What is the Bible?

DHK, surely you must know that one cannot "choose" to believe something when he believes something else. So how can I "refuse to believe"?</font>[/QUOTE]Many who smoke choose to smoke, though they believe smoking is wrong. They believe in their right to smoke, even though they know it is wrong.

Many who deny the truths of the Word of God, do so in spite of the fact that they know they are true. Belief comes from the heart, out of a conviction of the Holy Spirit, as well as a conviction of the mind. Christianity has both of these aspects to it. I do not believe with blind faith, mindlessly, like many of the cults do. My faith is built on an intellectual understanding of the Word of God, plus a guiding and conviction of the Holy Spirit.
DHK

 

Warm Christian greetings!

The views promoted by the likes of Mr Villines, Mr "Post-it" and Mr David Cooke do not, in and of themselves, disturb me because I've heard them all before, and I believe the Lord will deal with these people in His own time, and His own way. (My hope and prayer is that He will deal with them unto repentance rather than unto judgement).

However, what does concern me deeply is the following: Let's just say that young, newly converted Christians start to go into the BB with a view to being built up in their "most holy faith". If they come across the views promoted by these "christians" mentioned just now, what do you think will happen to them? The comments made could seriously undermine their faith, and even put them off altogether. Bearing in mind the warning the Bible gives about not causing "one these little ones that believe in me to stumble" the likes of Mr Villines and his cohorts could well find themselves with blood on their hands. They could find, on the judgement day that Christ condemns them for leading young believers astray.

In the light of this I would appeal to these people to take a moment to reflect on the possible consequences of their actions.

Kind regards

Robert J Hutton

 

Actually I was thinking about this very thing this morning as I read throughthe end of Romans, particularly Romans 16:17-19. I cite that, not to make characterisations abuot Post, or Josh or anyone else here so much as to point out that there are, I think, limits to what ought to be discussed. I don't want to be seen as advocating an anti-intellectual fundamentalist style forum, but I do beleive that biblically we can say that ther are limits to what can and should be discussed. certainly things that might bring others to spiritual ruin fall into that category.

 

Should a Homo be alowed to stay in a church if he doesn't accept Christ and change?

Churches are not just for the saved, they're also for the lost. As far as homosexuality, why single out one sin? Our churches are filled with persons who have not repented of sins like cheating on taxes, breaking the speed limit, putting down false times on timecards, yet they are allowed to remain.

But, if you're going to bar practicing homosexuals from church, then you'll have to bar all people practicing fornication. You'll find that most people who fornicate are heterosexuals, not homosexuals.

Regardless, if you bar every sinner from church, you'll have an empty church.

 

The consequences of our actions? How about that non-Christians will see that you don't have to buy into a narrow set of beliefs about scripture to believe in the good news of Jesus Christ, and the new fullness of life one can live in when they live a life according to the Gospel: loving God, loving their neighbor, and following in the footsteps of our Lord as best we can. Maybe they'll believe that they don't have to throw out out common sense and their education to believe that God is the creator of the universe, whether he made it in six days or not. Maybe they'll believe that they can still accept Christ as their savior even if they're undecided on whether the stories of Jonah and Noah are metaphors or historical fact. Maybe they'll feel comfortable with not having pat answers for every little theological question, and know that, like Paul, we often see through a glass darkly. Maybe they will know that the tent of belief of our Lord is large enough to accomodate conservatives, moderates and EVEN LIBERALS who believe in new life in our risen Lord. Maybe it will be a good thing for them to know that they don't have to drink the kool-aid to be accepted. Just Maybe.

[ August 22, 2002, 12:57 PM: Message edited by: David Cooke, Jr. ]

 

I understand your concern Robert. But darkness is not a safe place to stay as a Christian.

Here is the fallacy of your thoughts. First, to cause someone to stumble would not apply to stating ones beliefs about the Bible as a saved individual. Otherwise every Church in the world is cause those who don't follow it's beliefs to stumble.

Your fear is what caused the Catholic Church to dominate the interpretation before we individuals decided to read it for ourselves and reject the Catholic Church's doctrine. You wouldn't be a Baptist today if that had not happened.

Now that we have our "Religion" established again, you are saying lets not let the members see what scripture says or could be interepreted to say. Your view would take us back at least 1000 years if the Church adopted it.

