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Calvinism Misrepresents the Meaning of Death

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by JD731, Sep 29, 2020.

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  1. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    and the KJV are BOTH wrong in their translation of the Greek! As the KJV is in Titus 2:13, "Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ", which makes "God" and "our Saviour Jesus Christ", TWO Persons, whereas the Greek, if you can read it, says grammatically, ONE PERSON is meant!. The same error in in 2 Peter 1:1. The KJV is NOT infalliable and ONLY another translation which is very good!
     
  2. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    This is not a Bible translation argument. Maybe you can't read. I don't care what you think about the KJV .
    What I do care about is you making false accusations when all I did was Quote scripture. You don't like what God's word says then take it up with God. Oh I almost for got you can't spell.
    MB
     
  3. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    :Rolleyes
     
  4. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    We still sin daily after saved!
     
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  5. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Spiritually dead refers to not being in a relationship with God!
     
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  6. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Adam was a created being, Jesus was the eternal Creator
    Adam sinned and spiritual died Jesus never did either
     
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  7. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    ONLY Jesus ever lived a sinless life!
     
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  8. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Agreed, as the Granville Sharp rule applied towards both Peter and Paul states Jesus is the One person in view here!
     
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  9. Wesley Briggman

    Wesley Briggman Well-Known Member
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    JD, I am waiting for you to supply supporting documentation from a Calvinist source. I am not interested in your opinion of what they teach. If they are teaching false doctrine they are guilty of heresy. If you are charging them with heresy with no proof, you are a liar.

    Prove me wrong!
     
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  10. JD731

    JD731 Well-Known Member

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    Thank you Wesley for desiring proof. We are dealing with the subject of death here and Calvinists have told me that death makes a sinner unable to believe in God. They call the doctrine total depravity and liken spiritual death to physical death and use Lazarus in John 11 as a proof text. Calvinists on this very board have used that nonsensical logic and have told me that sinners are like Lazarus and so dead that God must wake them up from this condition before they can respond to the preaching of the cross by believing it and being reborn. They teach a doctrine called "determinism." That doctrine teaches that God pre determines all events of history. That is false doctrine and heresy.

    The scriptures say that Jesus Christ came into the world to save sinners. Calvinists say Jesus Christ came into the world to save the prechosen for salvation. I am charging Calvinists with preaching a false gospel unless you can produce evidence that you or someone you know were prechosen and God said so. I can’t believe anything about God that is not written down. If you are testifying that God did something and he says nothing about it I simply do not have any way to verify this act of God. I have given Calvinists many things God has said plainly and they have not believed them.

    Everything Calvinists teaches documents their heresy. The comments by Calvinists on this board documents their false doctrines .I am not telling you this to anger you but because it is true. If you hold to these false doctrines then you need to reassess your own relationship with God according to the scriptures admonition here;

    2 Cor 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

    Silly advice for a prechosen predetermined saint without a choice if you ask me.
     
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  11. JD731

    JD731 Well-Known Member

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    Physical death refers to not being in a relationship with the the body.
     
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  12. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

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    I agree.

    As the immediate poster has stated ( and that I agree with ),
    I see that spiritual death refers to not being in a loving relationship with God:

    "Dead in trespasses and sins" ( Ephesians 2 ).
    "Haters of God" ( Romans 1:30 ).
    …"will not come to me that you might have life."
    "If they hate you know that they hated me first."
    See Romans 1:18-32, Romans 3:10-18, John 3:19-20, Psalms 10, Psalms 14 and many others.

    I don't see the issue being with what you call "Calvinism", JD.
     
  13. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

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    I realize that you are addressing Wesley in this post, but I felt the need to offer a reply:

    Respectfully,
    I would argue that anyone who is not preaching and teaching all that Jesus, Peter, Paul and the rest of the prophets including Moses and David wrote, is not preaching the entirety of what God has done for sinners.

    Unless you can produce evidence that John 6:37-47,John 6:64-65, John 8:43-47, John 17:2, Ephesians 1:3-14, Ephesians 2:1-10, Acts of the Apostles 2:47, Acts of the Apostles 13:48, Romans 8:28-33, Romans 9, Romans 11, 2 Thessalonians 2:13, Psalms 65:4, and many others don't mean exactly what they say, then I will have to disagree with you.

    God told the people being addressed that they were chosen to salvation by Him...
    that is all the evidence that I need, sir.

    Because the Lord wrote it down, I believe those words.
    God did do something, and the words on the page are what verify it.
    I for one, have given many things that God has said plainly, yet you have not believed them.
    I do not know why, but I can do nothing else but continue to direct your attention to the words on the page.

