1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Baptist Purgatory

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by Bartimaeus, Mar 11, 2005.

  1. Lacy Evans

    Lacy Evans New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2003
    Messages:
    2,364
    Likes Received:
    0
    Deaf Post Trib,

    You are a hard man to figure, brother. I am amazed that you always show up when millenial exclusion is discussed. I pray you keep studying and that God blesses your studies.

    Let me ask you a question. The term "Post-Trib" usually refers to ones position on the rapture. Pre,mid, and Post. In other words, your name implies that you are pre-millenial and holding to a post trib rapture.

    However you seem by your statements to believe that there is no millenial kingdom. So are you amillenial? post-millenial? preterist? or what? I ask because I never have met an amillenialist or post-millenialist who believe in a literal pre-millenial rapture (post-trib or otherwise).

    Of course you won't believe in millenial exclusion if you are nor a pre-millenialist.

    But why go after the doctrine Millenial exclusion. Most of us here are Pre-mils debating timing and events associated with the rapture and Christ's second coming. You (as far as I can tell) don't even believe in a literal kingdom (ie Christ's 1000 year earthly reign.) Can you please clarify?

    lacy
     
  2. Bartimaeus

    Bartimaeus New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2002
    Messages:
    909
    Likes Received:
    0
    Bro Newman,
    Please answer these questions:
    1) When Paul writes, "Know ye not that ye are the temple of God"... Would you please give me an exact definition of "temple"?
    2) Can you give me any other verse in the Bible that says that the Spirit of God will dwell in our heavenly bodies that will be present at the JSOC?
    Thanks ------Bart
     
  3. Lacy Evans

    Lacy Evans New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2003
    Messages:
    2,364
    Likes Received:
    0
    I am not Bro Newman, but if I may . . .

    1) This body that we dwell in now is the Temple, or dwelling place, of God. That much is simple. The temple is where god dwells on earth.

    Defiling the temple according to the context (see v3,9,12-15, etc. is not showing forth works/fruitfulness and not buliding upon the foundation. Defiling the temple is Using god's holy temple (our bodies) for carnal purposes. Hence the real warning.

    2) Notice that the scripture in question says nothing of which "body" will be destroyed. it simply says, "HIM will God destroy". (Which kind of puts a cramp on the odd notion that our works can burn up but we will be just fine.) I can give you a verse that says all the "hims" (and "hers") will be present.

     
  4. Bartimaeus

    Bartimaeus New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2002
    Messages:
    909
    Likes Received:
    0
    So....Bro Lacy, Which body will be "destroyed" our earthly body or heavenly, celestial body?
    Secondly, since you state our earthly body is the dwelling place of the Spirit of God, (Contextually speaking, 1 Cor 3:16-17) will our earthly body be present at the JSOC?
    AND......you did not answer my question: please give me one other verse in the Bible that says our heavenly body will be the dwelling place of the Spirit of God?
    Thanks -------Bart
     
  5. Lacy Evans

    Lacy Evans New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2003
    Messages:
    2,364
    Likes Received:
    0
    We will have resurrected bodies at the JSOC, but we will still be "us". It will be "you" and "I" who "receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad."

    Can you show me a verse that says our resurected bodies are not subject to chastening? Is that your assumption? It sounds good, but let's have a verse.

    You tell me, what reward will the man in his resurrected body recieve at the JSOC for the "bad deeds" done in the body? This is twice I have proposed this question on this thread.

    In Christ's Love, Lacy
     
  6. Lacy Evans

    Lacy Evans New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2003
    Messages:
    2,364
    Likes Received:
    0
    Dear Bart,

    It is so hard to convey emotion in these typed responses. I reread some of my last few posts and thought to myself, "This could be taken as overly sarcastic, haughty, or smart alek."

    Forgive me if it came out that way. (I hope it didn't.) I certainly wasn't trying for that when I wrote it.

    But you have been most gracious and Godly in your questions and responses, as has most everyone.

    God bless, Lacy
     
  7. Bartimaeus

    Bartimaeus New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2002
    Messages:
    909
    Likes Received:
    0
    Bro Lacy,
    First of all I respect and thank you for your last post. I was not offended by any of your posts and I appreciate your responses. I will not be able to get to the truth of this topic if you do not have continued patience with me though. I am still trying to sort this out.
    Now...I am not understanding your previous post. Although you state we will be in our heavenly bodies you have not cleared up the difference between:
    1) 1Cor 3:17 "destroy the body"
    2) "recieve the things done in his body"
    I am not trying to play word games, it just does not seem to rectify.
    Will our heavenly bodies be "destroyed", or is this just a term that you take as meaning to "recieve some sort of punishment, chastisement, or purging". Please advise.
    Thanks -----Bart
     
  8. James_Newman

    James_Newman New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2004
    Messages:
    5,013
    Likes Received:
    0
    I think what Lacy is trying to point out is that it doesn't say anything about destroying the body. It says that if any man defile the temple, him shall God destroy. Jesus tells us that the destruction of the body is nothing to fear, but rather we should fear God who can destroy the body and the soul.
     
