On the banks of the river

Dear Friends, I am certainly enjoying this thread. I expect to be away for a few days. Lord willing, I will be attending the Association of Statisicians of American Religious Bodies in Kansas City, MO, on Oct. 30 & 31. Being poor and scared, I will have to drive rather than fly, so it will be a 3 1/2 day excursion. I am looking forward to learning a great deal from this meeting, but I will miss being able to follow our discussions here on the Baptist Board.

Bro. Jeff, I have in the past thought about trying to get up a web site/page (I'm not even sure about proper terminology), especially to get out the information about the various Baptist groups in the United States. I do have a definite interest in this, but don't know how to set up, add to, or finance such an enterprise. Any tips would be appreciated. (The other situation has been a cause of much soul-searching for me over the past two or three years. Our churches and I seem to move further and further apart each passing year. If I ever settle, I'll let you know.) Also, I don't remember if I mentioned that I think you made a good point on the 9 or so rites observed by some Baptists in the past. We really continue many of them under a different names and never think of them as rites or ordinances (like dinner on the ground). This has reminded me that there is a piece in the most recent Viewpoints : Georgia Baptist History about the continuance of some of these rites among the separatist or non-affiliated Baptists of north Georgia. I will try to get some excerpts on here when possible.

 

Bro. Robert

Don't worry about expense for a web page. There is lots of free web space out there, and I have plenty arranged already, so that isn't an issue. If you have somethign you want to put online, send me a plain text file, or Word or Word Perfect for that matter, and I can get it up.

Have fun with the statisticians. I wish I was going, but alas, alack....

As for being afraid, I understand, but I am not. I think you know I live a mile from the Pentagon. That plane that hit it on 9/11 went right over the house, I heard the explosion, saw the smoke, and panic of everyone trying to get away. My wife works for the army, but not in the Pentagon any longer, and she paniced. So, for her sake I couldn't, and haven't yet. Everybody tells me it will catch up with me one of these days, but so far I haven't been afraid. Now, why there were 12 police cars at the post office this morning is another matter. Everyone seems to be in a tiz over anthrax, and I have gotten to be the neighborhood opener of suspicious mail.

Have a good trip and dont worry. It won't help a thing.

Jeff

 

How does one go about tracing their history?
You go by your family tree and trace your lineage from one generation to the next and so on and on and on... ect. This is for secular history but the way I understand it and correct me if I'm wrong(I want to know the truth) even if I'm in error. The way you trace our belief is by sound doctrine.

I want to be standing on the banks of the river Jordan as Jesus was baptised looking forward looking back at his teachings and the doctrine that the early church embraced.

He set up a visible church and not part but the whole is still in the world today and will be here when he comes again. The body of believers that worship on that foundational rock Christ Jesus the walls and the roof that make up that assembly is none other than sound doctrine.

The scriptures say Wisdom hath builded her house and it is a house where all Gods children can hear the truths of God. Just because they don't believe them that doesn't make them not the truth. We are also warned in scripture there is another gospel and there is another jesus.

It also states there will come a time when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; and they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned into fables.

What I said as I've heard preachers many times in the pulpit say I'll take a big helping of that myself. If the trumpet make an uncertain sound who shall prepare himself to battle. If that trumpet is unsound doctrine, then where do we stand?... Like the Apostle Paul said Let me stir up your pure minds! Just my thoughts that have been weighing heavy on my mind this evening!...

I Pray this was of the Lord and not of me and the Lord will bring much fruit... Good Night Brethren... Brother Glen

 

Just a quick chime in on the succession idea. I tend to agree with Bro. Clint, in that I don't think any particular denomination can chain link itself to one of the churches established by the apostles. (Perhaps one of the Eastern Orthodox types, might, but that isn't really the point of this thread). Perhaps it is because my education is as a historian, and I just don't see the historical documentation for it. However, I do see some of the Baptists as being fairly close to what I believe was apostolic practice and faith. So, I am not a "Landmarker" but many Primitive Baptists are.

S. F. Paul, who wrote a series of books on the Strict and Particular Baptists in England, noted that the first Particular Baptists were a disaffected Anglican priest joined by a Presbyterian, and they baptized each other. Unfortunately Mr. Paul did not footnote his work, and I don't know from whence his information came.

As for the charasmatic movement afoot in the land, it hasn't bothered us (Primitive Baptists) in the least. But it has gotten close -- a couple of the Old Regular/Mountain Union type churches have had it, and they were expelled from their respective fellowships.

As for modern hymns, commonly called Contemporary Christian Music, there is extensive discussion of this on the music ministry folder. I have also posted extensively there, so you can probably gather a good idea of Primitive Baptist singing services there.

More later.
Jeff

 

Brother Jeff, Clint, Robert and those other brethren who have joined our little band.

