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MMF - Another rock n roll topic

Discussion in '2000-02 Archive' started by Revolt, Jun 20, 2002.

  1. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    God cares, but the devil doesn't. God cares all about you, the decisions you make, the music you listen to, the music you use to worship Him, the words you use to adore, worship, and pray, the words you use to communicate not just with God, but with your fellowman. GOD CARES!!

    God hates profanity. Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain. Can you sing to the Lord His praises, and at the same time curse and swear? Does God care what music we praise Him with. Is there a "profane" music, and a "sacred" music? Why is it that I can go into a secular music store and find a section called "sacred?" Do even the unsaved recognize the difference between the profane and the sacred? Some Christians would put so-called Christian words to music similar to that of Marilyn Manson's and then have the gall to call it Christian! It is no more Christian than the anti-christ himself. Secular people, the unsaved crowd, know who Marilyn Manson is. Do you? To many reading this you may think I am using an extreme example. Not all CCM is patterened after Manson's music. But almost all of it is patterened after the world. It is profane and not sacred. It is carnal and not spiritual. It is of the world and not of God. "Whosoever therefore shall be a friend of the world is the enemy of God."
    DHK
     
  2. Odemus

    Odemus New Member

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    This passage has everything to do with the topic at hand.
    Obviously murder and adultery is wrong, it goes without saying that he isn't referring to sin here.What he is saying is that meat offered to idols is still just meat and should have no affect on your conscience.If you can't tell that he is talking about much more than just meat here then I can't help you.

    You are the first brother I have ever spoken to who had a problem of conscience with regard to music.Sorry, my God praising Christian music stays and no one is taking it away.If I am riding in the car with you one day I'll be sure to protect your delicate sensitivities and confine our listening to "Ye olde Gospel time".

    I never used the word neutral, you did.Music can be used to communicate a wide array of emotions, from happiness to mournful dirges but it cannot convey lust or hatred or anything sinful.All you have said thus far is that it does without offering any scriptural support whatsoever.What does that tell you about your argument?

    Sin comes from the heart and is revealed in our actions. It doesn't ever start with our actions.
    Interesting that he is attacking legalists here isn't it?

    Your challenge hasn't changed one bit by the way.So far you haven't sited one single scriptural reference to support your argument that certain music (and now instruments it seems) can be considered evil.I'm still waiting for something other than subjective opinion.

    [ June 28, 2002, 11:56 AM: Message edited by: Odemus ]
     
  3. Revolt

    Revolt New Member

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    something is known by its fruit right? Well our band had a concert last week (at a baptist church too [​IMG] ) where about five kids got saved and plugged into that church. POD leads people to christ at the ozz fest of all places.
    Yes we as christians are supposed to be seperate from the world but we are still in the world. We need to go out to where the world is and tell them about the gospel. Who elese did that, oh yeah that guy Jesus that we worship. ;)
    If christian rock isnt acceptable why arent you going on MTV with hymns or playing them at the ozzfest.
     
  4. Ransom

    Ransom Active Member

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    Aaron said:

    You were equating the 12-tone scale to "worldly music." Weren't you.

    Yep. Let me know when you give up all ungodly, 12-tone music based on a scale defined by a pagan philosopher.
     
  5. AdoptedDaughter

    AdoptedDaughter New Member

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    Aaron, nowhere in that post did you even once quote scipture. If we are talking about providing proof from scripture, I suggest that you do the same thing. We are commanded to worship God in the NT, now if you can show me where it says exactly how we are to worship and not to worship in the BIBLE, then I will give you the privielege of you trying to prove your point, which from the begining and as of now, you have provided no proof.

    In Christ's gracious love,
    Teresa
     
  6. Matticus

    Matticus New Member

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    God cares, but the devil doesn't. God cares all about you, the decisions you make, the music you listen to, the music you use to worship Him, the words you use to adore, worship, and pray, the words you use to communicate not just with God, but with your fellowman. GOD CARES!!

