confused about Calvin (Page 21) Round two

Let's see, where do I start...

God is never obligated to show mercy to anyone, even the one who supposedly "has faith." That is the point of the verse in Romans 9.

More specifically, Romans 9 is not a treatise on election, although it is a major point made by Paul in verse 11. (notice the word election is used, even in your Bible) The point of Romans 9 is, why are Gentiles being saved and Jews have rejected the Messiah (yes, I said they rejected, while others received. Get it out of your head that Calvinists don't believe this). The answer Paul gives is that God never made His covenant with all the Jews, but only with those he chose. This extends (in chapter 9) to God's showing of mercy to anyone. God chooses who He is going to show mercy to based solely on Him who calls (see verse 11). To illustrate this in a non-Jewish person, Paul uses the example of Pharaoh, whom God chose to be a vessel of His wrath. In Romans 9, God's mercy is NOT offered to the whole world, if by that phrase you mean everyone who has ever lived. It is offered to those He elects.

It's in there, you just have to read it. This is the passage that turned me into a Calvinist before I ever knew what Calvinism was.

I am saying that this verse is difficult for anyone if you really read it. Are you saying that God doesn't get what He truly desires? One of the things that makes God God is that He gets exactly what He wants. The problem is that not everone gets saved. There are, in theological terms, two wills in God. One is a will of desire. The other is a will of decree. God desires all to be saved and end up in heaven. However (and this is true whether you are a Calvinist or not) it is obvious that God has not decreed that everyone be saved or there would be no lost people. Since this is not case (there are lost people) this verse can be used as no proof of either free will or election. The only thing this verse could be used as a proof-text for is Universalism, which we both reject.

Again, Calvinists don't deny that you must choose. We don't deny that salvation is through faith. We don't deny that you must repent. We don't deny any of the Bible's teachings in this matter. But we also don't deny that the Bible says you are unable to unless God opens your eyes (see Lydia in Acts), breathes life into the dry bones (see Ezekiel), raises you up and makes you alive (see Ephesians 3). He only does this to the elect. When He does this, you willingly exercise faith to believe. That is the biblical picture, not the humanistic understanding that Arminianism is based on.

Wrong.

All these passages regard healing. I don't deny that these people were saved at this point, though. Nor do I deny that they exercised faith. I would just say that it is obvious that they were elect (chosen) before the foundation of the world.

God doesn't need faith. He is God. We need faith. God gives it to us. It is part of the "gift of God" in Ephesians 2:8-9.

Again, do you mean world in the sense of every living person who was alive at the time of Christ or every living person who ever lived or Gentiles as well as Jews or Satan's evil system that opposes itself to God or any one of the other many ways that particular word is used in the Bible, especially by John?

I will assume that since "predestination" is in the Bible, yet you say it makes God a sinner, then you misspoke.

1. Yes, the word "world" means different things in different contexts. Very rarely does it mean every person who has ever lived. Did Jesus die for Judas? If so, then Jesus' mission was doomed to failure before it ever started because Judas was chosen as the "son of perdition" before the world was created. Did Jesus die for those in hell? If so, then His mission was doomed to failure before it ever started because those in hell were already in hell.

2. I do believe that every person who has ever lived receives some benefit from the death of Christ. The very fact that they are allowed to take one more breath without being judged immediately by God is owing to the death of Christ on the cross.

No, because both are in the Scripture. Re-read the Greek lesson about what the words really mean.

Once again, we do not deny that men willingly reject God and that when men do choose God they do it willingly. We deny, as does the Bible, that anyone seeks God on their own (Romans 3:10-18). We deny, as does the Bible, that anyone has the capacity to understand the things of the spirit on their own (1 Corinthians 2:14). We deny, as does the Bible, that anyone comes to Jesus unless the Father draws him (John 6:44). We deny, as does the Bible that anyone the Father draws will reject that drawing (John 6:37). Read those passages again.

When men willingly choose to receive Jesus as their Savior, it is because God sovereignly chose them first. If God does not do the work of grace in someone's heart they continue to WILLINGLY reject Him. That is what the Bible says, not me, not John Calvin.

 

Hehe, glad I dropped out of this one back on page 5 of the first thread

I just wanted to drop in a post a short list of the Baptist "heretics" who were also Calvinist. Keep them in mind when you sling your wild allegations about Calvinist around. It might even serve as a good history lesson - I find most Baptist don't know their roots.

