Who goes to Heaven?

Larry, I did not say that babies are not sinners until they consciously sin. I said they are not held accountable for their sins, which are a result of their sin nature, until they consciously and deliberately sin. Big difference. We ALL sin. But if I know better than to hold my profoundly retarded son accountable for what he does wrong, and I am a sinner, too, and finite, then I know that God, being so far above me in Who He is, certainly has no trouble not condemning little kids for what they do by nature. That's like getting mad at a hungry person for eating!

[ August 11, 2002, 12:17 AM: Message edited by: Helen ]

 

The Law At The Time Of Adam was The Soul That Sins Shall Die. That Was Called Original Sin. The Curse From Breaking The Original Offense of The Law caused All Of Creation to Be Plunged Into Death. Everything That Is Born In this State is Dead or Has A Nature Of Death.
Viewing This Action From A Legalistic view without mercy Leaves All Of Mankind with NO WAY of saving Itself (while inside this state of death). whether living or Pre Born...No One outside a Devine Intervention Can Be Saved.
Religions States that one MUST Recognize The Activity of A Subsitution Death made by God Himself For His Creation as An Integral Part Of Being Accepted Before God. That One Must Cognatively, Mentally and Verbally State This Fact while Still Alive.
So Theres The Conundrum..The Person Has To Be Alive and cognitive. mentally aware and verbally receptive before God...or So Religion States..
My Opinion..God Dies For Creation..God Chooses Whom He Draws To Jesus..The High Priest..They Are chosen As Examples of Mankind For All Eternity..They Are Taught How To Reconcile others as Examples of Jesus...Since Jesus Died For All Mankind. Most of Mankind will be Reconciled When They Enter Death or Leave This State Of Death and Enter A New State Of Life...
Some are waiting For Jesus To Come Here Again Physically..How About Us Going To Him to a New State of existence where Sin Doesnt Exist. Making Reconciliation Between Man and God Possible.
There you will find your babies along with all the rest of creation.

Legally God Doesnt Allow Anyone To Save Themselves..Add The Death Of Jesus and God Himself Imputing Righteousness On ALL OF SINFUL MANKIND and Everyone Gets Saved..
Not Just Some "Innocent Babies" and No One Else That Was Just Plain Ignorant.
God Is Not Partial....His Will Is That All Mankind Be Saved. Most Are Not Chosen In This State Of Death To Be Vessels For The Father To Be Shown Mercy To. Not Everyone Will Be Eternal Examples. This Activity In Time Is For The Body Of Christ..Now.
The Rest Of Creation Will LEARN About The Propitiation Of God Later.

 

Perhaps I was unclear. My apologies. My position is that babies do go to heaven. I believe 2 Sam 12 gives us enough evidence to speak with confidence. I draw a line between confidence and dogmatism. I will say dogmatically that Christ is God and if you disagree (with knowledge), I will say that you are unbiblical, unorthodox, and unsaved. I believe confidently that babies go to heaven. If you disagree, I will say that we disagree. I will not hold you unbiblical, unorthodox, or unsaved.

[ August 11, 2002, 08:45 AM: Message edited by: Pastor Larry ]

 

How so? What did I say that makes you think I have a serious problem?

Are you in possession of a verse you did not list that says, "Babies go to heaven"? Or are you making dogmatic statements that Scripture does not make?

Additionally, these are the kinds of posts that lead people to believe you are attacking others. You do not need to say that someone has a serious problem when they disagree with your level of dogmatism. You need to say, I disagree with you and here are the reasons. Incidentally, you still have given no reasons why you believe this to be true. I have given more support for this position than you have.

 

Right ... I knew your position. I was a little simplistic about it. My apologies. But even in this, I am unconvinced that Scripture supports you for reasons we previously discussed. I do not believe that God can simply "overlook" sin because someone didn't know what they were doing. There was a sacrifice for those sins of ignorance in the OT, a clear evidence that was people were held accountable for unconscious sin. If they were not held accountable, then why have a sacrifice?

 

Larry,I gave you the verses that prove what I believe. Hey at least I found something we both agree on. Christ is God,and if you don't believe that you are unsaved.