    God hates profanity. Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain. Can you sing to the Lord His praises, and at the same time curse and swear? Does God care what music we praise Him with. Is there a "profane" music, and a "sacred" music? Why is it that I can go into a secular music store and find a section called "sacred?" Do even the unsaved recognize the difference between the profane and the sacred? Some Christians would put so-called Christian words to music similar to that of Marilyn Manson's and then have the gall to call it Christian! It is no more Christian than the anti-christ himself. Secular people, the unsaved crowd, know who Marilyn Manson is. Do you? To many reading this you may think I am using an extreme example. Not all CCM is patterened after Manson's music. But almost all of it is patterened after the world. It is profane and not sacred. It is carnal and not spiritual. It is of the world and not of God. "Whosoever therefore shall be a friend of the world is the enemy of God."
    DHK

    You missed my point entirely. What I meant was this: it does not matter how much we praise God, as long as we are praising God. I have a question now: what is it that you dislike the most about Marilyn Manson's music; the lyrics he sings or the music itself?

    It does not seem like you are reading my entire posts, you missed the biggest point: you are limiting God, and God cannot be limited to what we perceive Him to be. Please stop trying to limit God!

    God Bless
    Matt
     
  7. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    Here you claim for yourself the right to use implicit meanings (those meanings that may be implied though not stated) in the Scriptures to support your position. Can I assume that you will afford me the same privilege? If not, then forget it.

    And yet your statement was in reply to my specific request for evidence of the neutrality of music. Yes, you meant to say that meat was neutral, and therefore, by extension, music is neutral. An incomprehensible leap in logic as will be painfully demonstrated shortly.

    Evidence?

    Again, Evidence? It seems you allow yourself to offer pure opinion and speculation on your part, yet you demand that every word I say have some kind of supporting documentation.

    But not for a lack of it.

    Nothing at all. Nothing about the truth or falsehood of my argument is revealed by my reticence.

    If you want a debate, and to see my evidence, I will be more than happy to take you on in the one-on-one debate forum.

    Are you game?
     
  8. Odemus

    Odemus New Member

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    I don't use anything implicit whatsoever.Do you see the statements above taken direcly from the same passage?They are inclusive of everything (including music).By the way, those statements provide the framework for Paul's message, meat offered to idols is just one specific example.So stop playing semantics.
    No, I meant to say that meat offered to idols was not sinful, and therefore by extension, music.

    Yes I do agree that your argument is in fact a painful demonstration, at least from the perspective of watching it.

    Evidence? </font>[/QUOTE]I cannot provide evidence.Personally, I feel it is almost entirely subjective what music communicates on an individual basis.When you hear 'Taps' you automatically associate it with mourning because you have seen it played so many times at funerals-again this is personal opinion, I am not trying to assert anything about the morality of music here.

    Again, Evidence? It seems you allow yourself to offer pure opinion and speculation on your part, yet you demand that every word I say have some kind of supporting documentation. </font>[/QUOTE]Mathew 15:18
    Mathew 15:19
    Mark 7:21-23

    Pretty basic stuff here Aaron.Sin is conceived in the heart, nowhere else.A middle c on the piano isn't any more sinful or holy than a middle c on the electric guitar.

    You have already lost the argument.The word of God is the beginning and the end of any moral discussion.The burden of proof was on you from the very beginning because it was your initial assertion that certain types of music can be considered inherently sinful.In order to verify the validity of any moral proposal the only standard is the Bible.Sorry brother but an argument of this nature without sticking to scripture is fruitless.

    Yours in Christ,

    Jacob

    [ June 28, 2002, 07:49 PM: Message edited by: Odemus ]
     
  9. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    Concerning Marilyn Manson,
    You would do well to do some of your own research. Manson is a minister in the church of Satan. He is an agent of Satan himself. Whatever he produces, whether music or lyrics is Satanic. It is straight from the pit of Hell. His sole object in life is to promote rebellion. When he came here there was debate in city council as to whether or not to permit his concert, and in Calgary to the south of us, they did cancel it all together. Even th world knows better. And yet Christians choose to associate with either him or his style of music. They ought to be ashamed.