  9. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2000
    Messages:
    37,982
    Likes Received:
    137
    Lacy said:
    I haven't read the entire thread. But here is the logic of this statement.
    Show me in the NT where purgatory could not be taught?
    Show me in the NT where the Assumption of Mary could not be taught?
    Show me in the NT where "indulgences" could not be taught?

    You can teach any extra-biblical doctrine from the Bible. You can insert anything you want into the Bible. You can make the Bible say anything you want it to say. But that does not make it a Biblical doctrine. You are simply using the same logic that a Catholic uses. It isn't in the Bible to begin with. You have inserted a doctrine that isn't in the Bible, and are asking for refutation against something that is not there.
    DHK
     
  10. James_Newman

    James_Newman New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2004
    Messages:
    5,013
    Likes Received:
    0
    DHK, we are making a claim that the warnings that are often misapplied to Jews and False Professors are actually literal warnings to Christians of chastisement at the JSOC. The standard rebuttal is 'Christians can't/won't be punished once they are dead.' We're not asking for much, just a scripture that teaches this moratorium of post-mortem chastisement. If you say 'absent with the body is present with the Lord' (which is not what the verse says) I would reply 'of course you will be present with the Lord at the JSOC when he says Depart from me'. There is no argument against chastisement for believers after death. We see plenty of warnings in the bible of punishment after death, why do they only apply to everyone else?
     
  11. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2000
    Messages:
    37,982
    Likes Received:
    137
    Will you just say (as a Catholic does): "Well tha is your interpretation!" Or will you take the reading in Hebrews 12 in its natural sense and apply as it ought to be applied--a Father chastening his son that takes place on this earth, not after death. To assume that it will take place after death is a great leap of faith totally unwarranted in Scripture. It is not rightly dividing the Word of Truth.

    Hebrews 12:11 Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.
    --There is nothing in this passage that even remotely suggests that chastening will continue after death.
    DHK
     
  12. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2000
    Messages:
    37,982
    Likes Received:
    137
    Your argument: "absent from the body is to be present with the Lord," and the denial of the orthodox interpretation of that verse, is the same interpretation of the SDA's. WHY?
    DHK
     
  13. Bartimaeus

    Bartimaeus New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2002
    Messages:
    909
    Likes Received:
    0
    Bro Newman,
    "If any man defile the temple"..... Present tense.
    "him shall God destroy"............ Future tense.

    Defiling the temple is defiling the present earthly body. That Body will be destroyed by God by death for that defilement. This verse speaks of a determinate act of God for the consequences of the defilement. Because the verse specifically refers to the present earthly body it is a real jump to automatically impute glorified (without thinking I have been stating "heavenly") body there when it is not refered to. The future tense of the verse denotes only the earthly body.
    Thanks -----Bart
     
  14. Bartimaeus

    Bartimaeus New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2002
    Messages:
    909
    Likes Received:
    0
    I will not be posting any more due to a trip for work starting this morning. I must go to Indianapolis and on to Chicago for a two - three day job and then back home again on Thurs, Fri. God bless you all and thanks again for working with me.
    ------Bart
     
  15. av1611jim

    av1611jim New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 22, 2002
    Messages:
    3,511
    Likes Received:
    0
    DHK;
    I disagree with your assumption that verse 11 of Heb. 12 is for this present time as you apply it. In the context, Paul is speaking of being chastised by our earthly fathers. He then goes on to say "Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous..." meaning that the time in which the chastening is happening is not joyous, but the fruit of that chastening IS joyous. They, (our earthly fathers) did it according to their pleasure, but God does it for OUR good. There is NOTHING in the verse to suggest that God limits chastening to this life only. If that were true then God is MOST unjust, for He punishes the ungodly for eternity after they are dead. Why would you say God does not correct His children also in the next? There is NOTHING in Scripture when it talks of correcting the rebellious and disobedient children of God to lend one to understand it to be for this life ONLY. No. In fact, what you will find is abundant warnings to believers of God's displeasure with the disobedient.
    Why is it that folks rebel at such a thought. One would think they are bent on disobedience. What is the problem? Just do right and you will hear, "Well DONE thou good and FAITHFUL servant."
    But rebel and besmear the name of Christ, who bought you with His blood, and you can count on facing a very unhappy Father!
    What is sooo hard to understand? It is the carnal mind which rebels at the thought. The carnal mind ALWAYS wants his cake and eat it too. But God is not as we are. God is just. As such, if you have been bought by the Blood of Christ you can be guaranteed that you are held acountable for what you DO with it. It is NOT a gift to be taken lightly, my brother. I am not saying you specifically are taking it lightly, but apparently modern Christendom HAS. Else why would there be such licentiousness in the church of the Living God? They don't believe God will hold them accountable.

