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Featured Adam versus believers

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by Agent47, Oct 29, 2020.

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  1. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I have not changed my position on this.

    The discussions you are pulling from are a little over your head.

    On the day Adam sinned that sin separated Adam from God and that state became a reality for all mankind. Physical death became certain as well (these are not unrelated) and became a reality for all mankind.

    My argument was about spiritual life as relational vs ontological. It involves how life is defined and abiding vs indwelling, the old being viewed as right vs a new creation.

    Again, I am right here and will tell you what I believe. You do not need to assume or decontextualize past statements to guess.

    Stop trying to tell me and others what I believe. I do not do that to you and it is dishonest of you to do that with others.
     
    #81 JonC, Nov 4, 2020
  2. Quantrill

    Quantrill Active Member

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    All my posts are legitimate posts.

    'Legitimate' here just means 'legitimate' to you. Again you like to pontificate. You ignore the posts you can't answer. Apparently those are not 'legitimate'. Just like you began back in post #(12) when you set your interpretation of Scripture above all others.

    Why start another thread? This one is fine. Just answer the questions.

    Quantrill
     
    #82 Quantrill, Nov 4, 2020
  3. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    By legitimate I mean grown up and not childish (granted, I responded in kind, tongue in cheek). Those posts were not questions but juvenile jabs.

    For example, there was no need for you to use "crawfish" (a term indicating you find me sexually attractive in the photo but think I am less attractive in person).

    The reason to start another thread is it is a different topic.

    My objection was that some (like @Iconoclast) treat their ideas as scripture and defend the practice by saying God given teachers told them so, or the Spirit revealed it to them, ect. Anyone can say that about anything. We have to have a higher view of scripture.
     
    #83 JonC, Nov 4, 2020
  4. Quantrill

    Quantrill Active Member

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    What you said, post #(7), was that Adam did not posses eternal life because he died.

    Adam was created in the image of God, body, soul, and spirit. That spirit was from the breath of God. The union of the body and spirit resulted in the soul. (Gen. 2:7) A perfect being in right relationship with God. Adam possessed eternal life at that point. Or, are you saying Adam was not perfect and was not in a right relationship with God?

    Just because Adam had the ability to sin, does not mean he didn't possess eternal life before he sinned. He just lost it. That's why we are called lost prior to salvation.

    Quantrill
     
    #84 Quantrill, Nov 4, 2020
    Last edited: Nov 4, 2020
  5. Quantrill

    Quantrill Active Member

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    There was plenty of reason to use the term crawfish on you. You back up. You claim things, but then when questioned, you back away like crawfish.

    Indeed, anyone can say anything...as you do now. As you have been doingl.

    Quantrill
     
    #85 Quantrill, Nov 4, 2020
  6. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    You could have just asked that.

    The reason is I say that is eternal life is by definition not temporary. We cannot have eternal life and die.

    No passage indicates Adam had eternal life. In fact, Scrioture states the opposite (Adam was created flesh, all flesh perishes).

    And of course, Adam did die so the life he had could not have been everlasting.

    Eternal life means "aint gonna die". Adam died.
     
    #86 JonC, Nov 4, 2020
  7. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    The term means you were sexually attracted to me (probably because of the beard) but know I am less attractive in person (I did shave my beard).

    I have backed up what I said. You just did not like the answers.
     
    #87 JonC, Nov 4, 2020
  8. Quantrill

    Quantrill Active Member

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    Jesus Christ died also. I guess He didn't have eternal life either until the resurrection. Correct?

    Quantrill
     
    #88 Quantrill, Nov 4, 2020
  9. Quantrill

    Quantrill Active Member

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    No you haven't backed up anything. You just pontificate. Then crawfish.

    Quantrill
     
    #89 Quantrill, Nov 4, 2020
  10. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

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    Tony?
    I think that even if you didn't, perhaps this thread should end.:Sneaky

    That's why I said this:
    According to what I see in Scripture, it's impossible to have spiritual life and not please God.
    To answer the question directly, Enoch pleased God and had spiritual life.
    Adam had it and lost it.

    I've also already made my view on Adam public in post # 6.
    I may be wrong and subject to correction, but that is my view.

    Adam died, spiritually.
    Before that, I see him having life, which is to know God.
    Romans 1 is very specific about men knowing God and then having their foolish hearts darkened.

    Now, with all that said...
    Gentlemen:
    @Quantrill , @JonC and @Iconoclast

    Please?
    Make peace and leave off contention in this case.
    For the sake of that peace, I ask that you step back and consider one another and to be kindly affectioned towards one another.