    God is not some self-styled jerk up in Heaven doing whatever he wants to do. I don't know what kind of view you have of God. But God IS limited. He is limited both by His nature and by His Word. He is a God of order and not of confusion. Neither is His music, music of confusion. Please read Revelation 4 and 5 to get a sense of the music that God has in Heaven. I do not limit God; God has already limited Himself. Read and study His Word.
    DHK
     
  10. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    It doesn't apply to music, as I will show in this post. But let's look at 1 Corinthians a little closer. The situation was one of some Christians taking indecent liberties with food offered to idols. Paul's admonition was designed not to give Christians permission to do anything they pleased, with anything they pleased, but to rein them in lest they destroy those who had a conscience toward the food as an evil thing. "All things are lawful" was the rallying cry of wanton, over-permissive louts who cared more for their bellies than for the consciences of their brethren. This is immediately seen in the preceding verses where Paul is quite emphatic that we abstain from idolatry in all its forms, and in the succeeding verses in which he exhorts them not to seek their own good and fulfillment, but to seek the welfare of others.

    When meat is sold as food in the shambles, that's one thing, but served as something offered to an idol is something else. But even if it is served or sold in a legitimate manner, if it is said, "This is offered to an idol" eat not for the sake of the conscience of the one who brought it to your attention. Paul in no way opened the door to using those things consecrated to idols for the Christian's indulgence of his own apetites. The comment, "For the earth is the Lord's, and all it contains," is used to support the Christian in not partaking. "...eat not...for the earth is the lord's and the fulness thereof;" "...eat not...to the glory of God."

    And this is not just, "as long as you're around." Even rude people of the baser sort can abstain temporarily from their profane habits for the sake of one in their presence. Paul in another place said, "Wherefore, if meat make my brother to offend, I will eat no flesh while the world standeth, lest I make my brother to offend," 1 Cor. 8:13. In other words, Paul led a life so that even the weak Christian knew that Paul was careful to abstain from meats offered to idols even in private. "We then that are strong ought to bear the infirmities of the weak, and not to please ourselves. Let every one of us please his neighbour for his good to edification. For even Christ pleased not himself; but, as it is written, the reproaches of them that reproached thee fell on me," Rom. 15:1-3. "For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself," Rom. 14:7. "When ye sin so against the brethren, and wound their weak conscience, ye sin against Christ," 1 Cor. 8:12.

    So even if these verses applied to music, you see the Apostles emphasis on deferring to the conscience of your weaker brother. Not just when he's around, but even in your private life lest he justly suppose you to be an hypocrite.

    But these verses do not apply to music. The nature of meat and drink is corporeal, and only in respect to corporeal things will the Apostles even hint at an inherent goodness though polluted. Remember, all corporeal things will be burned up in the last day, 2 Pet. 3:10. They will be burned by reason of their pollution. We can't forget that. So when Paul says, "There is nothing unclean of itself," or "To the pure all things are pure," it is always in respect to elements, (though in the end they will melt with fervent heat) those physical, corporeal components of creation. Yet there are non-corporeal aspects of our existence upon earth. There is evil thinking, evil speaking, evil communications, evil people (for life is more than the body) worldly wisdom. Need I go on? More ridiculous yet, need I post the Scriptural references? (I will if I must.)

    Music is of that nature, for it is not the mere physical excitement of air molecules that makes music good or evil, it is the message that music communicates. I'm not talking about words, I'm talking about the aesthetic responses music elicits. The ultimate meaning of music is its effect upon the listener. That's why we like it so much. It makes us feel a certain way, and we can't help that.

    That is why 1 Cor. 10 does not apply to music.