Charles Spurgeon (1834-1892);
Isaac Backus (1724-1806);
W. B. Johnson (1782-1862)
Abraham Booth (1734-1806);
Adoniram Judson (1788-1850)
James P. Boyce (1827-1888);
Benjamin Keach (1640-1704)
John Brine (1703-1765);
William Kiffin (1616-1701)
John A. Broadus (1827-1895);
Hanserd Knollys (1599-1691)
John Bunyan (1628-1688);
John Leland (1754-1841)
William Carey (1761-1834);
Basil Manly Sr. (1798-1868)
B. H. Carroll (1843-1914);
Basil Manly Jr. (1825-1892)
Alexander Carson (1776-1884);
Patrick Hues Mell (1814-1888)
John L. Dagg (1794-1884);
Jesse Mercer (1769-1841)
Edwin C. Dargan (1852-1930);
J. M. Pendleton (1811-1891)
Andrew Fuller (1754-1815);
J. C. Philpot (1802-1869)
Richard Furman (1755-1825);
Arthur W. Pink (1886-1952)
John Clarke (1609-1676);
Luther Rice (1783-1836)
J. B. Gambrell (1841-1921);
John Rippon (1751-1836)
John Gano (1727-1804);
John C. Ryland (1723-1792)
John Gill (1697-1771);
John Skepp (c. 1670-1721)
J. R. Graves (1820-1893);
A. H. Strong (1836-1921)
Robert Hall (1728-1791);
John Spilsbery (1593-1668)
Alva Hovey (1820-1903);
H. Boyce Taylor (1870-1932)
R. B. C. Howell (1801-1868);
J. B. Tidwell (1870-1946)
Henry Jessey (1601-1663);
Francis Wayland (1796-1865)

Among the roll call of Calvinistic Baptists can also be found four great leaders of the modern Baptist missionary movement: Adoniram Judson, Luther Rice, William Carey, and Andrew Fuller.

Also don't ignore the many other great Christians in history who were Calvinist, especially names like Hudson Taylor and Jonathon Edwards. And those "heretic" revivals like "The Great Awakening"

 

EARLIER church fathers that WEREN'T.
Justin Martyr A.D. 100-165
Irenaeus A.D 130-200
Athenagoras of Athens (Second Century)
Theophilus of Antioch (second Century)
Tatian of Syria (late second century)
Clement of Alexandria (c. 150-215)
Bardaisan of Syria (c.154-222)
Tertullian (155-225)
Novation of Rome (c. 200-258)
Origen (c. 185-254)
Methodius (c. 260-311)
Archellaus (c. 277)
Arnobius of Sicca (c. 253-327)
Cyril of Jerusalem (c. 312-386)
Gregory of Nyssa (c. 335-395)
Jerome (c. 347-420)
John Chrysostom (347-407)
Early ST. Augustine (354-430)
ST. Anselm (1033-1109)
Thomas Aquinas (1224-1274)

JW, I have read some those like Spurgeon, Tidwell, Taylor. Some great writers indeed. How many of them do you agree 100% with? Another thing that amazes me that with all those great names most people still do not adhere to the teachings of John Calvin. YOu have really added more to my faith that the calvinist haven't got it right.

 

There have been great people on both sides of the fence. The only thing these lists of names do is show that neither view has always been the predominant view. People that believe in the sovereignty of the free will were branded heretics in the 400's. Today, those who hold to the sovereignty of God's will are branded heretics. The important thing is not what John Calvin or anyone else had to say. What saith the Scripture.

 

I don't believe in the sovereignty of free will or follow the teachings of John Calvin. Calvibaptist.

Guess I like Biblicest!

 

Tim the Toolman Taylor:

Love your show

My point was simply that Calvinism is a historical and orthodox position, and should not be looked at as some new heresy as some have asserted. Even among the list of church fathers you gave, Augustine believed strongly in the doctrines of grace (which I guess is why you prefaced it with "early"... but then again, "early" jw didn't believe in Calvinism either, nor did I believe in the Bible or any Christian doctrines).

The same question could be asked of the early church father's you cited, which of them do you agree 100% with? I would guess none. Many had some serious theological errors - more so than many of the later Baptists I named. If you were working on a sermon would you pick up Pink's commentary, or Justine Martyr's? Luther Rice, or Clement of Alexandria?

Once again, the point was simply that Calvinism is a historic position, especially among Baptist circles, and many great men of the faith believed it.

 

"WHY" then did Jesus die for all sins since Adam/Eve to the last person saved???

Ro 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

1Jo 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, (the saved)

but also for the sins of the whole (unsaved) world.

You have to "seriously twist" the scripture to say: "God's mercy is NOT offered to the whole world".

I'd suggest understanding the total "Purpose/Goal" of Jesus's mission to fulfil God's will before deciding who was/wasn't to be saved.

Do any perish??

2Pe 3:9 not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

In the area of salvation, God doesn't get all he wants, "Man's will (choices) prevents it.

