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Featured Jesus, The Sin-Offering for the Whole World.

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by SavedByGrace, Feb 11, 2021.

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  1. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

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    Amen.
    Regrettably,
    I find that I must disagree with the final sentence, which I've underlined, in this quote...especially in the light of Matthew 7:13-14 and Matthew 7:21-23.
    The Bible tells me that, relatively speaking, there are few that "find" everlasting life.

    But I do indeed agree with what I have highlighted above.
    I agree.

    I see that Jesus Christ acted as the propitiation, or "appeasement" to God's wrath and judgement, by going to the cross for a people.
    Who that people was and is, is what has been debated for many centuries among professing Christians.
     
    #21 Dave G, Feb 11, 2021
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  2. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

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    The Greek word used in Luke 18:13 is "ἱλάσκομαι", transliterated as " hilaskomai " and it means, " to be merci-ful", "to be propitious towards":
    Blue Letter Bible G2433.

    Also, "propitiate" literally means " to make appeasement for".
    To me, it's the perfect word in English, even though it has fallen into disuse within the past couple of hundred years.

    But I do agree that other terms, like "make atonement for", "atone for" and several others are close in describing what the Lord has done for His sheep.
    Moreover, if it was done for each and every person in the world, then mercy has been shown to all...
    Whether or not they have believed in Christ.

    But it doesn't stop there.
    Appeasement has been made, and God's wrath has now been turned;

    If this is for the "world" ( each and every person ) then this includes all men everywhere, not just the ones in Christ.
    In other words, there is currently no one in Hell, and no one will be cast into the Lake of Fire because God's wrath towards them was satisfied completely...

    That is, if "world" in 1 John 2:2 means "each and every person who ever lived and died".
     
    #22 Dave G, Feb 11, 2021
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  3. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

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    While it may be clear from simply taking 1 John 2:2 by itself,
    To me there is far more to what Jesus did as described in every statement that details His death, burial and resurrection.

    In those details ( outside of simply focusing on 1 John 2:2 and perhaps Hebrews 2:9 ), I see Matthew 1:21, John 10:11, Ephesians 5:25, Isaiah 53:8 and many others that when taken for what they say, result in a contradiction when the two viewpoints are compared.
    In other words, simply focusing on 1 John 2:2 to the detriment of Romans 5:6-11, for example, doesn't acknowledge that people were actually reconciled to God by the death of His Son...

    A reconciliation that is aimed not at unbelievers, but at believers only.
    Respectfully,
    "Theological slants" aside, I see that focusing on 1 John 2:2 as a "stand-alone" verse, or even adding a few to it ( such as Hebrews 2:9 ), is not taking all that the Bible says about the atonement into account and weighing it very, very carefully.
     
    #23 Dave G, Feb 11, 2021
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  4. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

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    I once saw it that way, but I no longer do.

    To me, His advocacy, atonement, mediation, justification by His blood, and all other aspects of Who the Lord Jesus is and what He did and does, extends to His sheep and not to anyone else.
    To say that it did, is to say that all men are forgiven, and all men have been justified by His blood...
    All men are reconciled and no longer enemies in their hearts and minds from God's point of view.

    A salvation that is conditioned by man's response, and not God's rightful prerogative to have mercy and compassion on whom He wills ( Exodus 33:19, Romans 9:14-18 ), is not what I see the Scriptures teaching.

    Rather, it is conditioned perfectly on His right to decide who to save by His grace and mercy alone;
    Not to let us as sinful and rebellious men decide who He saves.
     
    #24 Dave G, Feb 11, 2021
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  5. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

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    Scripture tells me that I was justified by the blood of Jesus at the cross, not when I believed ( Colossians 2:13-14, Romans 5:8-11 ).

    As an example of this individual justification,
    Paul said that he was crucified with Christ ( Galatians 2:20 )...
    I understand that to mean that when Christ went to the cross and was crucified, every person that was written in the Lamb's Book of Life from the foundation of the world ( Revelation 17:8 ) went to the cross "with" Him...

    That is what makes Ephesians 5:25 and many others so significant.
    Christ's work on the cross is not, and never was, "potential", but was performed for a people that would later ( and many before ) be called out of darkness and into the light and to an eternal relationship with Him.