    Music is communication, a form of intercouse, a reflection of thought and emotion, and that communication is either good or evil.

    A common, yet complete fallacy. The aesthetic effects of certain styles are universal. This has been conclusively established by extensive research conducted by preeminent musicologists and anthropologists. There have been studies involving infants and adults alike. I will post some of them if you want me to. Music that sounds sad to me sounds sad to the primitive, South-American Indian.

    I'll take them one by one:

    Matt. 15:18 But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.
    A statement again about the inability of elemental things to defile [a man's soul]. In this case meats or the dirt that might be on one's hands from inadvertent contact with some "unclean" thing. One deluded soul tried to extend this to also mean that nothing entering the eyes or ears can defile a man. Yet do we not constantly guard the viewing of our children? Do we not jealously guard what might enter thier ears? "Be not deceived, evil communications corrupt good manners," 1 Cor. 15:33.

    Matt. 15:19For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies.... Of course. I have no argument with this. But this the continuation of the thought expressed in vs 18, and I've already dealt with that.

    Matt. 7:21-2321 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
    22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
    23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

    I, of course, have no argument here either, but wondering where you're going with this. :confused:

    A middle c standing alone is not music. Music is an arrangement of musical tones designed to elicit a specific response. It has the power to make you feel a certain way whether you want to or not. Thus Proverbs 25:20. And that is why it is so promiscuoulsy employed by pagans in their worship, and rigidly controlled in Christian gatherings. As Adam Clarke said:
    But here you again argue neutrality. Now, don't deny it. You are saying that the middle c is neutral (not evil or good, sinful or holy). Yet, I would again challenge you to support your neutrality arguments from the Scriptures.

    [ June 29, 2002, 08:10 AM: Message edited by: Aaron ]
     
  11. Matticus

    Matticus New Member

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    Concerning Marilyn Manson,
    You would do well to do some of your own research. Manson is a minister in the church of Satan. He is an agent of Satan himself. Whatever he produces, whether music or lyrics is Satanic. It is straight from the pit of Hell. His sole object in life is to promote rebellion. When he came here there was debate in city council as to whether or not to permit his concert, and in Calgary to the south of us, they did cancel it all together. Even th world knows better. And yet Christians choose to associate with either him or his style of music. They ought to be ashamed.

    God is not some self-styled jerk up in Heaven doing whatever he wants to do. I don't know what kind of view you have of God. But God IS limited. He is limited both by His nature and by His Word. He is a God of order and not of confusion. Neither is His music, music of confusion. Please read Revelation 4 and 5 to get a sense of the music that God has in Heaven. I do not limit God; God has already limited Himself. Read and study His Word.
    DHK

    Look, I probably know more about Marilyn Manson than you do. I don't like him, and I do not agree with him or his messages. You did not quite answer my question though, you ducked around it. What bothers you most about Marilyn Manson, his music or his lyrics?
    Now, I know for a fact that Christ associated with sinners of all kinds. He hung with the tax collectors and other folks that were not much liked. Now, we should be doing the same thing. I see no problem with associating with Marilyn Manson. There is a problem when you agree with most of what he says.

    Now, if I am a minister in the Church of Christ, whatever I produce, lyrics or music, is of Christ. CHRIST!! not Satan. By you own reckoning here, you have agreed with me. Thanks.

    You are right in that God is limited by his nature and his Word. However, you are putting a limit on Him other than what He has already put on himself. If music is being used to praise God, then it is praising God, not anything else. It's a simple concept!!!