Jeff your responds on tithing was right on the mark and I have been doing this for years but I always felt guilty that I haven't been able to give money. How many time have I gone to the store and see someone with a sign that needed help. I help when I see someone in need. I'm in between jobs and I can't tell you how many times people have given us food and helped in other ways.

When I read your comment I thought of how many times a sister or brother would try to give something to a minister and he would refuse, knowing their circumstances. They didn't realize they offended a brother or sister who in my opinion gave all their living.

A dear sister in my church tells me many stories of different ways churches have supported the minister. Took him home to dinner, or gave him a chicken or filled his car with gas or many other kindneses. It doesn't have to be money.

When I was a kid I remember the church buying our minister bags of groceries and had a special meeting in the kitchen and gave them to his family.

Why do people refuse what God has layed on someone elses heart to give is beyond me. Maybe you can give me an answer and how did the early baptist churches tithe in America?
These were poor people and how did they support their ministers?

I'm reminded of the words of Jesus when he said he was thirsty, hungry, naked, and in prison and they took him in. Lord when did we see thee in this condition? In as much as ye done it to the least of these my brethren, ye done it unto me.

I can tell you how many times I've been in prison and I'm not refering to the natural kind. There are greater prisons in this life than the big house and how many people are in prisons now because of the state of our country. How many are in prisons because they don't know the peace of Jesus that passeth all understanding.

Like you said in your tithing post you had to vent a little and going to some of these post, I too have to vent a little because there is so much unsound doctrine being presented as truth. I hope you brethren will cast a mantle of charity over me and realize it was for a good cause... Just my thoughts... Brother Glen

[ October 30, 2001: Message edited by: tyndale1946 ]

 

Hi folks

Another day is nearly past and gone, and I am still typing with one hand. I am supposed to go to rehabilitation tomorrow to try to get back to work. The age of 43 is entirely too early to be retired. But they won't take me, I fear, cause the doc says I am not ready yet.

Bro. Glen, I often feel like saying what you said above about sound doctrine. In fact there are lots of things that ought to be said, but it would just start a fight, and there ain't much fight in me anymore. It puts me in mind of some of the things we say here, any maybe in your neighborhood too, such as they can't see the forest for the trees. That forest is the incomprehensible electing love of Jesus Christ. That love was sufficient for me, I hope. That hope of eternal life which was begat in my soul at a time when I was very small. That indellible memory of Jesus Christ and Him crucified, for me, I trust. When loses sight of that one is just plain lost, and I know you know what I mean when I say not in the eternal sense. So many here are lost in that way, or so it would appear. They don't see the forest for the trees. That forest is, I believe, Jesus Christ and Him Crucified. I am not saying that other discussions aren't important, but they pale in comparison to the love of God. I will get out of the stand now.

Glad you agreed with the tithing thing.

Bro. Clint, I appreciate your sermon. I can empahtize with the emotions, which were stirred in your soul when it was written. I don't know what you believe on a lot of things, but that was the testimony of one who sees the forest. Maybe not the same way Bro. Glen, Robert and I do, but I do believe you see the forest.

Now, maybe we cam reason together to determine the marks of an apostolic church. Elder Sylvester Hassell wrote a good summation in the 1880s, which might be a good place to start. http://www.primitivebaptist.org/writers/hassell/history/chapter09.asp

In sum, these marks according to Hassell are:

1. Regenerated membership
2. Proper Baptism
3. Communion at the Lord's Table
4. Strict Church Discipline
5. Independent Church Government
6. Religious Liberty
7. Christian Deportment
8. Equality of members.
9. A God Called Ministry
10. Ministerial support
11. Biblical missions
12. Church recognition in the World

Of course these broad terms could mean lots of things to different folks. What they mean to Primitive Baptists is eloquently explained by Elder Hassell in the link given.

BTW, if you are curious, here is the posting on tithing that got my dander up.

http://www.baptistboard.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=3&t=000175&p=3

Enough for now.

Warm regards
Jeff

[ October 30, 2001: Message edited by: Jeff Weaver ]

 

Ok brethren, and especially Brother Clint where do we go from here? We are standing on the river Jordan looking forward looking back at the teachings and doctrines of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

The way you illustrated it was very moving and those who witnessed that very day and were convicted in their heart could only go one place, into the Jordan river and follow their Lord and Savior.

We have gone back to our roots and have stood on the banks of the river. Into the Jordan river is where all true believers go. Do we need to be rebaptized again? John said I indeed baptise you with water but there cometh one after me who shoe latchets I'm not worthy to unloose he shall baptise you with the Holy Ghost and with Fire.

We now stand in the river as Jesus stood in that river 2,000 years ago. We have come up out of the water of Gods Love. We are Baptist and not by name only but by Doctrine and Practice. The river as one of the writers of old stated flows from the throne of God. A river that bring comfort to our feet as we daily follow our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. A river that because of his sacrifice we are baptised into, not only his death, burial and resurrection but our old man is buried and we are raised to a new life in Christ. A river that now the depth of his love has become so deep we cannot pass over as we continue tasting the benefits of all the Godhead in our daily walk with him and those who follow him as we do... From New Birth... To Grave... To Glory!