    It was definite, and had a specific purpose in mind.

    That stated, my only purpose in making these posts was to reply to the subject at hand and not to discuss it further with the OP, as to me, it really isn't a topic that I have easily understood from the Scriptures until relatively recently;
    Therefore I think that anyone who does come to agree with me, is going to see that Christ's atonement must be developed, not from a few "verses", but with regard to all of the "legal language" found in the passages that state why He died, for whom He died and what it specifically accomplished.

    Stated simply,
    Christ's reason for allowing Himself to be crucified was to accomplish a definite work for His Father and for a people...
    It actually redeemed them, justified them, and made reconciliation for them;
    Making appeasement for our sins and pleasing His Father for us, as His covenant people.

    Otherwise, there are far too many contradictions that end up with people paying for sins eternally in the Lake of Fire who have been both reconciled and have been made satisfaction to God for.

    God's wrath cannot be both satisfied and still be white-hot towards those that Christ has made restitution for.
    Also, God cannot and will not ever have anyone that He really loves, cast into the Lake of Fire to suffer eternal torment.

    Those that He loves are His children and they are beloved.
    Those that He hates are not, and never were, His to begin with.


    Good evening to you, sir.
     
    #25 Dave G, Feb 11, 2021
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  6. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

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    https://www.grace-ebooks.com/library/John Gill/JG_Cause of God and Truth The.pdf

    is one of 60 or so Defences of 'Universal Atonement', from the 17-1800s, found in the First Part of The Cause of God and Truth:

    Section 57—1 John 2:2. "And he is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world."

    For every solid, fancy, sure-thing, fast-buck 'Text" that a Garden of Eden II proponent advances, there are two or three or four more, in historical attacks to God's Messages in The Bible that Modern Heretics are unaware.

    Each of them has been stated, by what The Eternal Word of calls, "Unbelievers" and rebuked, by God's people, for Two-Thousand years.

    As John is writing to, "My little children",
    the meanig of I John 2:2 is:


    1 John 2:2

    And he is the propitiation for our sins
    For the sins of us who now believe, and are Jews:

    and not for ours only;
    but for the sins of Old Testament saints, and of those who shall hereafter believe in Christ, and of the Gentiles also, signified in the next clause:

    but also for [the sins] of the whole world;
    the Syriac version renders it,
    "not for us only, but also for the whole world";

    that is, not for the Jews only, for John was a Jew,
    and so were those he wrote unto, but for the Gentiles also.

    Nothing is more common in Jewish writings
    than to call the Gentiles (amle) , "the world";

    and (Mlweh lk) , "the whole world";

    and (Mlweh twmwa) , "the nations of the world" F12;

    (See Gill on 12:19); and the word "world"
    is so used in Scripture;
    see ( John 3:16 ) ( 4:42 ) ( Romans 11:12 Romans 11:15 ) ;

    and stands opposed to a notion the Jews have of the Gentiles,
    that (hrpk Nhl Nya) , "there is no propitiation for them" F13:

    and it is easy to observe,
    that when this phrase is not used of the Gentiles,
    it is to be understood in a limited and restrained sense;
    as when they say F14,

    (Jewish Writings:)

    ``it happened to a certain high priest, that when he went out of the sanctuary, (amle ylwk) , "the whole world" went after him;''


    which could only design the people in the temple. And elsewhere F15 it is said,


    ``(amle ylwk) , "the "whole world" has left the Misna, and gone after the "Gemara";''


    which at most can only intend the Jews; and indeed only a majority of their doctors, who were conversant with these writings: and in another place F16,


    ``(amle ylwk) , "the whole world" fell on their faces, but Raf did not fall on his face;''


    where it means no more than the congregation. Once more, it is said {q}, when


    ``R. Simeon ben Gamaliel entered (the synagogue), (amle ylwk) , "the whole world" stood up before him;''


    that is, the people in the synagogue: to which may be added F18,


    ``when a great man makes a mourning, (amle ylwk) , "the whole world" come to honour him;''


    i.e. a great number of persons attend the funeral pomp:
    and so these phrases, (ygylp al amle ylwk) ,
    "the whole world" is not divided, or does not dissent F19;

