Featured Who Draws Men Unto the Son?

Since how you apply it towards unbelievers, that would mean the redeemed are condemned already.. I do not see that as rightly dividing the word of truth.

John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. KJV

That is why I see the Redeemer as the same as the Saviour. The redeemed cannot testify to Jesus as their Redeemer unless they are believers. The unbelievers would not be testifying to Jesus as Their Redeemer & thus they are unredeemed.

 

Ephesians 1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; KJV

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. KJV

Since our believing in Him as being drawn to the Son by the Father ( John 6:44 ) to reveal His Son to us so we can believe in Jesus Christ ( Matthew 11:25-27 ), then our believing in Him is a work of God too as wrought in God.

John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. 21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God. Neither do I see that the reason the Holy Spirit comes in and the believer is born again is because of their belief. ~ KJV

Since clarity was needed by what I had meant, I agree, but we are not redeemed until the Father draws us unto the Son & reveal His Son to us so we can believe in Him to be saved.

I did not meant to infer that we saved ourselves by believing in Him, but that we are not the redeemed until by the grace of God we do believe in Him.

James 1:18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

I agree but I believe the contention I was responding to was when we are the redeemed to Brightfame52's post below in quote.

"Anyone Christ died for has been redeemed. Redemption isn't by believing but soely by Christ dying. Then the redeemed shall be drawn to Christ."

Mayhap he needed to clarify what he had meant but sinners are drawn to the Son to believe in Him to be redeemed. The redeemed are not drawn to the Son if they are already redeemed.

 

I believe clarity is needed because it sounds like how you posted here can be applied to universalism which I know you are not meaning to infer towards.

To understand this as aligning with the rest of scripture & knowing the mindset that Paul was coming from, citing when Christ died for us on the cross while we were yet sinners does not change the truth on how we received that justification achieved by His blood as in we are saved by believing in Jesus Christ which our believing was also done by the grace of God. We cannot be reconciled unless we had been saved by believing in Him. We cannot receive the atonement of what He had done on the cross unless we are saved by the grace of God by believing in Him.

What God has done for our atonement & how we receive that atonement by believing in Him with God's help & grace are 2 different topics. Brightfame52 cannot call the ones the Father is drawing to the Son as the redeemed for then why draw them unto the Son if they are redeemed already?

Universalism is reproved when in light of John 3:18 otherwise John would not be able to testify to the present state of sinners as still being condemned already for not believing in Jesus Christ.

John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. KJV

This was why I was countering Brightfame52 's post by meaning the redeemed are not drawn to the Son by the Father because they are not redeemed until they are drawn to the Son by the Father to believe in the Son to be redeemed by the grace of God.

 

Not sure how you apply that comment to the scripture below.

Romans 10:8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; 9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. 12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. 13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. 14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? 17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. ~ KJV

It is by His work in us enabling us to believe in Him thus believing in the gospel we have heard is how we received all the promises that comes with the gospel & thus all the promises that comes with Jesus Christ from the Father.

I agree. No one in Heaven will be able to say that they saved themselves by believing in Him since no flesh shall glory in His Presence per 1 Corinthians 1:29-31, but since our believing in Him is a work of God also, then that is to be applied whenever we say how we are saved or how we had received anything from the Father in regards to salvation per the gospel..

It is by His grace & by His help of the Father drawing us unto the Son to reveal His Son to us is how we believe in Him to be saved. Therefore when scripture speaks of us as believing in Him to be saved, it is with the understanding as other scripture testify that our believing in Him is a work of God too.

John 3:18-21 does testify to that.

Not always. 2 Timothy 2:10-13 testify of former believers that Jesus still abides in them. 2 Timothy 2:18 is an example of a former believer in how their faith was overthrown but Paul points out in 2 Timothy 2:19-21 that the foundation remains & the seal isn't going anywhere for why the former believers & not just unrepentant saints are still called to depart from iniquity to be received as that vessel unto honor In His House at the Marriage Supper table in Heaven to avoid being left behind ( Luke 13:24-30 & Revelation 2:18-25 ) to be resurrected after the great tribulation as vessels unto dishonor in His House. This is where the vessels of dishonor comes from that are still in His House as they are the disqualified reprobates but still saved.

 

Thank you for sharing but several things needed to be pointed out as you apply His words to mean.

If no one can come to Jesus "except" KJV the Father draws them, ( yours is "unless" per your Bible version ) how do you not see that as meaning the Father is the only One that does this?

