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Featured The "Psalm 12:6-7 thingie" used by KJVOs is false.

Discussion in 'Bible Versions & Translations' started by robycop3, May 16, 2021.

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  1. robycop3

    robycop3 Well-Known Member
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    When KJVOs are faced with the fact of no Scriptural support for the KJVO myth, they often try to counter with "Psalm 12:6-7 is proof text for KJVO." However, they ignore several facts about that supposition:

    1.) The AV makers included the following footnote for the 2nd them in V7- "Heb. him, I. euery one of them." That shows they knew V7 is about PEOPLE, not God's words. The AV makers subbed 'them' for 'him', as they knew the verse is about people & not just one person.

    2.) For the sake of discussion, let's say those verses ARE both about God's words. WHERE DO THEY MENTION THE KJV, by the slightest quark of the least implication?

    Thus, the KJVO myth remains without any Scriptural support. Therefore, it CANNOT be true.
     
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  2. Logos1560

    Logos1560 Well-Known Member
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    Michael Hollner asserted: “God used a ‘purified seven times’ (Psalm 12:6-7) refining process during all the English translations prior to the 1611 version, and used men to refine the 1611-1769 versions to give us a final product” (King James Only Debate, pp. 442-443, 2021 edition).
     
  3. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Ah, Psalms 12:7 refers to persons not verse 6.
     
  4. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Sounds like superstition or tradition to me than. A "purified seven"??? I do not understand this term.

    Who are these seven and how were they purified?
     
  5. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    How does a perfect translation ever need to get purified though?
     
  6. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    But he would not answer me as to what particular time in history the KJV became perfect. Seems like someone would have noticed at the time: "Hey, I just read through the KJV, and noticed that it is now perfect. A miracle!"
     
  7. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    Miraculous proofreading, it has to be. Wish I could have that done to our Japanese version.
     
  8. Marooncat79

    Marooncat79 Well-Known Member
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    John was there not a good Japanese translation available?

    Was the thrust to update language?

    TIA

    I do not remember you ever addressing the need before

    thanks again
     
  9. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Per the KJVO, had to be when the 1611 kjv was first completed!
     
  10. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Just need to get some of those 1611 Goggles!
     
  11. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    Conservatives in Japan use the Shinkaiyaku version, funded by the Lockman Foundation and done from the texts and after the principles of the NASB. It's a pretty good version.

    However:

    1. It was tough to get permission to print the Shinkaiyaku, so we wanted a version that anyone could use without permission and without paying. (The US Lockman Foundation actually sued and won against the Japanese version. The Japanese translators had to pay tons of money just to get permission to publish their own version.

    2. We wanted a colloquial version from the TR. There has only been one NT from the TR in Japanese history, the Nagai version, done by a Japanese pastor in very difficult classical Japanese. It has been out of print for many years.
     
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  12. Marooncat79

    Marooncat79 Well-Known Member
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    Very informative.
    Thank You
     
  13. Logos1560

    Logos1560 Well-Known Member
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    Do the Scriptures actually teach or support the new KJV-only purification process argument that KJV-only advocates may use to try to discount the many differences between the pre-1611 English Bibles and the KJV?

    The truth that is stated in Psalm 12:6 is the fact that "the words of the LORD are pure words" meaning 100% absolutely and wholly pure. Pure used in the particular context of describing the quality of the words of the LORD given to the prophets and apostles would clearly be asserting 100% absolute, complete purity or perfection with no mixture of any impurities at all.

    After the assertion of fact, then an illustration, simile, or comparison is given [as] to confirm that truth, not to contradict it by suggesting that there were some impurities in the pure words given to the prophets and apostles. Thus, the phrase "purified seven times" (Ps. 12:6) actually stated clearly concerning silver on earth is used to illustrate and affirm that the words of the LORD are 100% wholly, absolutely, completely, and perfectly pure when given by inspiration of God. This phrase about the refining or purification of silver obviously and clearly would not contradict the earlier assertion or statement of fact. That phrase does not indicate or assert that the words of the LORD are mostly pure or almost pure with a few impurities, defects, faults, corruptions, errors, or contaminants mixed in so that they needed to go through a gradual improvement or refining process of seven purifications in seven English translations or in seven purifications in the various editions of the KJV.