    God Bless
    Matt
     
  12. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    What bothers me most? Both of them are equally wrong, the music and the lyrics. Jesus never hung around sinners, as you say, for the fun of it. There was always a purpose for His ministry. The Bible never uses music as a tool for evangelism. Music is for worship. It did have some other purposes, such as calling the troops to war, but never was it used as an evangelistic tool to win people to Christ. People who think that music, or CCM in particular, is reaching out to the lost are badly deceived. The Bible says, "for the preaching of the cross is to them that perish, foolishness; but unto us which are saved, it is the power of God" (1Cor. 1:18).
    Rom.1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
    1Cor.1:23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
    Jesus did not associate himself deliberately with Pharisees and hypocrites. He deliberately associated himself with those that would follow Him and be His disciples. That is who He spent time with. He taught His disciples not to love the world, yet Christians today want to be like the world. Here is what the Bible teaches about associations:

    2Cor.6:14-17:
    14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?
    15 And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?
    16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
    17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,

    Don't be yoked together with unbelievers. Come out from among them and be separate. Touch not the unclean thing. Live lives of holiness. You can't live a holy life by imitating the music of Manson, whether it be the words (which are blasphemous at times), or the music (which is rebellious).

    The "simple concept" that many seem to have, that whatever music they may praise God with is acceptable to God, is not an acceptable premise. Does God set down standards regarding music in His Word, and if so what are they? Clearly, if you were a missionary to an African tribe, and the only type of clothing that either sex wore was some kind of loin cloth around the waist. otherwise they were all naked, would you not teach them that proper public worship of God ought to be done when modestly clothed, and not naked. "Oh but this is what I've done all along," they reply. "It's part of my culture" (just like rock). ‘It is a simple concept that whatever dress code you choose to worship God (even nude) is acceptable to God.' Does God set moral boundaries for the Christian? In the way he should dress? In the music he should listen to? In the kind of places he should frequent?

    1Pet.2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should show forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
    DHK
     
  13. Odemus

    Odemus New Member

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    You refuse to use Scripture to substantiate any of your claims.You put words in my mouth when I expressly stated they did not represent my position.This will be the last time I respond to you on this subject because as I said earlier, this argument is fruitless for as long as you try to make claims that Scripture does not allow.

    It doesn't apply to music, as I will show in this post. But let's look at 1 Corinthians a little closer. The situation was one of some Christians taking indecent liberties with food offered to idols. Paul's admonition was designed not to give Christians permission to do anything they pleased, with anything they pleased, but to reign them in lest they destroy those who had a conscience toward the food as an evil thing. "All things are lawful" was the rallying cry of wanton, over-permissive louts who cared more for their bellies than for the consciences of their brethren. This is immediately seen in the preceding verses where Paul is quite emphatic that we abstain from idolatry in all its forms, and in the succeeding verses in which he exhorts them not to seek their own good and fulfillment, but to seek the welfare of others.</font>[/QUOTE]
    You better well believe all means all.The Lord created it all and all of it belongs to Him (refer to the Genesis creation account).The universe and every natural and supernatural law that governs it are His creation and His creation alone-and none of it is evil, period, end of discussion.The only portion of God's creation which has the capacity for evil is that which was created last-man.

    God created man a sentient being with the ability to think and reason.We are able to explore the world to our hearts content. We can discover the natural laws that govern our existence and use them to make all kinds of amazing and wondrous inventions like the wheel, and clothes and cars and airplanes and sky scrapers and kitchen appliances.None of these things are created by man.They are all merely a manipulation of our environement and the laws that govern it which God created GOOD in the first place.None of them are inherently evil.A man can make a gun and use it to hunt wild game for sport or to provide for his family.He can also use that very same gun to murder someone.We see that the gun is an instrument that can be used to facilitate a very honorable action or a very dishonorable (and sinful) action.The sin of murder does not lie in the gun but in the man and more specifically, in the corrupt and sinful heart of the man. In the same way light, sound, and the laws that govern them are God's creation alone.We may learn to make new instruments or use a myriad of methods to study or manipulate sound and arrange it so as to turn it into a melody with rhythm, harmony and timbre.In short, we can use God's creation to make music.Since we know that when man is making music he is not actually creating anything but merely manipulating the natural laws of sound (in the same manner as one who manipulates the environement to make a gun) which God created, it logically follows that music cannot be inherently evil.You want to segment music into various categories and call some pleasing and some displeasing (and sinful) to God but the fact is that all sound and music are created by Him, not just selected parts.