So when you go to other scripture that opposes the plain meaning of that verse, you have to wonder if it is being applied rightly when it opposes John 6:44.

Jesus is testifying to Him being lifted up on the cross to draw all men unto Himself by the kind of death He would suffer is not conveying that only the people who saw Him do that are saved, because no one at that time were saved until Pentecost & afterwards when by believing in Him is how anyone are saved as they had received the permanent indwelling Spirit by faith as promised & not by sight so they all can share in this testimony per 1 Corinthians 12:13.

Hebrews 11:1Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. 2 For by it the elders obtained a good report. ~ KJV

Galatians 3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith....26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. KJV

1 Corinthians 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. KJV

The disciples' receiving by of the Spirit when Jesus was present was temporary but not the promised permanent indwelling Holy Ghost at our salvation.

John 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also..... 16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; 17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you..... 25 These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you. 26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. ~ KJV

This is the line of discernment for believers to know that is the only time we shall receive the Holy Spirit & that is at our salvation at the calling of the gospel when we believed in Him so that any encounter with spirits coming over them later in life, is not the Holy Spirit, but the spirit of the antichrist per 2 Corinthians 11:3-4 & 2 Corinthians 13:5 & 1 John 4:1-4

Readers can click on scriptural reference in blue to see the scripture in the KJV. Hit the < arrow to go back to here.

Since His lifting up on the cross is not the moment how men ae drawn unto Him to be saved, it is not applied in that same way as the Father is the One that draws men unto the Son to believe in Him to be saved.

Those references are for already saved believers. We go before that throne of grace holding fast our confession just as we draw near to God by going to Jesus in prayer Who makes intercessions for us being out High Priest of His people..

It is for the saved behaving as sinners that by drawing near the Son at that throne of grace in prayer is how that reference is to be applied if they wish to confess their sins so that Jesus will forgive them of their sins to cleanse them from all unrighteousness. 1 John 1:9.

 

Redemption was done at the cross by God but when did we receive that redemption achieved at the cross by God?

Since our belief in Him is because of the Father drawing us unto the Son ( John 6:44 ) to reveal His Son to us ( Matthew 11:25-27 ) so we can believe as He enables us, our believing in Him is a work of God. Our belief is God the Father's work & that belief on Christ's work is how we are redeemed & thus saved.

 

I agree but...

The Father doing the drawing & the revealing of His Son to believe in Him is how they are born again hence the new birth. Then they grow in His words in becoming fruitful as His disciples.

God the Father opening her heart does not mean she was saved in that moment but the Father drawing her when the Father enabled her to believe in His Son was the moment she experienced that new birth.

 

You need to clarify how those who remained unbelievers are not saved. Unbelievers have not received anything seeing how they are condemned already for not believing in the Son.

John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. 21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God. KJV

Look at how the disciples were led not to go to certain countries at that time but somewhere else.

Acts 16:6 Now when they had gone throughout Phrygia and the region of Galatia, and were forbidden of the Holy Ghost to preach the word in Asia, 7 After they were come to Mysia, they assayed to go into Bithynia: but the Spirit suffered them not. 8 And they passing by Mysia came down to Troas. 9 And a vision appeared to Paul in the night; There stood a man of Macedonia, and prayed him, saying, Come over into Macedonia, and help us. 10 And after he had seen the vision, immediately we endeavoured to go into Macedonia, assuredly gathering that the Lord had called us for to preach the gospel unto them. ~ KJV

God the Father knows whom is seeking Him from those that are not just as He knows who prefer their evil deeds rather than come to the light to be reproved of them. Since the Father is responsible for His work of our believing in Him, no believer can take that credit, but we should not deny that our belief & our faith in Him as given by God the Father in drawing us unto the Son is how we are saved. That is why Jesus said this to His disciples.

Matthew 7:6 Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you. 7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: KJV

When sinners tell Christians politely or otherwise, that they do not want to hear it, they should not preach, but leave the invitation to them that they can call on them when they do want to hear it & drop the subject to talk about something else or move on since it is on God to cause the increase.

1 Corinthians 3:5 Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man? 6 I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase. 7 So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase. ~ KJV

Our believing in the Son is God's work. Since it is our believing in the Son is how we are saved, we can thank the Father in Jesus's name for our belief.

 

You said that above and yet ..?

I reckon I am not understanding you for why you disagree.

 

How then are they born again of the Spirit until they believe? ( which I point out was not possible unless the Father drew them unto the Son to reveal His Son to them so they can believe as in that belief came from God too )