    (yrbo amle ylwk) , "the whole world" are of opinion F20,
    are frequently met with in the Talmud, by which,
    an agreement among the Rabbins, in certain points, is designed;

    yea, sometimes the phrase, "all the men of the world" F21,

    only intend the inhabitants of a city where a synagogue was,

    and, at most, only the Jews: and so this phrase, "all the world",

    or "the whole world", in Scripture,

    unless when it signifies the whole universe, or the habitable earth,
    is always used in a limited sense,

    either for the Roman empire,
    or the churches of Christ in the world,
    or believers,
    or the present inhabitants of the world,
    or a part of them only,

    ( Luke 2:1 ) ( Romans 1:8 ) ( 3:19 ) ( Colossians 1:6 ) ( Revelation 3:10 ) ( 12:9 ) ( 13:3 ) ;

    and so it is in this epistle, ( 1 John 5:19 ) ;

    where the whole world lying in wickedness is manifestly distinguished from the saints, who are of God, and belong not to the world;

    and therefore cannot be understood of all the individuals in the world;

    and the like distinction is in this text itself, for "the sins of the whole world" are opposed to "our sins", the sins of the apostle and others to whom he joins himself;

    who therefore belonged not to, nor were a part of the whole world, for whose sins Christ is a propitiation as for theirs: so that this passage cannot furnish out any argument for universal redemption; for besides these things, it may be further observed, that for whose sins Christ is a propitiation, their sins are atoned for and pardoned, and their persons justified from all sin, and so shall certainly be glorified, which is not true of the whole world, and every man and woman in it; moreover, Christ is a propitiation through faith in his blood, the benefit of his propitiatory sacrifice is only received and enjoyed through faith; so that in the event it appears that Christ is a propitiation only for believers, a character which does not agree with all mankind;

    add to this, that for whom Christ is a propitiation he is also an advocate, ( 1 John 2:1 ) ;

    but he is not an advocate for every individual person in the world; yea, there is a world he will not pray for ( John 17:9 ) , and consequently is not a propitiation for them.

    Once more, the design of the apostle in these words is to comfort his "little children" with the advocacy and propitiatory sacrifice of Christ, who might fall into sin through weakness and inadvertency;

    but what comfort would it yield to a distressed mind, to be told that Christ was a propitiation not only for the sins of the apostles and other saints, but for the sins of every individual in the world, even of these that are in hell? Would it not be natural for persons in such circumstances to argue rather against, than for themselves, and conclude that seeing persons might be damned notwithstanding the propitiatory sacrifice of Christ, that this might, and would be their case.










     
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  7. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    I doubt there will be a response.
    He is unable to respond at this time.
    you have answered him in some detail as have others but he is not looking for the help.
     
  8. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    this shows that your argument is moot! there is not ONE verse in this entire Letter that agrees with this!
     
  9. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    that is because I am NOT interested in mans theology. There is NO other way to understand 1 John 2:2, with 5:18-19, than what I have said in the OP!
     
  10. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    1 John 2:2 NASB
    and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

    He Himself refers to our Lord Jesus.
    Is the propitiation refers to Jesus being the means of salvation.
    For our sins refers to John's intended audience of born anew believers.
    Jesus is also the means of salvation for the whole world, all humankind. Everyone God places into Christ spiritually is saved, and everyone not placed into Christ remains unsaved.
     
  11. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    There has not been a single argument in these replies, that in any way deals with what I have said in the OP. We must allow Scriptures to speak for themselves, without forcing their meaning into our theology. I have shown conclusively, that, the "our" in 2:2, which is the same as the "we" in 5:19, both referring to ALL truly born again Christians, and not, the OT saints, or Jewish Christians, which is clear from this Letter. The "whole world" in 2:2, is also the same as used in 5:19, which is clear who these are, "the whole world lies in the power of the evil one", which shows that "whole world" in 2:2, cannot mean ANY Christians, who can NEVER be said to in any way, be in the "power of the evil one". In fact, 5:18 is also clear, that the "WE" are "born of God". Only ones personal "theology" will force a meaning that is NOT what the Bible clearly says.

