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Featured Cultural Interaction pt2

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by Iconoclast, Mar 22, 2021.

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  1. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    pg320-321
    In Christ, we are now a Kingdom of priests [ex19:6] [1 pet.2:9] fulfilling as God's church, what Israel as a nation failed to be.
    Various laws that indicated Israel's distinction from pagan nations around them,, and their separation to a special calling have also been transposed in their significance.
    That is, certain restrictions from the spheres of diet and customary social distinction from gentiles primarily pointed forward to their greater fulfillment in the church's separation as God's people to life and holiness as priests unto God.

    For examples are offered of specific laws given in the OT. time, not literally valid now, but in principle taught something in regards to separation

    Thus the validation and enforcement of the covenant law in Christ is not wooden, but , interpreted in terms of Christ as the eschatological fulfillment and confirmation of all its provisions.

    However, recognizing the importance of eschatology in interpreting the place of law in the coming of Christ the King does not leave us in the bewildering world of typological obscurantism or academic elitism that leaves the layperson wondering which way up to read the bible.
    .
     
  2. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    pg321/322

    Here is an opinion that I cannot confirm or deny;

    Meredith Kline, for example, a very capable and influential OT. scholar leaves one feeling that every Christian needs a Ph.D. in redemptive-historical hermeneutics before they can grapple with God's law and ethics. His innovative and novel" intrusion ethics"are, in this excessively dependant upon endless typologies.
    For Kline, the eschatological kingdom" intrudes" into history in the OT.law and theocracy.
    Somehow, the OT.theocracy, even though it was historically before the coming of the Messiah king, was in some senses closer to the eschatological kingdom of God than the New Covenant Church is under the New Covenant.!

    Kline's theory leads him to argue for a religiously neutral state,[a functional impossibility] based on less than adequate biblical premises,, and rooted in too sharp a dichotomy between the Mosaic and New Covenants.

    Clearly then,sorting through the law and interpreting the Word of God correctly takes work, diligence, and discipline, though that task is not restricted to an elite few.

    Reformed scholar Motyer is insightful in offering helpful and simple principles of interpretation for dealing with the complexities of Old Covenant law.

    How do we know which specific laws and sanctions carry over to the present, and which do not?

    The principle remains, the practice does not.
    Where the practice and principle have only an ancient culturally or biblically imposed link, the practice has lapsed but the principle it once expressed remains:where practice and principle are,in the nature of the case, inseparable, both remain.
     
  3. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    pg 326
    Because the state steadily encroaching on the 2 basic social responsibilities of the family that is the custody of property , and of children, the state is relegating adultery to the realm of things peripheral and relatively unimportant.
    . Not until the authority of the family in this area is re established , will adultery again become a menace to society than a form of entertainment.
    In other words, the institution which is perceived to lie at the foundation of a healthy society , that is a true community ,will be protected by by serious sanctions. Where the deleterious effects of the collapse of the family, it's of the family, it's powers and responsibilities, are they instabilities, are temporarily masked by the state's intervention adultery can be viewed as merely a matter of consent and a form of entertainment because initially there seems to be few serious social consequethe family has ceased to be the center and found it has ceased to be the center and foundation of the community . But where a biblical view of the family, it's responsibilities and freedoms as reestablished again ,offenses against it all once again taken seriously
     
  4. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    pg329.

    1] Deviant sexual behavior constitutes Idolatry as it is a denial of the sovereignty and lordship of the God of scripture and the authority of His law.

    2]Sexual crimes involve The explicit dishonoring and despising of parents and of their authority, holding cheap their role in bringing us into the world and nurturing us.
    3] Sexual deviance does iexpress a spiritual and familial dysfunction that has shock waves which spread to impact the wider family, the nation and a people's relationship with God, all are interconnected. The Bible therefore places limits on sexual expression in order to honor God, honor the family, and bring about a flourishing community.

    He then goes to point out that consent base contemporary law by comparison is individualistic, selfish ,and destructive of community;
    our present social decline and the collapse of marriage are living proof of this.
    these factors begin to help us understand why the exemplary punishments attached to biblical laws regarding sexual conduct appear severe, sexual deviance constitutes idolatry, the cursing of parents, Treason.
    As such it undermines everything God's law aims at in the creation of a well ordered, harmonious prosperous, and safe community life.
     
    #124 Iconoclast, Jul 20, 2021
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2021
  5. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Next, he gets into a discussion of the penalties under the law, which is why I stopped looking at theonomy years ago.
    He however does point out that some capital offenses were not spoken of that way in 1 cor 5, and 6.
    He said the church did not have the authority to take life.
    I have to see how he develops this, and other questions.
     