 

But my question to you, and I am still interested, is this: How do those verses prove anything about babies?

 

Right ... I knew your position. I was a little simplistic about it. My apologies. But even in this, I am unconvinced that Scripture supports you for reasons we previously discussed. I do not believe that God can simply "overlook" sin because someone didn't know what they were doing. There was a sacrifice for those sins of ignorance in the OT, a clear evidence that was people were held accountable for unconscious sin. If they were not held accountable, then why have a sacrifice?</font>[/QUOTE]Larry, the Bible seems to make it clear that although all sin must be accounted for, that those who do not know the law are nevertheless not held personally accountable for their sins. It may seem like a fine distinction, but I think it is a very important one. No sin is ignored.

It's kind of like a parent paying for what a little kid shoplifted, though. Who is actually responsible? No one, really, in a sense. The child sees Mommy filling the cart with lovely things and the nice man at the counter putting them in bags for her. Well a candy bar doesn't need a whole bag -- the pocket is just fine!

The child didn't know Mommy was paying the nice man. The nice man didn't know the child had the candy bar and neither did mommy.

Nevertheless, it still was right to pay for it. Especially after the child ate it! So Mommy pays, even though she is not responsible for the theft, and her child did not know, and the man did not know.

In our case, God knows. But the child doesn't. And the parents cannot be held responsible for the child's sin nature! But the child is sinning because of that nature. And you are right -- God does not overlook sin.

So He paid, Himself, even for all of us regarding sins we have never been conscious of ourselves, and I'm sure there have been many for all of us.

The children are no exception.

 

I say the same thing Dr. Bob does. Only the elect go to Heaven. Therefore, there are elect babies, and unelect babies, because as soon as a baby is conceived, that baby is part of the fallen human race which is under condemnation and therefore subject to the wrath of God. To say they don't because they have commited no act of sin yet is to say that it is the acts of sin that send us to hell rather than the sin nature which is in all human beings, including babies, and therefore, it is to say also that what gets us to heaven is the good works that we do instead of these good works being the result of a regenerated heart.
As for David, I believe he means he will go to his son to the grave, not to be with him in heaven, because though he himself knows God and God knows him, he has no way of knowing that his baby is known of God.

 

I believe the Bible gives us enough information to conclude that all babies who die go to heaven. Although I agree there is not a verse that says it plainly. But then again, many biblical principles we hold to are not spelled out in a specific, isolated verse.

In a conversation I had about this very subject, a man used 1Cor 7:14 "For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy." He interpreted this verse as saying if the parents are saved, the baby will go to heaven. Of course the alternative is obvious.

I quickly pointed out a couple of things to this man:
1. Paul is speaking here of marriage - not salvation.
2. Salvation is never based on what someone else (other than Jesus Christ) did or didn't do. Salvation is attained by each individual by and for themselves. Someone made this statement, "God has no grandchildren." I believe this to be true.

By the way, I do not believe in election as it has been represented in this thread. I guess I am old-fashioned enough to believe that "whosoever" means anyone who will may come to the Lord. That's why I go soulwinning every week. I want to find those "whosoevers" in my community.

 

I do believe in election as presented in this thread. I am also old-fashioned enough to believe that whosoever means anyone who will come to the Lord. I too want to find those whosoevers. In fact, I just led a "whosoever" to the Lord over Sunday dinner. Of course my point is that you have presented a total non sequitur. I witness and evangelize weekly because God is calling his elect to himself. He has determined to do that through the preaching of the Word which I do faithfully.

 

The fact that God has unilaterally and sovereignly elected some to salvation does not negate the need of soulwinning and witnessing. This is a common misconception. I witness and confront people with the gospel through various means because I believe that God has elected some to salvation. I, nor most others, do not believe that God will save anyone apart from the message of hte gospel presented clearly and the response of repentance and faith. I do believe that where God ordains teh ends (the salvation of the elect individuals) he also ordains the means to those ends (the sharing fo the gospel). In fact, this is exactly the position that Paul espouses in 1 Tim 2:8-10 when he says he endures all things for the sake of the elect so that they may be saved. It is obvious that he believed some were elect but not yet saved. It cannot be physical salvation for one would be hardpressed to explain how Paul's imprisonment for preaching would lead to physical salvation of the elect. It must therefore be spiritual salvation. So we see that election precedes salvation (not comes as a result of it as some would have us believe).

