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Abram's Limited Belief in Gen. 15.

Discussion in 'Other Discussions' started by Jacob59, Feb 25, 2021.

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  1. Jacob59

    Jacob59 Member

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    Vss. 1-5 state what God had said after which in vs.6 Abram "Believed in the Lord; and he [The Lord] counted it to him for righteousness."

    1.) "Fear not."
    2.) "I am thy shield."
    3.) "[I am] Thy exceeding great reward."
    4.) "[An heir son] Shall come forth out of thy bowels."
    5.) "So shall thy seed be [numbered as the stars].

    These specific ststements from God were what Abram Believed, whereby it was counted for Righteousness. In these 5 there is nothing about redemptive Prophecy, a saving Messiah, Believers being born of the Spirit, a Kingdom within our hearts, walking in the Light of God, in grafting of Gentiles, enduring Godly works, spiritual unity and fellowship within Believers, or resurrection unto Glory in Eternity.

    It can easily be observed the 5 components of Abram's faith really have nothing in common with us today. Conversely, our faith as well has nothing in common with Abram. Therefore, the citation of Patriarch Faith in Hebrews 11 is only a generalized introduction to faith in The New Covenant of Jesus.

    In fact, at this Lordopheny, no mention is made of Abram falling prostrate and being overcome in His Presence. In fact, Abram even went ahead and popped a question about the verity of what he had just heard God say.

    Think. If you had just experienced The Lord in front of you speaking your name and future business, would you feel a need to request verification of His utterance? I doubt it. You would not. Cheeky Abram did.

    This shows it is not appropriate for us to think we identify with Abram's faith. Gentiles will not be resting in Abraham's Bosom. Read what the text says instead of worshipping what might be in between the lines. Apples & Oranges.
     
  2. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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  3. Jacob59

    Jacob59 Member

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    Please look more carefully at the text.

    Jesus spoke the name "Abraham," not the "Abram" of Gen. 15:6. This means Abraham at the time he was still "Abram" did not see the time of Jesus. Jesus knew exactly what He was saying.

    More over cooked soup in today's Church habit of reading faith from in between the lines, "because it just feels so good to my heart!"
     
  4. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    James 2:20–23 But do you want to know, O foolish person, that faith apart from works is useless? Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar? You see that faith was working together with his works, and by the works the faith was perfected. And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “And Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him for righteousness,”...
     
  5. Jacob59

    Jacob59 Member

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    James is so very true upon that.

    Not sure why this relates to Gen. 15:6. Pound away as you need.
     
  6. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

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    Faith has an object.

    The Object Who Had Righteousness was Jesus.

    Abraham Trusted and HAD FAITH in the Perfect Righteousness of Jesus
    when God Gave him Repentance and Faith.

    Jesus' Righteousness was Imputed to him.

    JESUS' PERFECT BLOOD is properly Jesus Christ's

    and is in Him,

    as JESUS' LIFEBLOOD

    and

    ONLY BECOMES 'CREDITED to A Lost Sinner's soul'

    with THE COVERING OF HIS BLOOD

    and when The NEW SPIRITUAL BIRTH

    by THE HOLY SPIRIT ARE GIVEN

    to A Lost Sinner's soul BY GOD THE FATHER.

    Aware of The Godhead
     
    #6 Alan Gross, Feb 25, 2021
    Last edited: Feb 25, 2021
  7. timtofly

    timtofly Well-Known Member

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    Abram was more confident before conversion than after conversion?

    Is that not true of most humans?

    Conversion should result in less confidence in our human abilities and more reliance on God.

    God called Abram out of Ur. What if Abram was a ruler and was used to addressing any being that approached him the same way? I hope no one confuses a human political confidence with a confidence that comes from the Holy Spirit.
     
  8. Scarlett O.

    Scarlett O. Moderator
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    Cheeky? That's the best you can do?

    Good gravy! Do I have to list all of the righteous men and women of the Bible, Old and New Testament, who questioned God and wrestled with God's truth specifically to them?

    It's quite a number.

    I don't know exactly what your religious beliefs are, but you are seriously wrong about the faith of the righteous people of the Old Testament not being a saving faith. Many times in the Old Testament, God speaks of people having their sins forgiven.

    Do you believe in an afterlife? If so, do you believe that the righteous people of the Old Testament will be with Christ and Christians?

    If not, where do you think that they will spend eternity? There's only two choices.
     
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  9. Jacob59

    Jacob59 Member

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    No place in the Torah shows Abraham repenting, but he was corrected by God for his weak faith in God protecting him and Sarah from Abimelech.
     
  10. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Abraham is the father of the those who have received Lord Jesus and been saved, as we are his true spiritual heirs!
     
  11. Jacob59

    Jacob59 Member

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    Thanks for the speculation. I am now informed.

    Blessings.
     
  12. Jacob59

    Jacob59 Member

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    How does this materially affect your life today?
     
  13. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

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    God came to Speak with Abraham and the Instrument of His Word is implied to have brought Abraham to Conviction of his sinful condition before God, upon which God then, also, Granted him Repetenace, which is a Twin Doctrine to Faith in Jesus.

    God Credited The Righteousness of Jesus to Abraham.
     
  14. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Abraham saw His day and was glad!
     
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  15. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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  16. Jacob59

    Jacob59 Member

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    Who has implied the instrument of His Word? A Scholar, perhaps?

    Certainly not "We."
     
  17. Jacob59

    Jacob59 Member

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    Being "glad!" authenticates nothing.
     
  18. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Means that Jesus approved of Abraham view!
     
  19. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

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    "But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:" 2 Thessalonians 2:13

    “Abraham believed God," Romans 4:3

    2 Corinthians 5:19
    "To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation."

    Genesis 15:1
    "After these things the word of the LORD came unto Abram in a vision, saying, Fear not, Abram: I am thy shield, and thy exceeding great reward."

    "and he said, so shall thy seed be: as innumerable as the stars, as they were, even his natural seed, Hebrews 11:12; and especially his spiritual seed, who have the same kind of faith he had, and as they will be in the latter day particularly, Hosea 1:10.
     
  20. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Jesus and Paul both looked at Abraham as a model of faith to follow!
     
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