual; yea, there is a world that will be condemned, and consequently not predestinated to life, #1Co 11:32.

They that are chosen, are predestinated to the adoption of children, and enjoy both the grace and inheritance of children.

But are all children and heirs? is there not such a distinction among men, as children of God, and children of the devil; between whom there is, and will be, an eternal difference? #1Jo 3:10 and therefore there must be an election, and a non-election among them.

Moreover, whom God has predestinated, or chosen to life and happiness, these he glorifies, #Ro 8:30 they obtain the glory of Christ, which his Father has given him for them, and to which they are chosen and called, #Joh 17:22 2Th 2:13,14.

But are all glorified? do not some go into perdition, even into everlasting punishment? and therefore must be considered as non-elect, #Re 17:8 Mt 25:46.

To all which may be added, that those that are given to Christ, which is but another phrase for being chosen in him; these, he says, shall come to him, and he will in no wise cast them out;

yea, that they are his sheep, whom he must bring to his Father, to himself, to his fold, to grace and glory, #Joh 6:37 10:16.

But are there not some whom Christ will drive away from him, and to then, say, "Depart from me, ye cursed into everlasting fire", #Mt 7:23 25:41.

All this put together most clearly
and fully proves,
that there are some
who are not chosen of God,
but rejected by him."

 

Chosen souls who are Saved, "WORSHIP GOD".

This is where, "Worshipping God", is lost on His enemies.

PRAISE JESUS, GOD ALMIGHTY that YOU, GOD, HAVE REVEALED that YOU are a GOD WHO has SHOWN US the Answer to 1) can a chosen man ever ultimately be lost

is, "NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO", Saved to The Uttermost.

and PRAISE JESUS, GOD ALMIGHTY that YOU, GOD, HAVE REVEALED that YOU are a GOD WHO has SHOWN US the Answer to 2) can an unelected man ever be saved,
is, "NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO", *

Since THAT IS THE ONLY GOD THERE IS, WE WORSHIP YOU, GOD ALMIGHTY, for WHO YOU SAYS YOU ARE is AND NOT "WHAT MAN THINKS 'you' MIGHT BE".

 

Is that all your argument against what I'd said? Dismissing it as silly without showing what's silly about the comparison?

You'd asked me to explain in simple words 'how it works' - and I presented an analogy.
Parent = God
Children = elect
Guests = non-elect
Greens = salvation
Dinner = future time of evangelism

Can the parent pre-determine before dinner-time that their children will definitively be fed greens then? Yes/No.
In doing so, are they simultaneously pre-determining that the guests should be denied any offering of greens during dinner-time? Yes/No.

Similarly, God can and does pre-determine before any are born or have done good or evil that His children of Promise will definitively receive salvation through the Gospel.
In doing so, He is not simultaneously pre-determining that the non-elect should be denied any offering of salvation during the preaching of the Gospel.

I merely showed you how I make sense of Single Predestination. This was simply a logical question you'd raised which I responded to. If you find it silly, point out the logical or analogical flaw within this question and answer.

Instead you call it silly and then launch into an argument over how predestination cannot be applied to salvation but only Image-conformation in Rom 8 and Eph 1 - sure, a topic switch but to which I'd simply replace my Greens = Image-conformation and it works just the same. Cannot God have predestined His children of Promise to be conformed to the Image of His Son? What's so grievous about this notion taken independently? Are you so caught up in your own set ways that you're unable to process anything else - even if it might amount to the truth?

 

An argument can be made from 1Pet 1:3-5 that salvation is the actual conformation to the image of Christ which is to be revealed in the end and what we have now is the birthing again by God unto such salvation in living hope of such inheritance.

But even if you wish me to distinguish them by considering salvation as the receiving of the Holy Spirit right now and the conforming to Christ's Image as the future event, why must that alter my views on predestination? I've expanded more on this below.

That's the bulk of your post that you've presented as an argument against what I believe - but have you checked with me first if I do disagree on any of these statements? Glorification is in the future - it is an inheritance which we have not yet received. Who has actually argued against this?

What is your line of argument here again - that we've been predestined to this future inheritance and therefore we have not been predestined to anything prior to that? Are you looking for just the word 'predestined' - you do realize it's just a generic word to denote "deciding beforehand", right? Am I incorrect in say looking at Gen 15:13-14 and holding that God 'predestined' Israel to be saved from Egypt though the word itself is not used in the passage?

