1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Featured Calvinism and Context ?

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by Barry Johnson, Sep 13, 2020.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2020
    Messages:
    2,353
    Likes Received:
    171
    Faith:
    Baptist
     
  2. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2020
    Messages:
    2,353
    Likes Received:
    171
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Romans 3:23

    “For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;”
    I suppose this really doesn't mean all without exception?

    For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
    I suppose Jesus only died for the ungodly future calvinists ?
     
  3. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 29, 2020
    Messages:
    10,911
    Likes Received:
    1,458
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Barry, your ability to discern is in question here. You are desperately trying to move goalposts and compare apples to pumpkins.
    Read verse 22 for assistance.

    Romans 3:1-31 Then what advantage has the Jew? Or what is the value of circumcision? Much in every way. To begin with, the Jews were entrusted with the oracles of God. What if some were unfaithful? Does their faithlessness nullify the faithfulness of God? By no means! Let God be true though every one were a liar, as it is written, “That you may be justified in your words, and prevail when you are judged.” But if our unrighteousness serves to show the righteousness of God, what shall we say? That God is unrighteous to inflict wrath on us? (I speak in a human way.) By no means! For then how could God judge the world? But if through my lie God’s truth abounds to his glory, why am I still being condemned as a sinner? And why not do evil that good may come?—as some people slanderously charge us with saying. Their condemnation is just. What then? Are we Jews any better off? No, not at all. For we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under sin, as it is written: “None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands; no one seeks for God. All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one.” “Their throat is an open grave; they use their tongues to deceive.” “The venom of asps is under their lips.” “Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness.” “Their feet are swift to shed blood; in their paths are ruin and misery, and the way of peace they have not known.” “There is no fear of God before their eyes.” Now we know that whatever the law says it speaks to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be stopped, and the whole world may be held accountable to God. For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin. But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it— the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God’s righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. Then what becomes of our boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? By a law of works? No, but by the law of faith. For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law. Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, since God is one—who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith. Do we then overthrow the law by this faith? By no means! On the contrary, we uphold the law.

    Do you see how Paul has clarified the all who sin and the all who believe? Is this something that you cannot grasp in the text?

    Why are you insisting on universalism?
     
    • Winner Winner x 1
  4. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2020
    Messages:
    2,353
    Likes Received:
    171
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Could you post on here where I've said everyone will be glorified?
     
  5. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2020
    Messages:
    2,353
    Likes Received:
    171
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I can read in there that 'through faith .'
    28Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. Not sure what point your making?
     
  6. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2020
    Messages:
    2,353
    Likes Received:
    171
    Faith:
    Baptist
    For there is no distinction: for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be recieved by faith .
     
  7. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 29, 2020
    Messages:
    10,911
    Likes Received:
    1,458
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Are you a universalist?

    Has every human had their sins atoned for and paid for by the shed blood of Jesus Christ? Has every human been cleansed by the blood of Christ when he died for sins?

    Even here you attempt to move the goalpost.
     
  8. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 29, 2020
    Messages:
    10,911
    Likes Received:
    1,458
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Is it hard to accept the prepositional phrase, "for all who believe?" Do you see how the "all" is qualified?
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  9. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 29, 2020
    Messages:
    10,911
    Likes Received:
    1,458
    Faith:
    Baptist
    It seems you intentionally ignore the prepositional phrase, "for all who believe."
    So much for your inductive study of scripture.
    Barry, it is obvious to all that you desperately want to ignore what the text tells you.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  10. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2020
    Messages:
    2,353
    Likes Received:
    171
    Faith:
    Baptist
    - yes every Human has had their sins paid for .
    - No this does not secure anyones Glorification.
     
    #50 Barry Johnson, Sep 22, 2020
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2020
  11. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2020
    Messages:
    2,353
    Likes Received:
    171
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I don't believe anyone who does not believe will be glorified.
     
  12. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2020
    Messages:
    2,353
    Likes Received:
    171
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Only those that believe recieve. How have you missed that point ?
     
  13. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2020
    Messages:
    2,353
    Likes Received:
    171
    Faith:
    Baptist
    The bible says all who believe recieve.
     
  14. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 29, 2020
    Messages:
    10,911
    Likes Received:
    1,458
    Faith:
    Baptist
    They have been made holy and perfect by Jesus atoning sacrifice. How is it that you can say they are guilty of hell when Jesus blood effectively makes them righteous?
     
  15. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 29, 2020
    Messages:
    10,911
    Likes Received:
    1,458
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Do all believe?
     
  16. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 29, 2020
    Messages:
    10,911
    Likes Received:
    1,458
    Faith:
    Baptist
    But, their sins are entirely paid for and they are made righteous before God?
    Belief must therefore be a work that is demanded for heaven, even though the person's sins have been completely paid for and redeemed.
    Tell me how a redeemed person is rejected by God purely on the bases of whether or not the person chose to believe.
     
  17. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 29, 2020
    Messages:
    10,911
    Likes Received:
    1,458
    Faith:
    Baptist
    So, a person who has been full redeemed by Jesus shed blood is still rejected or received by God, not by grace, but by merit of belief.
    Amazing non-belief, how sour the sound, that cast out a bad thinker like me. My sins were paid for and I was as white as snow, yet I was cast to hell because I didn't make the right choice. Was perfect, but now I'm in hell. Is that how the song goes?
    Or does it go like this?
    "Amazing belief, how sweet my choice, that saved a paid and redeemed person like me. I once didn't believe, but then I changed my mind. Never lost, but I chose to see."

    Barry, I don't suppose you can see the massive flaws in your teaching that all have been redeemed, but only the ones who choose to believe go to heaven.
    I will note that many universalists hold your view and simply say that dead people go to a hell-like place until they choose to believe and upon believing God welcomes them to heaven.
     
  18. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2020
    Messages:
    2,353
    Likes Received:
    171
    Faith:
    Baptist
    which verse says this ?( people who have not recieved , I mean )
     
  19. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2020
    Messages:
    2,353
    Likes Received:
    171
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Obviously not . Only those who believe recieve . John 1.12 . Rom 5.2 . Rom 5.11. Eph 1.13-14
     
  20. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2020
    Messages:
    2,353
    Likes Received:
    171
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Christ’s life, not his death is what saves. (Rom. 5:10; 1 Cor. 15:17)

    Sinner is saved by regeneration, not atonement. (Tit. 3:5)

    Glorification is what’s limited, not atonement. (Rom. 3:23; 8:17-30)

    When Christ said, “It is finished,” on the cross, everyone was still in their sins as per 1 Cor. 15:17.

    Atonement is one component of many components in salvation. It alone is not what saves. (Tit. 3:5; Rom. 5:10)

    Atonement is a prerequisite for salvation, not the execution of it. (Rom. 5, 8; 2 Cor. 5; Tit. 3:5).

    The Atonement must be received. (Rom. 5:11, 17; Jn. 1:12; 1 Cor. 15:1-4)

    The Atonement does not glorify anyone. (Rom. 8)

    What Calvinists call “the golden chain of redemption” contains no direct reference to the atonement. (Rom. 8:29-30)

    Belief that salvation for anyone was secured on the cross constitutes a denial of the necessity of the resurrection (1 Cor. 15:17)
    Salvation is eternally secured by the sealing of the spirit, not “election.” (Eph. 1:13-14; 4:30; 2 Cor. 1:22)
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
Loading...