Women, teaching, authority

Can you point to just one female pastor in the New Testament.

There were other apostles beyond the twelve. Paul greets Junia, a Roman woman converted before Paul, praising her as "outstanding among the apostles," Romans 16:7. "Greet Andronicus and Junia, my relatives who have been in prison with me. They are outstanding among the apostles, and they were in Christ before I was."

Then there's Priscilla. Priscilla, together with her husband Aquila, accompanied Paul on an evangelizing trip to Ephesus. Paul continued on and left them behind to evangelize. At Ephesus, Priscilla (listed before her husband Aquila) taught the learned minister Apollos more accurately in the faith, Acts 18:18-26. Some translations add that this happened in their house but the Greek for Acts 18:26 only tells us that they took Apollos unto themselves and doesn't mention a house. The word used for explained or expounded is the same word used when Peter publicly explained the truth in Acts 11:47. Priscilla and Aquila also established a church in Rome, Romans 16:3-5, and risked their lives for Paul.

Both Euodia and Syntyche evangelized publicly with Paul; they "contended at my side in the cause of the gospel". Both women zealously "contended", and the Greek word that Paul used conjures up verbal team wrestling! The word means "to wrestle in company with". They publicly wrestled with words right beside Paul as they all three publicly defended the faith! Their names are "in the book of life" together with a male co-worker named Clement, Phil 4:2-3

In Romans 16:1-2, Phoebe, a woman, was a "diakonon" of the church in Cenchrea. The same Greek word translated "servant" here, is translated "minister" in twenty-two other scriptures such as in Col 1:25 "Of this church I was made a minister according to the stewardship from God bestowed on me for your benefit, that I might fully carry out the preaching of the word of God..."

Phoebe is believed to have delivered the book of Romans after traveling some 800 miles from Cenchrea near Corinth to Rome. Paul writes "I commend (or introduce) to you, our sister Phoebe," Then he introduces her as a minister of the church in Cenchrea and urges the church at Rome to help her with the matter that brings her to Rome, for "she has been a great help to many people, including me." The word translated merely "great help" or "helper" is a word meaning "a woman set over others, a patroness,"!She was not a servant in the way we think of a servant, but a wealthy woman with money to use to travel and to protect and help others. She served as a minister.

Paul greets Nympha among other church leaders and greets her house church. She is the only leader mentioned by name in her town. Col. 4:1513. Lydia had a church meeting in her home, Acts 16:14, 15 and 40. Also Chloe, whose converts are indicated as belonging to Chloe as a group or church in 1 Cor 1:11 "For I have been informed concerning you, my brethren, by Chloe's people, that there are quarrels among you."

[ November 13, 2002, 07:21 PM: Message edited by: Johnv ]

 

Are there female pastors? Yes there are. Does that mean that God called them? No it does not.

The very idea that someone thinks this is dangerous. There is nothing in the Bible that says men and women have different spiritual gifts.

 

Nor does everyone share yours. There are many here on this board that would agree with me on this issue, as there are many who would agree with you.

How dare you refer to those who do not interpret scripture as you do on this issue as having a "low view" of Scripture. I'm sure God is quite happy with your treatment of fellow Christians.

 

Johnv, dangerous, dangerous, the fact that I read and acknowledge what Scripture clearly says is dangerous. If being obediant to God's word makes me dangerous, then I will be dangerous for the rest of my life.

So what is someone who trys to negate what Scripture says? I guess that would be you.

ITimothy 3,is very clear. How many women are ever referred to as a husband of one wife? You can believe what you want to, you have the right to be wrong.

 

Rom 16:7 - Andronicus and Junia--or, as it might be, "Junias," a contracted form of "Junianus"; in this case, it is a man's name. But if, as is more probable, the word be, as in our version, "Junia," the person meant was no doubt either the wife or the sister of Andronicus. (Jamieson, Faucett, and Brown)

Andronicus and Junias (Andronicou kai Iounian). The first is a Greek name found even in the imperial household. The second name can be either masculine or feminine. (Robertson's Word Pictures)

Rom 16:3 - Greet Priscilla and Aquila,.... The former of these, who was a woman, and the wife of the latter, is in some copies called Prisca; and so the Vulgate Latin here reads it, as she is also called in 2Ti_4:19. Her being named before her husband, is without design, for sometimes he is put before her, as in Act_18:2. And it is a rule with the Jews (l), that there is neither first nor last in the Scriptures; that is, strict order is not always observed; it is sometimes inverted, find nothing depends upon it: hence the reasons assigned by some, that she was first converted, or had more zeal than her husband, are uncertain and impertinent. (John Gill)

