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The Glory of God in Predestination

Discussion in 'Other Discussions' started by KenH, Jun 29, 2022.

  1. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

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    Romans 9:11 (for the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)

    Romans 9:14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

    Romans 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

     
  2. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946 Well-Known Member
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    I'm reminded of when Abraham pleaded with God on the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah... The way I read it Abraham knew more than God but we must always remember that God knows way more than we do... I'm sure you remember Hank and one of his favorite verses was this:

    Genesis 18:25 That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from thee: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?

    The LORD knows who his children are and that's ALL that matters, whether we do or not... Brother Glen:)
     
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  3. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    The common mistranslation.

    ". . . nor had practiced anything good or evil, . . ." Modern Literal Version.
     
  4. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Yes, the word has within its range of meaning the practice of behavior, whether good or bad. However, the word also has the meaning of accomplishing something good or bad. And this is the meaning of Romans 9:11 according to Thayer's. And to claim all the English translations with "had done," or have done are mistranslations seems farfetched. This includes NET, LEB, NASB, NKJV etc.
     
  5. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    God predestines is valid biblical doctrine. God predestines whatsoever comes to pass makes God the author of sin. And to claim God first compels us to sin, then punishes us for the sins He compelled seems farfetched. If God compels us to sin, that would make our actions in accord with God's will, and therefore not a sin. The whole idea is hog wash.
     
  6. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    @Van
    πραξαντων in it's plural is only used twice in the New Testament. Acts 19:19 and Romans 9:11.
     
  7. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

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    "We have established that creatures have no free will, and that human responsibility has no direct relationship to human freedom. God controls all things, including the thoughts and actions of man, but man is still responsible for his thoughts and actions precisely because God sovereignly holds him accountable.

    Responsibility presupposes accountability, but accountability does not presuppose ability or freedom. Rather, accountability presupposes one who demands accountability. Since God demands accountability – since he will reward righteousness and punish wickedness – man is accountable. Since God is sovereign, he decides what he wants to decide, and whether man has free will or not has no logical place in the discussion.

    For many people, now the question becomes one about justice. They insist that it would be unjust for God to punish those whom he has predestined to damnation, and who could not decide or perform otherwise.

    Paul anticipates this objection in Romans 9:19, and writes, "One of you will say to me: 'Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?'" He replies, "But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?'" (v. 20). God rules by absolute authority – no one can hinder him, and no one can question him. This is true because God is the creator of all that exists, and he has the right to do whatever he wishes with his creation: "Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?" (v. 21).

    The apostle continues, "What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath – prepared for destruction? What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory – even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?" (v. 22-24). This is still part of the answer to the question in verse 19: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" Paul is saying that since God is sovereign, he can do whatever he wishes, and this means he has the right to create some people destined for salvation, and some destined for damnation. Of course, those who are created and chosen for salvation rejoice in this doctrine, and those who are created and chosen for damnation detest it. In any case, there is nothing that anyone can do about it. Peter says regarding those who reject Christ: "They stumble because they disobey the message – which is also what they were destined for" (1 Peter 2:8).

    The issue of justice is brought up against the doctrine of reprobation only because people are impious and stupid. In its various forms, the objection amounts to the following:

    1. The Bible teaches that God is just.
    2. The doctrine of reprobation is unjust.
    3. Therefore, the Bible does not teach the doctrine of reprobation.

    Premise (2) has been assumed without any biblical or rational warrant. By what standard is a person to judge whether the doctrine of reprobation is just or unjust? If the Bible mentions it, then it is not up to us to decide the issue. Rather, the Christian reasons as follows:

    1. The Bible teaches that God is just.
    2. The Bible affirms the doctrine of reprobation.
    3. Therefore, the doctrine of reprobation is just.

    ...

    The doctrines of election and reprobation do not say that the elect receive mercy while the non-elect receive injustice. Since all human beings deserve damnation, the biblical doctrines of election and reprobation teach that those whom God has chosen for salvation would receive mercy, and what those whom he has chosen for damnation would receive is precisely justice – and that is why they would be damned. God has no obligation to show mercy to anyone at all, and that he shows mercy to some does not mean that he must show mercy to all.