There are "areas" in which God's will is supreme, but salvation isn't one of them.

If God only "enables" the elect, then he is a respecter of sinners (persons)

I once was "Spiritual blind", but "MY FAITH" in Jesus, "SAVED ME", now I "SEE".

Does that "make the connection"??

They didn't become "Elect" until they were saved, "Foreknowledge", I agree.

WRONG, God doesn't give us "our faith", he only "Increases" it.

Lu 17:5 And the apostles said unto the Lord, Increase our faith.

"EXACTLY", not willing for "ANY" to perish.

1Jo 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Either that or you misinterpret "WHAT" was to be "predestine".

Every place "predestination" is mentioned, it's the "plan of salvation" being described, not who will/won't be saved.

Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself,

The "predestine plan" was to adopt us through Jesus,

Ro 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son,

Just because we know what will happen, (Forknow) doesn't mean we "predestine" it to happen, I "forknow" most people leave the church building after services, but I didn't "predestine it".

Are you accusing "GOD" of "tempting Judas" with sin, of which he had "No choice"??

Jas 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

I believe it was Satan which enter Judas, wasn't it???

God had "millions" of sinner to chose from for the role of Judas, he didn't need to "predestinate" any, through Foreknowledge, "luck of the draw", Judas won.

YES and taken out of context/misapplied very often.

Why does God call Many, but only choses a few, if he has no intention of saving them why call???

Again, what was the purpose of Jesus's coming, "not to condemn" but to save, how many, "whole world"??

Is God a "respecter of persons" with his "calling"??

Your "example" only occur "AFTER" salvation, we're discussing how/why a person becomes saved.

Many are called, but not saved, and "SOME" are "NEVER Called".

That's a "new one" on me, never heard it before.

And a "God of lawlessness", since God is "LOVE", and "LOVE" works no "ILL" toward "ANYONE".

Ro 13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

So how many did God love, the "World"???

You tell me, can you show "ONE PLACE" where "ANYONE" was "predestine" to be saved/lost, I can save you the trouble, it's not in the Bible, "EVERY PLACE" "predestination" is used it descibes the "plan of salvation", not who will/won't be saved.

"predestine through adoption, predestine to conform".

Joh 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

Maybe there's a "Third option".

Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

So how does the OT saints who died before Jesus was born get to heaven, Did Jesus "draw them", HOW???

Which comes first, Faith or "forgiveness/Pardon/regeneration???

Calvin error is believing people are "regenerated" before they have "faith" to be saved, but a person's "faith" must exist "BEFORE" God will save/regenerate.

Heb 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

"WRONG", God doesn't send any to hell because they are sinners, "all have sinned", God send them to hell BECAUSE of their "UNBELIEF/REJECTION" of Jesus to save them.

Joh 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already,

"BECAUSE"....he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

God/Jesus provided a way out of hell for the "WHOLE WORLD", and "UNBELIEF" is the only thing preventing them from escaping hell, and it's for that "UNBELIEF" they are condemned.

If the charge in God Court was being a "sinner", we'd all be condemned BECAUSE we're "ALL SINNERS/GUILTY".

 

I won't follow any religion that believes in pædoßaptism

 

Who says all that hold to the doctrine of grace believe in paedobaptism ? And further , do you respect anyone as a Christian brother or sister outside of the Baptists ?

 

I understood that JW. There were great men of the faith on both sides. Thats all, and calvinist did come later.

 

How you must hate that child already, though not yet born.

 

I do,..............YOU don't! Something wrong?!

 

Then the God who "claims" to "love the world", sent his son not to "condemn the world" but save it by dying for all sins because God wasn't willing for any to perish,

Is either A LAIR or they perish "IN SPITE" of God's plan to save them.

You've got to come down on one side of the fence or the other, which is it???

Jesus offer to take Israel under his wings, they would not, was Jesus going against the "will of the Father" or possibily lying, if it was "predestine" for them to reject Jesus, and how can the Jews be blamed for the "Sin" of rejection if they "had no choice"??

Your example shows how much Calvins doctrine is out of context with the stated purpose/goal of Jesus's mission and God's will.

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

1Jo 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole (unsaved) world.
(that the world through him might be saved.)

Calvin denies the "intent/purpose/goal" of God/Jesus as stated in scripture.

Who doing the "Twisting"??

The "Tree of life" (Jesus) was "in the garden" and known about, prophecied to come, "since the beginning", only in these "last days" has he been "manifeasted to the world".

Eph 5:32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

Eph 3:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God,

But does this "preclude" the OT saint who died before Jesus came from entering heaven since "NO MAN" comes to the Father except by Jesus, "Absolutely not, that's why Jesus preached to the "SPIRITS" in prison and resurrected/led them to heaven when he ascended.