Phi 4:2 -
Euodia (Euodian). This name means literally "prosperous journey" (eu, hodos). It occurs in the inscriptions.
Syntyche (Suntuche¯n). From suntugchano¯, to meet with and so "pleasant acquaintance" or "good-luck." Occurs in the inscriptions and identified with Lydia by some. Klopper suggests that each of these rival women had church assemblies in their homes, one a Jewish-Christian church, the other a Gentile-Christian church. Vincent doubts the great influence of women in Macedonia held by Lightfoot who also suggests that these two were ladies of rank or perhaps deaconesses of the church in Philippi. Schinz suggests that in such a pure church even slight bickerings would make a real disturbance. "It may have been accidental friction between two energetic Christian women" (Kennedy). (Robertson's Word Pictures)

Rom.16:1 Of this church Phebe was a servant, or, as the word signifies, a minister or deacon; not that she was a teacher of the word, or preacher of the Gospel, for that was not allowed of by the apostle in the church at Corinth, that a woman should teach; see 1Co_14:34; and therefore would never be admitted at Cenchrea. Rather, as some think, she was a deaconess appointed by the church, to take care of the poor sisters of the church; though as they were usually poor, and ancient women; that were put into that service, and this woman, according to the account of her, being neither poor, nor very ancient; it seems rather, that being a rich and generous woman, she served or ministered to the church by relieving the poor; not out of the church's stock, as deaconesses did, but out of her own substance; and received the ministers of the Gospel, and all strangers, into her house, which was open to all Christians; and so was exceeding serviceable to that church, and to all the saints that came thither: though it is certain that among the ancient Christians there were women servants who were called ministers. (John Gill)

And Nymphas; which some, unskilful in the Greek language, have took for a woman; whereas it is the name of a man, as the following words show; and is a contraction of Nymphios, or Nymphidios, or Nymphodoros: (John Gill)

Here are most of the women that you have listed John. Some of them, as you can see, we are not even sure are women, let alone "pastors." No one denied that these people had a role in serving the Lord. Every one of us, male and female, have our different areas of service. But the Bible is specific on who may be a pastor. There are no female pastors in the Bible.
DHK

 

Interesting post though Johnv. You had me running to the Bible! Rob

 

Johnv, there is no conclusive proof that Junia was a woman. If I remember from my previous study, the name only appears 3 times in available Greek writing.

The other examples you gave were exactly what women should be doing. They helped Paul in the ministry of the gospel. Why does that mean they were pastors? Others held teaching roles. Why does that mean they taught men in the church?

Paul must have been crazy to write one thing and then practice something totally different. I suppose he must have had a very low view of Scripture also.

 

I made the statement in a post a while back in which I said "the most hotly debated items in the New Testament concern things Paul wrote." Some scholar (I don't remember who) quickly informed me that I just did not understand the scripture he wrote. Well, I stick by my original statement - look at these posts (Paul - Paul - Paul)!

I said all that to say this - I have no plans to sit under a woman pastor, but someone answer me this, please. Why is there NEVER any fuss made over "female missionaries" by the same folks who do not believe women should pastor?

 

Fuss.

 

I just wanted to thank the men who are standing against women becoming pastors. Someone has to stand up and preach the truth. It is so sad to me when I see women who are older than me who have no idea how to be a keeper of their home. They are supposed to be helping me in my role as wife and mother. Instead, they are out there "ministering." I have had much trouble finding ANY Titus 2 women. There just are not that many.
I wonder why some of the ladies choose to say they are ministering but refuse to become a Titus two woman. They are blaspheming the Word of God when they disobey those verses. That is what it says.

HCL

 

1 Timothy isn't referring to women as pastors. It's referring to marital faithfulness as a prerequisite for serving in the church.

Your arguement, that those who are against women pastors are adhering to God's word but those who are in favor of women pastors are not adhering to God's word, simply results in an "I'm better than you" arguement.

I reiterate my opinion that forbidding women from being leaders in the church is simply engaging biblical legalism. And yes, I think it's dangerous when we tell people they can't excercise their spiritual gifts as God has called them (as opposed to as men tell them to).

 

I just wanted to thank the men who are standing against women becoming pastors. Someone has to stand up and preach the truth.