    I apologize brother. This is one of those things which gets my fire up. I find it incomprehensible that Christians would name the name of Christ and yet take our walk here so lightly.

    "Ye are bought with a price and ye are NOT your own." "Of how much sorer punishment shall they be thought worthy who have trampled the Blood of Christ?" (paraphrased off the top of my puny head)

    The entire book of Hebrews is about the magnificance of Christ and the obligation we as believers have to obey Him. And the joy awaiting those who do. Heaven will certainly be blissful, but THE KINGDOM! Oh! THAT will be special. When we see all the nations bow to Him for a thousand years, and we see peace REIGN here! Glory!
    I WANT to hear, "Well DONE thou good and FAITHFUL servant." Don't you? What are you doing about it? Faithfulness is NOT automatic you know. It must be practiced faithfully. Hint, hint, hint.

    In HIS service;
    Jim
     
  16. NaasPreacher (C4K)

    NaasPreacher (C4K) Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2003
    Messages:
    26,806
    Likes Received:
    80
    Fear tactics do not affect my walk with the Lord, my love for Him does.

    Let me see if I have this teaching right

    1) At the bema seat our works are tried
    2) If our bad works outweigh our good works we have to go burn in hell a thousand years to teach us a lesson
    3) Then, and only then, are we permitted to enter Christ's presence

    Is that pretty close?

    The interpretation of Hebrews 10 appears to be the centre of the discussion here. Those who trample under foot the blood of Christ are, IMHO, those who have been offered salvation, perhaps even made some type of profession, but were never truly saved.
     
  17. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2000
    Messages:
    37,982
    Likes Received:
    137
    Context is everything:
    Hebrews 12:1-11 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,
    --We are in a race. The race that we run is on this earth, not in heaven, not even in the Kingdom. It is now. Paul said before his death. "I have run the race, I have finished my course." The race is now, on this earth.

    2. Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
    --As we run the race on this earth we need to look unto Jesus, and set our eyes on Him. He is or example. He went before us. He is the author and finisher of our faith. Look at what he accomplished for us, as we run this race, and be not discouraged.

    3. For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds.
    --Consider what Christ did on this earth while you are running this race on this earth. Christ endured contradiction of sinners. Consider him, and don't therefore become tired and weak in your minds as you run this race on earth.

    4. Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.
    --This is a reference to the way that Christ died. His death was a bloody death. These Christians suffered. But Paul encourages them as they run this race on earth, that they have not resisted such persecution that they have been martyred, that their blood has been spilt--as Christ's was. They were still running the race. (on earth).

    5. And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:
    --Everything that takes place is on earth. We are still in the race. Don't forget the encouragement of the Father (as you seem to have), nor despise the Father when He speaks to you as His children and chastens you. Don't faint or become weak when you are rebuked. It is for your good. It will help you in the race the race that you are running on this earth. Your Father is trying to encourage you, and sometimes must chasten you, that you might run a better race (on earth).

    6. For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
    --He chastens you because he loves you. If he didn't love you he wouldn't chasten you. Notice that He doesn't chasten the others in the race, just those that are on His team. He disciplines them, for he wants them to finish the race. He cares for them, as a coach cares for his team, but more so: as a Father cares for his children. The race is on the earth.

    7. If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
    Chastening is but discipline. It is the same kind of discipline that a coach would hand out, but more lovingly because this coach is the Father in Heaven. Again Paul emphasizes that if they endure the discipline that God is giving to them they can understand the principle that God does it out of His gracious love for them, for He is their Father. They are in a race, a race on earth, and He wants them to finish the race with reward in hand. It has nothing to do with salvation. They will always be his children. He wants to reward them at the end of the race.

    8. But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.
    --There are some that are illegitimately born and not true sons. They are not true heirs of God, and joint heirs of Christ. They have not been born into God's family. Why then, should God spend his precious time discipining them. He doesn't. He especially loves his own. He disciplines his own, while they run this race on earth, that they might have reward in Heaven.