    This verse, like the correct understanding of John 3:16, completely destroys the false teaching that Jesus Christ only died for the "elect". This is further seen from the fact that Judas, as shown in Luke 22, that he not only took the bread and wine, that represents the body and blood of Jesus Christ, but was told by Jesus, "“This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you" (20), where the YOU includes Judas! This is what the Bible actaully teaches.
     
  12. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    this is Reformed theology and NOT what the Bible says!
     
  13. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Thanks for the insight concerning Luke 22.
     
  14. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    This is just a taint so post pushing false doctrine.
    John 1:4
    In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men.
    John 3:15
    so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life.
    John 6:56
    “He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him.
    John 15:5
    “I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing.
    Acts 17:28
    for in Him we live and move and exist, as even some of your own poets have said, ‘For we also are His children.'
    2Corinthians 5:21
    He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

    When God puts us into Christ (1 Corinthians 1:30) we undergo the washing of regeneration and arise in Christ a new creation, born anew from above. This is Christianity 101
     
  15. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    what you said in #30, about God "placing" some into Christ, and "not placing" others, is what the Reformed teach about election to salvation! Those who are elected by God for salvation, will be saved, and the rest, damned. This is what your post says!
     
  16. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Stop misrepresenting what I post, just quote what I said.
    Your denial that God puts individuals into Christ spiritually is denial of biblical doctrine. Not my doctrine, or Reformed doctrine, but verse after verse, of which I listed several.

    The Calvinists deny God credits our faith as righteousness (Romans 4:4-5, Romans 4:23-24) and therefore deny our conditional election as taught in 2 Thessalonians 2:13, where we are chosen for salvation through or by reason of, faith in the truth.

    How are we chosen individually, God sets us apart in Christ, the sanctification by the Spirit.
     
  17. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    when they are "put into Christ", is the main issue. The Bible says "on believing" (Ephesians 1:13-14). Reformed theology says, "before the foundation of the world".

    On 2 Thess 2:13, there are two distinct readings:

    ἀπαρχὴν] B F G P 075 33 81 256 326 365 1573 1739 1881 1912 2127 2464 itc itdem itdiv itf itx itz vg syrh copbo Ambrose1/2 Didymusdub Pelagius Theodorelat(1/2) Cyril Euthalius John-Damascuscomm CEI TILC
    ἀπ' ἀρχῆς] ‭à D K L Ψ 0150 6 104 181 263 330 424 436 451 459 614 629 630 1175 1241 1319 1852 1962 1984 1985 2127 2200 2492 2495 Byz Lect itar itb itd ite itg itmon ito vgms syrp copsa arm eth geo slav Ambrosiaster Ambrose Chrysostom Theodorelat(1/2) Varimadum Theodoret Vigilius John-Damascustext

    The first "because God chose you as the firstfruits to be saved" (ESV, etc), as in Romans 16:5, "Likewise greet the church that is in their house. Salute my wellbeloved Epaenetus, who is the firstfruits of Achaia unto Christ"

    The second "God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation" (KJV, etc)
     
  18. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    The ESV, NLT and NIV all corrupt the verse, changing the noun "salvation" into the verb "saved" to hide the conditional election message of the original text. Chosen through (instrumentality) setting individuals apart by reason of faith in the truth.

    Yes, individuals are placed into Christ "on believing" as determined by God alone. If He credits the person's faith, then He places they into Christ. If not, they remain unelected and unsaved.

    Yes Reformed says Ephesians 1:4 indicates individuals were chosen for salvation before creation, but that interpretation is precluded by 1 Peter 2:9-10. James 2:5 say individuals are chosen who are rich in faith and heirs to the kingdom promised to those who love God. So scripture is clear, the when we are chosen is during our lifetime, after we have lived without mercy.
     
  19. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    This is a false statement. You are clearly interested in man's theology. That man is you.
    What you are displaying is a prideful and willful rejection of all other beliefs that are steeped in history while you demand your personal belief (not accepted by any but you) is God's truth. Can you at least acknowledge your pride?
     
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  20. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Once again the Calvinist changes the subject and personally attacks the messengers of truth. This is all they have, folks, spew false charges as they run from scriptural doctrine.
     
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