    Once it is claimed that God is somehow required to be merciful to someone, we are no longer speaking of mercy, but justice. It is not mercy that grants what is required, but justice. But in this case justice results in eternal damnation and not salvation. What is "fair" is for everyone to be damned, since our sins have rendered this the proper punishment. We should be thankful that God is merciful to save anyone at all, rather than to accuse him with the blasphemous charge of being unjust or not merciful enough.

    ...

    God has the right to do whatever he wishes with his creation just as a potter has the right to do whatever he wishes with a lump of clay; therefore, one cannot accuse God of being cruel or unjust for creating the reprobates for the above purpose. God is the sole moral authority, and the Bible calls him just and good; therefore, whatever he says and does is just and good by definition. It follows that his work of reprobation is just and good by definition, and no one can accuse God of unrighteousness – there is no standard of right and wrong outside of God by which to accuse God of wrongdoing. God is his own moral standard, and since he calls himself righteous, he must therefore be righteous.

    Instead of inciting us to question God's justice, the doctrine of reprobation further enlightens us about God's great love for his chosen ones. Since God controls even the reprobates to serve his own ends (Proverbs 16:4), and he "causes all things to work together" (Romans 8:28; NASB) for the good of the elect, it follows that he manipulates the lives of the reprobates in ways that promote the good of his chosen ones. And Scripture teaches that this is what he has been doing. Thus even the damnation of the non-Christians is for the benefit and edification of Christians, for such is God's love toward his chosen ones."

    - Vincent Cheung, Systematic Theology
     
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  8. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Although not stated, I expect this comment was to challenge the idea that the correct translation is "had done." The fact that "prasso" is plural has no bearing as "born" is plural, so the plural simply indicates neither one born had done anything wrong.
     
  9. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Copy and pasting false doctrine does not move the needle.

    1) God does not predestine whatsoever comes to pass. Jesus himself said things happen by chance.
    2) God either causes or allows whatsoever comes to pass, thus God is not the author of sin.
    3) Since God does not compel our sin, He is just to punish us for our sin.
     
  10. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

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    1) No, Jesus did not say any such thing.
    2) You are not relieved of the difficulty by denying that God is sovereign over His creation. You are saying that God could stop sin but He refuses to do so. You are worshipping a god of your vain imagination. Your will is not stronger than God's will, no matter how much you want it to be so.
    3) God is just to punish the sins of the reprobates regardless of whether one believes that God is sovereign or not. He has already justified His elect in His Son, Christ Jesus.
     
  11. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    We disagree.
     
  12. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Note the non-stop falsehoods proclaimed by Calvinists, such as Jesus did not say things happen by chance.
    God is sovereign over his Creation. I use the actual meaning of the word "sovereign." Calvinism rewrites it to make it say "exhaustively controls." Not what the actual word means.
    Then he posts an avalanche of obvious made up fictions, none of which are true.
    If God compelled a person to sin, God would not be just to punish the person for that activity.
     
  13. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

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    You, a mere creature, have no jurisdiction to judge what is right for God to do. God can do what He wants, regardless of whether we think it is good or evil. There is no authority over God. When God does something, then it is right by definition. Or else God is not God.
     
  14. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    I provided compelling evidence, and you chose to disregard it. Fine

    Pre-born babies are sinners, as they were made sinners from conception, but they do not do anything good or bad in the womb. That is what God's word says.
     
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  15. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Good Grief, I am citing scripture and you are claiming you can ignore scripture, by making up false charges against me. Disgusting. God is just, therefore He does not treat people unjustly.
    God justifies the unjust, not the other way around.
     
  16. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

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    You are the one claiming that God is unjust to exercise His sovereignty over His creation. Who are you, a mere creature, to claim that you can judge your Creator?
     
  17. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Yet another falsehood from the fount of falsehood. Is God unjust? Nope
    Does God punish disobedience, doing activities God does not want? Yes
    Does God punish compelled obedience, doing exacting what God wants? Nope.

    You, Sir, have created your own pathetic god, and you do not worship the God of the Bible.
     
  18. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

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    Romans 9:19-24 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: and that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
     
  19. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Why are you dishonoring God?
    God's word says God punishes disobedience, it does not say God punishes compelled obedience. Your view is not a baptist view, but something from the pit.
     
  20. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

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    Couldn't care less if I hold a "Baptist" view according to your definition. I hold a Biblical view.
     
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