    If possible, as much as lies within each of you, be at peace.;)
     
    #90 Dave G, Nov 4, 2020
    Last edited: Nov 4, 2020
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  11. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

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    #91 Dave G, Nov 4, 2020
  12. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    It is my understanding, no. Genesis 3:22.
     
    #92 37818, Nov 4, 2020
  13. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I'm just messing with @Quantrill . He does have a good point bringing up anthropology.

    I am not quite sure why @Iconoclast is arguing with me about what I believe. We do agree on what Scripture states. The disagreement on this thread became a hypothetical question - what if Adam did not sin. That is certainly a foolish reason for people to be unkind to one another.

    When Adam sinned he was separated from God and that tear reached through history. I believe this is what was symbolized with the veil in the Temple. Adam disobeyed God. At that moment Adam was spiritually separated from God and spiritual death became a reality. Physical death also became a certainty. These are connected, I believe. When Adam sinned spiritual death and the certainty of physical death became a reality for all mankind. These are not, as far as I know, contested ideas.
     
    #93 JonC, Nov 4, 2020
  14. Quantrill

    Quantrill Active Member

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    No, you're not 'messing' with me. You're crawfishing.

    You made a point in post #(86). I answered in post #(87). You do not respond. Why? Because my point in (87) proves you wrong. As my other questions do also that you ignore.

    You like to pontificate but you don't like answering questions.

    If anyone considers my response harsh...just look at it as me 'messing' with JonC. Thus all is ok. Right?

    And I made no point concerning anthropology.

    Quantrill
     
    #94 Quantrill, Nov 4, 2020
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  15. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    :Roflmao

    No, I stood by everything I said. I defended my comments, backed them up. You just did not like my answer. You are trolling.

    You silly little troll you....

    trol.jpg
     
    #95 JonC, Nov 4, 2020
  16. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

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    I think that hypothetical questions do more damage than good...
    Which is why we, as believers should not go outside of Scripture.

    To me they create a batleground that really should not exist.
    I agree.
    I don't.
    Rather, I hold that what was symbolized by the tearing of the veil, was what is found in both Jeremiah 31:31-34 and Hebrews 8:6-13...
    Jesus Christ ushering in a new covenant, replacing the old.
    Agreed.
    Tentatively I disagree, but not greatly so.;)

    In Genesis 3:22, I see that if Adam and Eve had eaten of the Tree of Life, then they would have lived forever.
    That's why the Lord drove them out of the Garden.
    That in itself tells me that physical death was already a certainty, but a distant one.

    Granted, its a small point, and I must say that it is one that I would not break fellowship over.:)
    I once believed as you have stated and have only recently come to what I've posted above.
     
    #96 Dave G, Nov 4, 2020
  17. Quantrill

    Quantrill Active Member

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    Well, you can stand by a pile of manure. Doesn't mean it isn't a pile of manure.

    You haven't supported anything. You make claims and then expect everyone to bow down to them. Why? I don't know. You haven't showed me anything, other than you pontificate well, and crawfish better.

    Start with responding to post #(88).

    Please, don't play the 'troll' card. That's as empty as the 'Hitler' card. When you resort to that, it shows you have nothing.

    Quantrill
     
    #97 Quantrill, Nov 4, 2020
  18. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Yes. Hypothetical questions have caused much division. People forget we serve a Sovereign God, not a god of "if's" but a God who will accomplish His purposes.

    I agree with your conclusion of the tearing of the veil, but I also believe the veil itself represented that gulf that divided man from God.

    I agree that had Adam and Eve eaten of the Tree of Life they would have lived forever. An interesting discussion can be had about both of these "trees". God indicates that having sinned Adam could eat from the Tree of Life and live forever, which makes me conclude the Tree is more than simply a fruit tree.
     
    #98 JonC, Nov 4, 2020
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  19. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Troll,

    I have no idea what you think I did not support. I said we should not elevate our ideas to the level of Scripture and provided an example. What more can be said. It was a simple statement and one I stand by. It is wrong to pretend our understanding is scripture itself. You disagree. So what? If you go about your life and pretend you are a god, writing your own scripture. Find a few followers, shave your head and start a cult. It has nothing to do with me.

    You keep coming up with new questions (a moving trolling target).

    Jesus did not become man with eternal physical life. He is the Firstborn and we will be like Him.

    Good luck with that, Troll. I wish you the best.
     
    #99 JonC, Nov 4, 2020
  20. Quantrill

    Quantrill Active Member

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    See, you ignore again post #(88).

    Just because I come up with new questions doesn't mean you have answered the old. You have answered nothing.

    No you don't wish me the best. Your hypocrisy is showing now. Looks good though.

    Quantrill
     
    #100 Quantrill, Nov 4, 2020
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