A well armed Christian with knowledge of what scripture says, can't fall prey to other false religions. Let them hear and develop their own opinion with the guidence of the Holy Spirit. This is what our Faith is based on Robert.

 

Well said Post it.

 

post-it:

The consequences of our actions? How about that non-Christians will see that you don't have to buy into a narrow set of beliefs about scripture to believe in the good news of Jesus Christ, &gt;&gt;

Strange, but that is what I was refering to when I said.....making it sound like some good icecream. Nothing else matters except the icecream. Just leave all the rest out like repenting from being a homosexual, murder, rapist, etc.. There are some very serious sins, such as these, meaning that if you do not change, then you haven't truly accepted Jesus for the guilt of these would make you want to change immediately. Also to the person who said church was ok for sinners: OK for SAVED sinners! God's church is made up of CHRISTIANS. Those who are not, are of the world. Yes, you are right about many that are lost going to church BUT when it is obvious that a person is still committing murder, then that person should be in prision, not in a Christian church. You cannot pick out all the time an individual who is leading a double life, but when you do find out, that person should be asked to repent or leave God's church. Would you say ok to a murderer to stay in your church just because he said he is a Christian? I would think not, but I've been wrong many times in the past and present. The same applies to the others! Yes, I am a sinner, but a saved one and I have repented of ALL major sins(no I wasn't one that I listed), one of which was drinking alcholic drinks. It's been over 20 years now. Read the OT about how God felt about the ones I listed. By His punishment I would believe that they were not welcome while still in that state of a lifestyle. Boy, the icecream sounds good!

God Bless............Alex

 

Alex,
Prosecuting murderers and rapists is what I do for a living. I don't know where you got the idea that I'm for icecream religion and against accountability, but it wasn't from me.

 

Nor from me. A rapist belongs in jail, they have churches in jail that will accept them if they want to be a Christian and stop the raping.

I have only made a case for sinners that are committing non-harmful sins... like, lying to your wife about how thin she looks; lying to your husband about what a great lover and listener he is; , Homosexuality (if you consider that a sin), cheating on taxes, eating too much, lusting after women, being a lawyer or stock broker (well maybe these sometime do harm others more than we think ) (not you David ), not honoring your parents, etc. These are the same type of sins that Paul admitted he still continued to do knowing he shouldn't.

[ August 22, 2002, 04:33 PM: Message edited by: post-it ]

 

Sorry as it wasn't intended for you. It was for my friend, post-it which, as I read his last comments, I agree to the simple sins;however, even they are sin and we should at least try to repent from them. I have many, like these.

I think the reason I was so harsh with him was that I assumed by one of his posts, that he was far too liberal and thus far from what I feel is bibically correct. I still will hold my position about homosexuals that continue with their life style and go to church with ALL knowing this. Kida would give younger persons the wrong idea about salvation and repentance.

I put them on the same level as a rapist......if you don't quit, you are not a Christian and should not be allowed in a church WHICH is supposed to be Christians. Sure, I would give them a fair amount of time after conseling them about being a Christian pertaining to their un-Godly lifestlye but after that..go away until you repent if you were ever a God fearing pair. God created man and woman for a reason and it sure isn't to be Gay! That is straying too far from the topic, so I will end it here but I do expect a few responses to my position.

God Bless............Alex

 

Robert J Hutton,

Sir I am in total agreement with you. I made this comment on a different thread.

We should be very concerned about new christians. And they do post here, and there are some really young christian teens here also.

I really worry about this.

Sherrie

 

Sherrie:

I know your heart is in the right place as a Christian but I would think that most who visit this site are old enough to understand what is going on and thus can make a proper choice as all on here(church members), have good points as per their particular denomination. To "hold back" anything that is scriptural is really not fair to those who are seeking the truth as they may not attend a church or read the bible. The reason this site is so popular, is because of the wide range of beliefs and topics that are sometimes heavely debated. I have learned a great deal here at age 65 and wish that I would have had something like this while a teenager as I am sure it would have made my Christian life that much closer to God. But, we are individuals, with different approaches on what should or should not be posted. So far, the Moderators have done a great job dealing with debates that get too bad and vicious. I think this one is doing fine, but again, that's my opinion. After all, the topic is "what is the Bible", so it follows that we will have a great deal of personal differences to deal with.

God Bless..............Alex

 

My Bible is the God breathed Word of God…… The bread of life….