    9. Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?
    --Now comes the comparison to fathers of the flesh, our own earthly fathers. My father disciplined me when I was young. He corrected me when I did wrong. I would never think of lifting my hand up against my father. There was a respect there--a reverence so to speak--that Paul is referring to here. How much more is there for our Father in Heaven--while we are running the race on earth, and submitting to his discipline. Let us not chafe against the discipline, the correction that he gives us on this earth.

    10 For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.
    --Our parents only chastened us for a few days in comparison to the Lord, who will chasten us for all of our spiritual life on earth. I was saved when I was 20, about the same age I left home. But in comparison to the time that I may possibly live to, that is but a few days that I was chastened. The Lord will chasten us (on this earth) while we run this race (on this earth) so that we might become more holy, conformed into the very image of Christ--day unto day.

    11. Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.
    --It is the present time that we are enduring this discipline (while on earth), while running this race. No, correction never seems to be joyous. But afterward it yields fruit--the peaceable fruit of righteousness which again is found on this earth, just as the fruit of the Spirit is found on this earth. The Lord wants to see fruit in our lives, while we run this race on this earth.
    DHK
     
  18. av1611jim

    av1611jim New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 22, 2002
    Messages:
    3,511
    Likes Received:
    0
    Fear tactics?
    Is it not fear of hell that sends a sinner to the cross?
    Then why would it not be fear of the Living God that would send a believer to repentance before chastisement?
    Roger;
    I understand your point of view. I used to have the exact same viewpoint also. Had it for years. I have been saved for 25 years, and it has been only recently that I came to understand the main problem.
    Calvinists will say OSAO. Arminians will say salvation is conditional. Yet Christians throughout history have held a very different point of view than either of them. A bit of research will prove it.
    When I set aside all emotional appeals to my flesh and looked at what the Scriptures SAY, (not what I had been taught), then it became clear that indeed, God will hold US accountable for our behavior as his children. Every verse where Calvinists say "unbelievers" , "false professors": the Arminians say believers but only IF they endure, etc. They both can't be right.Yes, there are verses addressed to the "tares" and "wolves" in sheeps clothing.
    I still found niether C nor A are right. They are looking at the SAME coin yet at opposite sides of it.
    Once you understand Accountability, the entire Bible becomes the single story it is meant to be. There ARE no more "problem" texts.
    Calvinists explain the "problems" which Arminians point out to them as being "false professors".
    Arminians explain "problems" Calvinists point out to them as something altogether different. Yet both are seeing something in Scripture which is escaping their notice. That Something is the very character of God.

    God gives a free gift in the Blood of his Son.

    Then God expects US to treat it as it ought to be treated.

    Where is the "fear tactic" in that? On the contrary; it is because of that great love wherewith He loved us that we ought to hold that gift in hearts filled with love for Him.

    But if we do not...Then what? Does God say to us on THAT day, "Oh that's alright sonny boy. I love ya anyway. You can enjoy the Kingdom age with my faithful ones in spite of your disbelief and rebellion."?

    ("Lord, I believe, help thou mine unbelief")

    No. God is just. And Holy. And Righteous. Would He be so if he were to let all come, even though some thought of His gift as a light thing?

    No.

    In HIS service;
    Jim
     
  19. av1611jim

    av1611jim New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 22, 2002
    Messages:
    3,511
    Likes Received:
    0
    DHK ;
    You did real good, except vs 4, 6 and 11.
    vs 4 is not JUST a reference to Christ but is also a reminder that NONE of us have resisted sin like He did. Therefore we ought to.

    vs 6, NO! God is not just a "coach" and God's chastisement is so much more than a "coach's" discipline. I find that awfully trite. What "coach" do you know of that KILLS his players for disobedience? You know of whom I am speaking. I need not give the reference.

    Vs 11, you bolded "present" as if to imply it is this present time on earth but it is not that at all. It is the present time of chastisement. IOW, whether here or later, no chastisement is pleasent DURING the chastisement.

    Other than that you did good but you stopped too soon in the chapter.
    :D Read on my friend!

    Heb 12:25
    See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:

    In HIS service;
    Jim
     
  20. NaasPreacher (C4K)

    NaasPreacher (C4K) Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2003
    Messages:
    26,806
    Likes Received:
    80
    It is obvious that this is an issue where we are going to see the scriptures in our own light. We can throw verses back and forth all day and night, but we are not going to come to an agreement on their interpretation.

    [humour]If any of you guys get millenially excluded, I'll see you when you get to heaven[/humour]

    Good spirited debate, but I can't see us reaching agreement so am going to step aside and watch ;) .
     
Loading...