  6. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Next is a lengthy discussion on the sins that called for the death penalty in the OT.
    Leviticus 20 is looked at.
    He carefully demonstrates that such sexual sins spill over and infect the culture and needed to be cut off.

    The Pagan nations were cut off and the land vomit them out for these same things.
    Lev18:22-23 ...Lev.18.24-30..Lev.20:13,15-16

    God was protecting family and society by strict penalties then. Death penalties for sexual perversions were still on the books until a few hundred years ago.

    Several pages giving statistics and showing ;then pg345
    Our failure to punish incorrigible violent offenders and murderers with the biblically required death penalty
    Gen.9:5-6; Num35:16, Deut21.!8-21, in the name of rehabilitation and enlightened humanness has led to rampant evil.
     
  7. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    on pg348;
    limits of law;
    The bringing of man's temporal law into line with God's law does not mean, as some suppose, That puritan Christianity requires governments to force people to be obedient to the gospel and the whole of God's law;

    then on 351;
    a] All human governments are ultimately held accountable to God in terms of His law and standardsnot their arbitrary codes.

    b] taking into account all of scripture, biblical law upholds the death penalty as exemplary.

    c]The death penalty is not mandatory in all cases, allowing for considerable judicial flexibility

    d] The church does not bear the sword of the state but must recognize the validity of the death sentence and declare it spiritually by ex-communication unrepentant capital offenders from the life of the church.

    e+f] deal with historical things I am not in a position to make a judgment on.

    g]Capital crimes would be extremely rare in a Christian culture because the law acts as a restraint upon wickedness and because the gospel transforms lives.
     
  8. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    pg354;
    Certainly not all of the Puritans were agreed about all the details of how God's law was to be applied in their centuries.

    Likewise, modern Puritan thinkers are not all agreed on the precise details of how God's law could be creatively applied to our modern society-in part because we have moved so far from our historic faith, it is difficult to see into a future context of Christian revival.

    pg358;
    While we must take care to exhibit Christian charity toward those who hold a dispensational reading of scripture, there can be little doubt that the impact of a dispensational hermeneutic has wrought havoc on the average Christians ability to effectively interpret Scripture for two or three generations, and thereby on the church's missiological outlook. leading in many cases to inertia and apocalyptic obsession rather than concern for rebuilding a godly generation.
    In the face of growing social decline, eschatologies of defeat and retreat have proliferated, hand in hand with an antinomian attitude toward the law of God in church and state, with the criminal being the primary beneficiary of this lawless sentimentality
     
  9. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Pg.356-7
    1]Sovereignty is an attribute of God Alone, not of man or the state. God Alone is Lord or sovereign over all things; over State ,School, family ,vacations society and all things else.
    2] the Bible is given as the common law of men and Nations and was for most of U.S. history the common law.
    3] salvation is not by politics, education ,the church ,or any agency or person other than Jesus Christ Our Lord.
    4] the myth of Machiavelli that by State Control at the top bad men can make a good Society is at the root of our cultural crisis in growing collapse.
    A good omelette cannot be made with bad eggs truly redeemed men are necessary for a good Society.
    5] civil rulers who rule without the Lord and his law word are as Augustine said no different than a mafia only more powerful.
    6] the state is not the government, but one form of government among many, others being the self-government of the Christian Man, the family, the school, the church, vocations and Society,. the state is civil government a Ministry of Justice.
    7] for the state to acquaint itself with government is tyranny and Evil.
    8] the Christian man is the only true free man in all the world, and he is called to exercise dominion over all the Earth.
    9] humanism is the way of death and is the essence of original sin ,or man trying to be his own god.
    10] All men, things ,and institutions must serve God will be judged by him
     
    • Winner Winner x 1
  10. SovereignGrace

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    I'm late to the game, but I'm here, FWIW. I had read a previous thread concerning cultural interaction and I thought of missionaries and their work. When they go to places overseas, they don't just go there and give them the gospel and then leave. Many times they live in their midst, helping them procure clean drinking water, building them better homes to live in, they are literally living with them in their villages. So, they do not just give them the gospel by mouth, but with their hands, feet, and hearts. They are living out the gospel before them. They are engaging the culture by not only telling them of a better way, but by also showing them this better way.
     
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  11. Salty

    Salty 20,000 Posts Club
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    Six hour warning

    This thread will be closed no sooner than Sat 2 am EDT/ Fri 11 pm PDT
     
  12. SovereignGrace

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    Or 7:00 am British time. :D
     
  13. Salty

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    This thread is closed

    Feel free to start a new thread
     
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