    Words of the LORD asserted to be wholly and completely pure in the positive or absolute degree could not be made purer; therefore, they would not have any impurities that need to be removed during a claimed purification process. Thus, the quality of being completely pure and completely free from all impurities that is asserted concerning the words of the LORD could not be increased. Nothing can be asserted to be purer than what is already 100% absolutely pure according to the meaning of pure used in the context. Pure in the positive degree would simply make a true assertion concerning what is described as being pure, and it does not compare it to other things. Pure is clearly not used in a comparative degree concerning the 100% absolutely and completely pure and perfect words of the LORD. The word of the LORD is perfect (Ps. 19:7). Pure words of the LORD have the very same absolute, complete purity as very pure words (Ps. 119:140). The use of “very” would emphasize the fact of absolute purity, but it could not increase the purity of words that are already 100% wholly and absolutely pure.

    KJV-only subjective, private interpretations or misinterpretations suggesting a purification process or refining process based on Psalm 12:6 could be considered an example of eisegesis, reading into a verse ideas that were not actually stated in it. KJV defender Thomas Corkish agreed: “Some have mistakenly said that the Bible has need to be ’tried’ (’refined’) seven times in order for it to be given as ’pure.’ Actually, it was as ’refined’ silver from the beginning” (Brandenburg, Thou Shalt Keep Them, pp. 143-144). He added: “The Bible is not a pure Word because of any derivation, development, revision, recovery, or improvement” (p. 149). KJV-only author Gary Miller wrote: “Purifying something seven times makes it almost perfect. But God’s words are perfect” (Why the KJB, p. 16). H. D. Williams acknowledged: “God’s Words are in no need of being ’cleansed’ or ’purified’” (Pure Words, p. 53). Glenn Conjurske observed: “If the New Testament which Tyndale produced in 1525 needed 244 years of refining and polishing ere it could be regarded as ‘absolutely authoritative,’ this operation was not preservation at all, but restoration” (Olde Paths, Sept., 1995, p. 198; Bible Version, p. 63).
     
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  14. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Would think though a Christian group would not be being to court someone trying to use their work out on the field, did not the Lord Jesus command us to freely give forth was we have been entrusted with by Him?
     
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  15. Michael Hollner

    Michael Hollner Active Member

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    Does your TR into Japanese include I John 5:7 as in the KJV? Do you have to pay money for your translation? I am a bit confused about the legal issues you mentioned.

    Blessings...

    P.S. I will take you up on your book offer. Are you the author and grandson of Mr. Rice?
     
  16. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Sorry, but that is what it sounds like to me. Is that a term the Church of England uses ("purified seven")? I never heard it before.
     
  17. Squire Robertsson

    Squire Robertsson Administrator
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    Yes, he is. The Lockman situation is a common one in the publishing world. John's work probably is available for purchase. However, the Lockman Foundation wanted fees for a "secondary use" of their work.
     
  18. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    Yes, we do include 1 John 5:7. I actually translated that verse many years previously for a tract translation I did. In answer to your question about payment, here is the English version of our NT copyright notice, included in every copy (including 86,000 Gospels of John handed out):

    Copyright Notice

    This New Testament has been translated from the Textus Receptus Greek New Testament. For information about the translators and translation method, please contact us at [email protected]. All rights are reserved for purposes of protecting this translation from unscrupulous people. Anyone is permitted to print, post on Internet websites and include in software this text or portions of it. Changes may not be made to this translation without permission. Permission is not granted to profit monetarily from this translation. This notice must be included as is in all printings.

    The Translators

    Yep, that's me.
     
  19. Michael Hollner

    Michael Hollner Active Member

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    I rejoice that you are translating the TR into Japanese. Despite our differences, may the Lord use your work and win souls for Christ. How do I order a hard copy of your translation, or is it available online?

    Blessings....
     
  20. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    Thanks for the encouragement.

    I don't handle the printing side of things, but the whole NT will be printed sometime later this year by the Bearing Precious Seed ministry, God willing. You can check out the project here at our final editor's (and dear friend) website: Lifeline Translation Japanese New Testament | 名寄インマヌエル聖書バプテスト教会
     
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