I don't think most Calvainist have a "broad enough" knowledge of scripture to recognize it's contradictions of other scripture.

Learning is a process that keeps changing the mind, up to the point of "Dogmatic", then it "stops".

 

Your talking pure nonesense. Have no idea what you are saying. But I know perfectly well what you said ealier and that you if you love God with all your heart, soul and mind anothing is left so we are to hate everything else because all of our love has gone out or been used. I am just trying to get you to see the pure folley of you statement. By the words you have chosen you hate everyone but God. See you have used all your love for God. Is that not what you said. I can go back and get qoutes. You said nothing is left, when I asked if we were to hate our father and mother. Your interpttion is wrong tjats all. It is best we don't get into the second part till we settle this love hate thing. Your interptation paints you into a cornor as does your second one on ACts that I will deal with later. Lets stick to the first right now.

So you love or hate your wife, daughter, grandchildren or soon to come grandchildren?

 

Thank you for using these verses, because they prove my point. If the verse in Romans 5 means that justification came to every person who has ever lived (as you say) then every person who has ever lived is saved. It does not say "possible justification." It says justification. Either we have to understand "all men" in a way that is different from the way you want to understand it or we do injustice to the meaning of the word justification.

The same situation exists for the verse you quoted from 1 John. It does NOT say "He is the possible propitiation." It says He is the propitiation. Propitiation means "satisfaction of God's wrath." Either God's wrath is satisfied or it is not. It is not "possibly satisfied waiting for someone to take Him up on His offer." You either have to understand "whole world" differently or you do injustice to the meaning of the word propitiation.

You have decided on the one, I have decided on the other. I can point to *times when "all men" and "world" mean something different than every human being from Adam until the end. Can you point to other instances in the Bible when "justification" doesn't mean "declared righteous" and when "propitiation" doesn't mean "satisfaction of God's wrath?" I doubt it.

* "all men"
Zechariah 8:10 For before these days There were no wages for man nor any hire for beast; There was no peace from the enemy for whoever went out or came in; For I set all men, everyone, against his neighbor.

Obviously, not everyone from Adam on down was set against their neighbor. He even uses the word "everyone" here and it still doesn't mean everyone from Adam on down.

Luke 6:26 Woe to you when all men speak well of you, For so did their fathers to the false prophets.

Was Jesus suggesting that every person who had ever lived spoke well of the Pharisees? I think not.

Acts 21:28 crying out, "Men of Israel, help! This is the man who teaches all men everywhere against the people, the law, and this place; and furthermore he also brought Greeks into the temple and has defiled this holy place."

Were the Jews suggesting that Paul had taught everyone, including Adam? Obviously not.

Acts 22:15 For you will be His witness to all men of what you have seen and heard.

Was God telling Paul that he would physically talk to every person who had ever lived, including those that would come after him? Doesn't hold water.

Romans 12:17-18 Repay no one evil for evil. Have regard for good things in the sight of all men. 18 If it is possible, as much as depends on you, live peaceably with all men.

Do these verses suggest that we should live peaceably with those who have died already? No, it's obvious that here "all men" means everyone we come in contact with, not everyone who has ever lived.

1 Corinthians 9:22 to the weak I became as weak, that I might win the weak. I have become all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.

Same as last verse. Paul was not suggesting that he had become all things to everone who had ever lived, from Adam on down. He meant everone he came in contact with.

1 Corinthians 10:33 just as I also please all men in all things, not seeking my own profit, but the profit of many, that they may be saved.

Ditto above comment.

2 Corinthians 3:2 You are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read by all men;

Ditto above comment.

1 Timothy 2:1-2 Therefore I exhort first of all that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks be made for all men, 2 for kings and all who are in authority, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and reverence.

It's always nice when a word is futher explained. Such is the case here. Paul defines "all men" from verse 1 as "kings and all who are in authority." He is not saying that we should pray for everyone who has ever lived. He is saying we should pray for all types of men, including those in authority.

Therefore...

1 Timothy 2:4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

This verse does NOT say that God desires that everyone who has ever lived be saved. It says that God desires all TYPES of men to be saved, including kings and those in authority. Here "all men" means all categories of men, not every individual.

1 Timothy 4:10 For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe.

Here, all men is defined as "those who believe." That phrase is in aposition. That means, it defines the previous term.

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,

Has God's grace appeared to everone who has ever lived? No.

These are a few references for you to chew on. I will have to handle the rest of your comments as well as references for "world" later. Note: there are times when "all men" refers to everone who has ever lived. But those times are actually infrequent in the Scriptures. Maybe you can look those up...