II Timothy 3:16-17

The Word of God

For feelings come and feelings go,
And feelings are deceiving;
My warrant is the Word of God
Nought else is worth believing.
I’ll trust in God’s unchanging Word
Till soul and body sever:
For, though all things shall pass away,
His Word shall stand forever.

THIS BOOK contains the mind of God, the state of man, the way of salvation, the doom of sinners, and the happiness of believers. Its doctrines are holy, its precepts are binding, its histories are true, and its decisions are immutable.
READ IT TO BE WISE, believe it to be safe, and practice it to be holy. It contains light to direct you, food to support you, and comfort to cheer you. It is the traveler’s map, the pilgrim’s staff, the pilot’s compass, the soldier’s sword, and a Christian charter. Here paradise is restored, Heaven is opened, and the gates of hell disclosed.
CHRIST IS THE GRAND SUBJECT, our good its design, and the glory of God its end. It should fill the memory, rule the heart, and guide the feet.
READ IT SLOWLY, frequently, prayerfully. It is a mine of wealth, a paradise of glory, and a river of pleasure. It is given you in life, will be opened at the judgement, and be remembered forever. It involves the highest responsibility, will reward the greatest labor, and condemns all that trifle with its sacred contents. –Priscilla Howe

[ August 22, 2002, 08:24 PM: Message edited by: Graceforever ]

 

Alex this is a tough one, while Paul did advise the Corinthians to cast out the man in the incestous relationship, he also said of himself that that which I should do I do not but that I should't do that I do. 1st John says if we sin we have an advocate. Jesus told Peter to forgive his brother 70 times 7, so what do we do? I personally hope that a homosexual would sit in on my messages for I believe that they would either repent or the heat would cause them to leave. I think I will study the situation that I mentioned in Corinthians more. It is a thought though that in the period that the Church was beginning that God did some things to emphasize His authority that He might not normally do today, illustration would be Annanias and Saphira. They blasphemed the Holy Ghost and bam they were dead but today according to whether you consider yourself a liberal or a conservative some on the opposite side from you should be dropping dead at the keyboard. Can God still do it, yes but He doesn't seem to make it a habit (thank God). I say whosoever will may come and while I am sure some homosexual has caused disturbance in Church and I am sure they will again but for me it has been my experience that normal everyday sinners cause plenty of trouble on their own.
Grace

 

Alex, the reason I thought you meant me instead of post-it is that the "The consequences of our actions..." quote is taken directly from my response from Mr. Hutton. Anyway, no hard feelings. God Bless.

 

So, David, what did you mean by the following?:

How about that non-Christians will see that you don't have to buy into a narrow set of beliefs about scripture to believe in the good news of Jesus Christ, &gt;&gt;

God Bless........Alex

 

Page 1 post says that some dudes sitting around a campfire--started writing it all down!! Well, there's a lot of smoke clouding Villines' spiritual eyes--it would do him well if he got off of his perch--moved to a spot where the smoke will be downwind--he'll not tear up so bad and have that terrible hackin' spiritual cough!!

 

This is not just for Post-it, but anyone else who believes this. I can't believe you guys are catagorizing sin (big sin/little sin....harmful sin/non-harmful sin). Do you think that a man who commits adultery or rape or murder does not in some way sin in "little" ways that lead to those brazen acts? Do you realize that "little" seemingly harmless sins going unchecked in a habitual manner lead to "big" sins? Yikes! It's like saying habitual sin does not have a bad affect of people.

A Bible believing church who sees itself as the body of Christ would not allow it's members to form a habitual lifestyle of sin. We, as the church, have a ministry of edification, building up of one another, restoration. I don't see how allowing habitual sin (like a cancer) stay in the body and cause death and destruction.

suzanne

 

We ask forgiveness and repent of little sins. We just are admitting that we will continue committing little sin just as Paul admitted. The point of the post was that it should not be the grounds to kick people out of Church. That's all I'm saying.

Habitual sinners like Gluttony, smoking shouldn't be kicked out either. If the sin does no harm to others, then they should be allowed to stay in the Church. They certainly are still Christian. Kicking them out could cause them to stumble. And most likely will!!!

Rapist, killers, child molestors/ex-priests, who turn christian should not be allowed in Family Churches even after they have come out of prison. They need to form their own church and go there. But we are never to say that these people aren't Christians after they confess Jesus, we just shouldn't be stupid and open our doors to them. God can love them in their own church.

He says forgive, not forget and pretend it didn't happen.