Now, I'm a little tired of rehashing arguments from an earlier thread, so if you've been following the earlier discussion on what "Adoption" means, we could save some time there. Else, I'll spend some time later and provide links to that thread. I hold "adoption" to be the act of making one who isn't your son/child to begin with, as your own son/child now. What do you define "adoption" as seen from Scriptures? Consequently, I hold that we have already received the adoption since we are already sons/children of God in Christ - do you believe that adoption itself is a future event that we are still to wait for?

 

The parts of this decree, concerning the rejection of men, are commonly said to be preterition and pre-damnation.

His By Grace--"John Gill: A Body of Doctrinal & Practical Divinity"-Doctrinal Book 2, Chapter 3

2b1. Preterition is God's passing by some men, when he chose others: and in this act, or part of the decree, men are considered as in the pure mass of creatureship, or creability;

in which state they are found when passed by or rejected, and in which they are left, even just as they are found, nothing put into them; but were left in the pure mass, as they lay, and so no injury is done them;

nor is God to be charged with any injustice towards them: in this act sin comes not into consideration, as it does in a following one;

for in this men are considered as not created, and so not fallen; but as unborn, and having done neither good nor evil, #Ro 9:11.

And this is a pure act of sovereignty in God, and to his sovereign will it is to be ascribed; who has the same sovereign power, and greater, than the potter has over his clay, to make one vessel to honor, and another to dishonor, #Ro 9:19,20,22.

This being expressed, as before observed, by negative phrases, is, by some, called negative reprobation.

 

Would that make a difference to your believing these premises?

Every Lutheran agrees with me - since Single Predestination is not a new doctrine as such. I just happen to be on a forum for calvinists and arminians attempting to reconcile them on a lutheran doctrine while not being any of these denominations wholly.

 

2b2. Pre-damnation is God's appointment, or preordination of men to condemnation for sin; and is what is spoken of in #Jude 1:4.

"There are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation";

and who are described by the following characters,

"ungodly men, turning the grace of God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and, or even our Lord Jesus Christ";

which, when observed, is sufficient to clear this decree of God from the charge of cruelty and injustice: and this, by some, is called, positive reprobation.

The word krima, translated "condemnation", in the above quoted text, some render "judgment", and interpret it of judicial blindness and hardness of heart; which appeared in the persons embracing and spreading false and pernicious doctrines spoken of;

and this is, indeed, what they are foreordained, or appointed to, as a punishment of former sins; for this hardness, &c. presupposes former sins, and an obstinately continued course in them;

either against the light and law of nature, which they like not to walk according to, and therefore God gives them up, pursuant to his decree, to a reprobate mind, to do things not convenient, #Ro 1:24,28

or against divine revelation, precepts, counsels, and admonitions, like Israel of old, hearkening not to the voice of the Lord, in his word, nor paying any regard to his instructions; and therefore he gives them up, as he determined to do, to their own hearts' lusts, and to walk in their own counsels, #Ps 81:11,12

and this is the sense of the word in #Joh 9:39.

God hardens some mens' hearts, as he did Pharaoh's, and he wills to harden them, or he hardens them according to his decreeing will; "Whom he will he hardeneth", #Ro 9:18

this he does not by any positive act, by infusing hardness and blindness into the hearts of men;

which is contrary to his purity and holiness, and would make him the author of sin;

but by leaving men to their natural blindness and hardness of heart;

for the understanding is naturally darkened;

and there is a natural blindness, hardness, and callousness of heart, through the corruption of nature, and which is increased by habits of sinning; men are in darkness, and choose to walk in it;

and therefore God, as he decreed, gives them up to their own wills and desires, and to Satan, the god of the world, they choose to follow and to be led captive by, who blinds their minds yet more and more, lest the light should break in unto them, #Eph 4:18 #Ps 82:5 2Co 4:4

and also God may be said to harden and blind, by denying them that grace which can only cure them of their hardness and blindness, and which he, of his free favor, gives to his chosen ones, #Eze 36:26,27

but is not obliged to give it to any;

and because he gives it not, he is said to hide, as he determined to hide, the things of his grace from the wise and prudent, even because it so seemed good in his sight, #Mt 11:25,26.