God Bless You All... Brother Glen

 

Dear Bro. Clint

I understand what you are saying on the infant baptism issue. As I understand it there are at least three theories about how the practice originated. The one cited by Elder Hassell, the second one you cited above, and a third which perhaps might be the most reasonable (perhaps not). I hope I am getting the gist of the story straight. The third alternative was that one of the late Roman emporers had an infant son who was dying. Having read that baptism was necessary for the remission of sins, insisted that the Pope baptise his critically ill infant son, and the Pope did so. This would have been mid-4th century, if I understand correctly.

Now for the underlying question, is it proper? Obviously I don't think so, or otherwise I wouldn't be a Primitive Baptist. But in truth I think it is sufficiently ambiguous in scrpiture that people of good faith can disagree about it, and have for centuries. And yes, I realize that some on this board will take umbrage that I would even suggest such an ambiguity. But I try to keep some where near the surface of my memory, we know in part, see in part, and look through a glass darkly.

I don't believe there is a perfect apostolic church on the face of this earth. I don't believe anyone of good faith has a complete absense of truth nor do I believe that anyone has it 100% correct either, including Primitive Baptists.

We have been accused, perhaps correctly, of being an excessively logical and consistent faith. We have been accussed of not being able to see the paradoxes in scripture. Perhaps there are paradoxes there--but I don't see that there are any. The problem is, IMO, rightly dividing the word of truth -- coming to an understanding of what constitutes sound doctrine. Understanding of that truth comes by faith, by study, by experience, and every one is different in those things. But in the wind up, it won't make any difference, we will know as we are known.

I have rambled enough.

Warm regards
Jeff

 

Brother Jeff would you tell me what is a Landmark Baptist... Never heard of one out here... Brother Glen

 

Bro. Clint

You have me on the next to last post. I confess to knowing nothing of the WMU. We have no church auxillaries in our tradition. None, nada. So, will have to read up on it a bit to be able to discuss it intelligently.

I understand the underlying point, however, to be the role of women in the church. If this indeed the point, I think you illustrated it well from scripture amd example.

I hope some of the female lurkers (Kathy) might decloak and comment.

As for coming up, please do. I give a mean 50 cent tour of Washington, D.C. Saturdays are probably the best days to go booking. Some of them hold limited hours, so give a note or a ring on the phone, first so I can make an appointment. I am in the phone book.

Jeff

[ October 31, 2001: Message edited by: Jeff Weaver ]

 

Bro. Clint

Have a good time tonight. I don't do Halloween at all, my dad had a sister murdered on Halloween in 1970, so it has been verboten since. The only place we went when were kids was to my grandparents house, and they lived next door, so it was never a big thing. My whole family was never much on any holiday for that matter.

Kathy mentioned in another posting that she had been lurking here abouts, so hopefully she will jump in. I am curious about her take on things. It will be good cause my brain is empty now. I will have to do some reading, praying, pondering and such to fill it up again.

 

Brethren I too need a little rest but I pray the things I said didn't come on to strong.

The family is going out tonight to my daughters church for a celebration they call the fall festival. We are taking my granddaughter Bethany 4 months old in a winnie the pooh outfit her other grandmother made.

I really enjoyed the illustration of the woman at the well and the different applications Brother Clint made of the women in the church.

I know Brother Jeff with echo what I feel in my heart of the many fathers and mothers in the dear old church that have passed our way and the many lessons they left for us to follow. Those God fearing men and women who sought out the straight path and followed the old landmarks, their forefathers followed.

Enjoying the many new web sites and articles as the come in. So much grist for the mill and I am grinding away as time permits. If I find any I think would be of interest I will send them your way... God Bless You All...
Brother Glen

 

Bro. Glen

Sorry, I forgot to answer your question about Landmarkers, above. As I understand it, these folks believe that you can make an uninterrupted chain of churches back to the time of the apostles. This is the statement on one of their web sites.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Only Scriptural Baptist churches can make a legitimate claim to an unbroken succession back to the time of Christ and the apostles. Christ only built one kind of church and that church is described in detail in the New Testament. The only churches meeting the requirements of that description today are true Baptist churches. Baptist churches have existed in every age since their founding by Christ, though they have not always been known by that name. We do not deny that there are those in other so-called “churches” that have been born again by the grace of God. We do deny, however, that these man-made organizations are true churches of our Lord Jesus Christ.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Here is the URL with additional information: http://users.aol.com/libcfl/libc.htm

I don't know the fellow who does this web site, perhaps others do. But, I am not so narrow in my definition of what constitutes a true church and prefer Hassell's notions much better, and I don't completely agree with Hassell either, but that is another discussion entirely.

I hope it helps a bit.

Jeff