Believing that God has assured that some will be saved encourages us in preaching. It should not discourage us. If someone is not faithfully witnessing and sharing the gospel, they are disobedient.

 

Larry,That scripture is talking abou babies.Make sure you are using a KJV. Are you a calvinist? If you are not you are very close to it.WHOSOEVER means WHOSOEVER.

 

We've been talking about babies going to heaven! Another question that will stump the best "Calvin" boy is this--what about those who are "retarded"--those who are incapable of comprehending the need for salvation? I believe that God's word teaches as a whole that those folks are "safe" in Jesus! What about it?

 

Pastor Larry,
May I respectfully acknowledge that you meant 2 Timothy 2:8-10.

I believe that Paul is referring to the Church when he uses the term "elect." The sense is, What I suffer is in the cause of the church, spoken of here, as it is often, as chosen, or elected.

Their salvation, though they were elected, could not be secured without proper efforts. The meaning of the apostle here is, that he was willing to suffer if he might save others; and any one ought to be willing to suffer in order to secure the salvation of the elect.

Salvation refers to the "final salvation" with eternal glory. The same principle is taught in:
1Peter 5:10 "But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle you."

2Cor 4:17 "For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory;"

2Cor 1:6 "And whether we be afflicted, it is for your consolation and salvation, which is effectual in the enduring of the same sufferings which we also suffer: or whether we be comforted, it is for your consolation and salvation."

It is important to note that Paul was addressing Christians when he spoke of their "future salvation."

 

I will give my position, unpopular as it likely will be.

Let me first say that this is not an abstract discussion for me. I habe firsthand experience with situations that bear directly on this question.

Now then: I don't believe we have cuase to say with confidence that any one child does go to heaven. We can say that teh judge of all the world will do right. We can say that God can save babies. But we have no gorunds for saying to any one person that their baby is definitely in heaven. We just don't know.

This obviosly means that I believe that babies can go to hell. The reasons are simple. Romans 1, the Fall... all that. I believe firmly in original sin. I believe that when Paul teaches that all people are without excuse, then they are. When he says all have sinned, then I believe him. In short, there is no way, IMO, to get around the fact that babies are found to be as liable to damnation as any person who happens to live past the "age of accountability".

Some might ask how an infant sins. I think there is a scriptural answer to that, but let me just say that even if there isn't, nothing is changed. If Scripture doesn;t say HOW an ifant has sined it nevertheles teaches that all people are witout excuse (Ro. 1). There is no admission of exception. To do so would undermine Paul's argument.

Having said that, let me repeat, I do believe that there are babies in heaven. David seems to have had certainty of that. I beleive that certainty to have been a gift from God. A precious gift it must have been.

I can't say that I have been so gifted with that certainty. But I pray for it. And in the meantime I have hope. Hope bas on the Word. Certainty can only come from God. Opinions of people are, no offense people, not worthwhile given the stakes. We should stick with what we definitely know. We don't definitely know that all abbies go to heaven. We shouldn't say so. We do now God is good, and just. To say more is to possibly give false hope. Not a good pastoral strategy.

 

John 1:29 The Next day John seeth Jesus coming unto Him, and Saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh Away The Sin of The World.

Limited or Unlimited Atonement ?

 

I am Praying for any of you who honestly believe that our God will condemn a baby to hell. Jesus said let the children come to me and forbid them not. He encourages us to bring them to Him and I have no doubt that in the event that death takes them away before they are able to learn of Him that his Angels sweep them into His arms. In all the argument here please don't cause a moment of pain to anyone who may check in that has lost a child. And please do not show a quiver of hesitancy in your voice if you are called upon to council a grieving parent. And forbid them not, take that to heart. Concerning election I have no problem believing that even a hanging chad can cause a baby to lose this election.
Murphy