I assert that forbiding women from serving as church leaders is by no means biblical truth.

 

Not at all. It is simply arguing that scripture says what it says and says it for a reason that we are not worthy to judge.... Rather than saying "scripture says what it says unless I decide it says something different" like you seem to be doing.

Legalism involves adding to the command of scripture. To deny that women should not fill certain roles requires one only to read the Bible, not add to it.

It is far more dangerous to attribute an act to God which is in direct contradiction to His revealed will in scripture.

[ November 14, 2002, 12:53 PM: Message edited by: Scott J ]

 

... and your assertion is incorrect unless words do not mean what they mean.

 

A couple of thoughts from a reasonably well-educated woman.

We should not lead men in church and we should not be pastors/preachers.

There are a number of reasons for this -- and yes, I know there are exceptions, but I'll rush in where angels fear to tread anyway:

1. Women are not as focused as men. We tend to wander. This is a benefit in the home when we have to keep an eye on half a dozen things at once and maintain productivity as well, but it is not handy in the pulpit or in a leadership role where focus is needed. Men are more focused.

2. When one woman comes into a leadership role, in almost any organization, one or both of two things often happen: first, there is a general feeling of 'upside down' regardless of the competance of the woman or how much she is respected and second, other women will often start to take over, and you end up with a woman-run organization. Not good for many organizations.

3. Women tend to be relationship-oriented and men tend to be goal-oriented. Everybody feeling good together and taking care of one another is a wonderful ministry, but it is not the sort of one capable of making the tough decisions that sometimes have to be made.

4. Men's voices are generally easier to listen to than women's voices.

Please keep in mind I am saying this as a retired teacher and a current editor. I think I have also gained the respect of some here as being a reasonably intelligent and logical person who can present well, at least on the keyboard.

And I would never want to be in a position of leadership among men or in a pulpit as a minister.

All that said, I do think that leading a class in an adult Sunday School for a specific series (for instance, in my case, the creation/evolution arguments) is quite acceptable when the woman's area of expertise warrants it -- there is no reason at all to keep her quiet when she has something others can benefit from.

But it is under the authority of the men in the church and not despite them or in spite of them.

Besides, we have enough to do anyway!

[ November 14, 2002, 01:16 PM: Message edited by: Helen ]

 

Scott, thank you for that clarification, that is just about what I thought when I was reading Johnv's post.

Women have many important ministries. They are a corner stone to churches all over the world. Ido not limit them from preaching, God decided that the role of pastor was to be held by men.

Legalism huh? If you want to obey Scripture you get to be called legalistic and dangerous. Well, I am sorry that you feel that way. I pray that one day you will accept the Word of God for what it says instead of what YOU think it should say.

You may FEEL that it is ok to permit women to be pastors, but that is all it is, a feeling. You have yet to show one concrete proof that women are allowed to be pastors.

 

Okay, you did warn us.

Ignoring the fact that this is a stereotype that is probably not as accurate as you think, why would the ability to focus on many things at once be bad for a pastor who is providing leadership and administration for a busy congregation? Second, are you saying that women *can't* concentrate on one thing for half-an-hour when they deliver a sermon?

I haven't noticed, and I've served with women in supervisory roles in the "secular" world for at least a dozen years. I've usually had a female boss (or at least a female boss somewhere up the ladder that I interacted with on a regular basis). Of course it is disoriented to those who don't respect women or dismiss their competence, but it is hardly a timeless truth for all ages.

Again, another stereotype. In both the secular world and religious world I have seen female leadership that was both compassionate and decisive. For the record, I am relationship oriented, but I'm not afraid to make people unhappy if there is a good reason.

If preaching = shouting, then you have something. A man's voice has more bass that helps make the shouted voice more pleasant. But I don't care for preachers who shout all the time. If you shout to accent a point occasionally, it's a good thing. But we have this new invention called a microphone, and preachers don't have to shout anymore. If someone preaches in a regular voice of address, the "pleasant-ness" of a voice is merely a matter of taste, not truth.

And possibly in the pulpit.

Then you're not called to it.

Certainly.

If *anyone* (male or female) does not show respect and submission to other believers in the congregation, they should not be in the pulpit. (Of course some people think authority means being a ruler or calling the shots... Jesus showed us that the way to lead is to be the servant of all. Submit yourselves one to another!)

That's true. But men keep busy too!