 

Just called it, "Damned", or "Damnation".

His By Grace--"John Gill: A Body of Doctrinal & Practical Divinity"-Doctrinal Book 2, Chapter 3

Hence this blindness, hardness, insensibility, and stupidity, are represented as following upon non-election;

not as the immediate effect of it, but as consequences of it;

and such as neither judgments nor mercies can remove;

and bring persons to a right sense of sin, and repentance for it, #Ro 11:7-10.

The sin and fall of Adam having brought him into a state of infidelity, in which God has concluded him: and he does not think fit to give to every man that grace which can only cure him of his unbelief, and without which, and unless almighty power and grace go along with the means they have, they cannot believe; whereby the decrees, predictions, and declarations of God are fulfilled in them, #Joh 12:37-40

yea, as Christ is said to be set, or appointed, "for the fall of many in Israel", #Lu 2:34 so many are appointed to stumble at the Word, at him, the Stone of stumbling, and Rock of offence, being children of disobedience, and left as such;

when, to those who are a chosen generation, he is a precious cornerstone, and they believe in him, and are saved by him, #1Pe 2:7-9

hence we read of some, who, because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved, to them are sent by God strong delusions, and they are given up to believe a lie, that they might be damned;

not that God infuses any delusion or deceit into them, but because of their disbelief of, and disrespect to him and his Word, he suffers their corruptions to break forth and prevail, not giving restraining grace to them;

so that they become a prey to them that lie in wait to deceive; and being easy and credulous, they believe lies spoken in hypocrisy;

which issue in their damnation; while others, beloved of the Lord, and chosen from the beginning to salvation, obtain the glory of Christ, #2Th 2:10-14.

But though all this is a most certain truth, and is contained in the decree we are speaking of, yet condemnation, or everlasting punishment, seems to be meant in the passage quoted; or, however, this is what some men are foreordained unto.

 

Some will have it, that this refers to something forewritten, as they choose to render the word; to some prophecy concerning the condemnation of those persons, and particularly to that of Enoch, #Jude 1:14,15

but it is not certain that prophecy was ever written;

besides, a prophecy, or prediction, of anything future, is founded upon an antecedent predetermination and appointment;

God foretells by his prophets what will be, because he has determined it shall be;

if, therefore, the condemnation of those persons was foretold in any written prophecy, it was because God had decreed it should come upon them, or they be brought into it.

It seems to have the same sense with God's appointing men unto wrath; which, though not in so many words expressed, is manifestly implied; as when the apostle says,

"God hath not appointed us to wrath",

who yet were children of wrath, and deserving of it as others;

"but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ":

it suggests, that though he had not appointed them, yet he had appointed others to wrath, and who are therefore called

"vessels of wrath, fitted for destruction",

by their own sins and transgressions, #1Th 5:9 Ro 9:22.

With which agrees what is said of some wicked men, who are "reserved" in the purposes and decrees of God, "to the day of destruction";

in consequence of which, "they shall be brought to the day of wrath", which God has appointed for the execution of his wrath;

and hence the casting of the fury of his wrath, in all the dreadful instances of it, is called "the portion of a wicked man from God, and the heritage appointed; unto him of God", #Job 21:30 20:23-29

and this is the sense of #Pr 16:4

for the meaning of the text is not, nor is it our sense of it, as some misrepresent it, as if God made man to damn him;

we say no such thing, nor does the text;

our sentiment is, that God made man neither to damn nor save him;

but he made him for his own glory, and he will be glorified in him, in one way or another: nor that he made man wicked, in order to damn him;

for God made man upright;

men made themselves wicked by their own inventions;

which are the cause of damnation: but the true sense of the passage is, that

"the Lord hath made", that is, has appointed "all things for himself", for his own glory: and should it be objected, that the wicked could not be for his glory, it is added,

"Yea, even the wicked for the day of evil";

that is, he has appointed the wicked for the day of evil,
to suffer justly for their sins, to the illustration of the glory of his justice.

 

Amen!!!

 

2 Thess 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you,
brethren beloved of the Lord,

because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation
through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

The topic in the verses is Salvation / sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: / he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ

and not related to when God chooses.

"God chooses whomsoever the Spirit quickens;" is an error.

 

Then essentially Calvinsm really is a works based religion.