    Since we are at an impasse, I will simply leave things as they are and agree to disagree with you.

    According to the Scriptures, we as men have already made our choice, and continue to do so every day.
    We willfully reject God and His words in favor of our sin and love of it.
    It is because of this sin problem, that God has to do His miraculous work of making someone born again.

    So to me, stating that man does not have a choice in the face of all that the Scriptures have to say about our spiritually dead condition, is like saying that someone who has already made their choice, doesn't have one.

    We chose...( Romans 1:18-32 ).
    He gave us over to it.:(


    This is my last reply in this thread.
    May God bless you in many ways and may you remember His grace towards you, especially in your times of need.
     
    #53 Dave G, Oct 1, 2020
    Last edited: Oct 1, 2020
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  14. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    True but the Saved will never have sin imputed to them. If our sins counted against us after Salvation we would have to get saved again everyday If we wear the righteousness of Christ all God see's is His Son's righteousness.
    MB
     
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  15. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    God also knows that we are in the process of becoming more into Image of jesus, as not a finished product..
     
  16. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Spiritual dead refers to us not being in a Covenant relationship with God!
     
  17. JD731

    JD731 Well-Known Member

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    Whether they were created or not created is not the point. The point is that both these men were said to be in the image of God in the OT and they were said to be the son of God. No other person in the OT could claim this. All men in the NT who trust in Jesus Christ are said to be sons of God. What is the difference in these two men in the OT and all other men in the OT? Two things are different. They have the indwelling Spirit of God in their bodies. This makes them like God in that they are a trinity. Trinity means three in one and one in three. As a trinity, all these 3 parts of a man can be separated and yet they are still the same man. These three parts are the soul, the body, and the Spirit for these two men. Sin was the agency that separated them both from God. When they are separated the result is called death. Since the Spirit is the breath of God and also a person, a member of the Godhead, he gives the man his divine nature and a relationship with God. The second thing that makes them different from all other is that they are totally in tune with God and are at one with him. The body of Adam was more than likely a glorified body like the body of our Lord when he rose from the dead. There is no sin to block the fellowship with God. Then Adam sinned and died spiritually. This means the Spirit of God, who is a person, departed from him. The image of God is now marred in Adam and he is a two part man. Here is what God says about his children;

    Gen 5:1 This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him;
    2 Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.
    3 And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, and after his image; and called his name Seth:

    In other words, Seth was not like God, he was like his father, Adam. This did not mean he was a sinner when he was born but it did mean he was a two part man. He was a body and a soul. Now, instead of being led by the Spirit of God he was guided by his conscience, which made him aware of good and evil but was not infallible and did not give him the power to overcome his lusts that leads to sin. Sin leads to death. The scriptures tell us that to him that knows to do good and doeth it not, to him it is sin. Paul says in Rom 7 that he has a desire to do right but how to perform it he finds not. Because of this all men sin. Sin then is the cause of he separation of God and man. Take sin away and God and man can be reconciled and be as one. John the Baptist said of Jesus Christ, behold the Lamb of God which taketh away the sin of the world. Speaking of Jesus Christ, Hebrews 9:26 says in part, “but now once in the end of the would hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.” Because of this Paul was able to say in 2 Cor 5 these wonderful words.

    2 Corinthians 5:18-21
    18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
    19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
    20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God. ,
    21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

    This means that Adam’s race can be at one again with God because sin has been dealt with through death and resurrection. To be reconciled to God means to have his life in you. Reconciliation is a two way proposition.

    This post is getting too long and there is more to know. My op is about death and how Calvinism misrepresents it.
     
  18. Reynolds

    Reynolds Well-Known Member
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    Depends on exactly how you define soul. Soul and spirit become wrongly interchanged. I would say they have a soul, but lack a spirit.
     
  19. Reynolds

    Reynolds Well-Known Member
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    I have always defined spiritual death as separation from The Father. Right off hand, I can't think of any Calvinists who disagree with that. I am a Classical Arminian who holds total depravity. I agree with the Calvinists view that the separation can not be reconciled but by an active draw from The Spirit.
    My disagreement is on the ableness to resist the draw.
     
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  20. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

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    Apparently I wouldn't understand since I am a Calvinist. ;)

    However, the OP defined it for me to use in asking my question:
    Since the bible used the EXACT same word for "died" when talking about Adam died and when the frogs died, I was just questioning the theological ramifications of the definition of "death" in the OP.

    For what it is worth, I agree with YOUR reading of Genesis 3 over the OP. :Thumbsup
     
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