    Paul exhorts us to do all that we do to the Glory of God.That means when I am at work I conduct myself in a manner which displays my love for God so that others may see Him in me.If I make toasters for a living then I maintain a positive work ethic and make the best darn toasters that I am capable of so that when my efforts are noticed I can point to Christ and say that "He is the standard by which I am accountable".If I am in customer service I do my best to communicate in a manner becoming of a Christian so that those I deal with may see the love of Jesus in me and be drawn to Him.

    If I am praising God in music and song that means I ask Him to orient my heart on Him and make my efforts able to glorify Him.

    Paul asks us to excersise abstaining from meat when it is brought to our attention that it has been offered to idols as a matter of conscience for those who would witness us eat it and assume we are in turn worshipping idols while professing the Gospel of Christ.The statement in verse 29 "for why is my freedom judged by another's conscience?" indicates he is aware that there is nothing inherently sinful about the meat itself, rather the sin would be to allow the misperceptions of others hinder their way to saving faith in Christ, or in the case of a brother or sister, hinder their faith in Christ.

    What Paul is saying is that meat is just meat plain and simple.If it was offered to an idol it doesn't become something else, it remains the same old hunk of meat.It doesn't get Jinxed, it doesn't get spiritual cooties, it stays a plain old hunk of meat.
    There is a thing called a cultural norm.For example, in many countries in Europe it is common among Christians to have a glass of wine or beer at every meal.Why? Because it doesn't pose a hinderance to their faith.They don't drink to the point of drunken debauchery, they simply have a glass of wine or beer to compliment their meal and provide a morally acceptable level of relaxation.Does the knowledge of this hinder your faith?

    In America the societal norm for alchohol is quite a bit different and my personal belief is that Christians should abstain from alcohol because it poses a conflict between the way Christians publicly lead their lives and the way the unsaved think we should.

    It all comes down to the manner in which your Christian walk is displayed and perceived by those in your home, work, and community.That is exactly what Paul is addressing.

    I never realized it until just recently but I should be thankful to God that the cultural norm among Christians in this country finds the music I listen to acceptable for worship of God.

    Ah,the familiar broken record of subjective opinion.One last time, provide scriptural evidence that music can be inherently good or evil.Oh, you mean you have to dodge the challenge once again and act as though it isn't blatantly obvious to anyone with a 5th grade reading comprehension?I thought so.Like I said, no Scriptural standards in a discussion of morality is fruitless.It is an excersise in futility.

    Music can and often does elicit aesthetic response in the listener.It is the nature of this response that is in question.I might be stirred to elation or profoundly overjoyed or saddened by a particular piece of music or perhaps I might just appreciate it's delicacy or technical wizardry while at the very same time, with or without my knowledge, the composer of that same piece of music may have been trying to express the passion of an adulterous affair or some other carnal fascination.Believe it or not such is the case with quite a bit of classical music.But guess what?I am never ever ever ever ever stirred to some sinful thought or deed by the music I listen to.

    If the sound of a saxaphone played in a certain way appears sultry to you and causes you to imagine steam filled bedrooms with seductive women dressed in lace and beckoning you to engage in sinful acts of lust and fornication where does the sin lie?With you or with the saxaphone?

    I can only speak from personal experience but I have a hunch that no such thing has ever happened to you from listening to any kind of music.

    I would probably agree with much of that research.I understand that plants respond quite well and can actually thrive when exposed to classical music and can be harmed by rock or heavy metal.I have heard that the contents of an egg placed in front of a speaker at a rock concert will solidify.Once again though, these things are physical responses and have nothing to do with this unscriptural argument of yours that certain types of music can be considered inherently evil.

    As far as something sounding sad to a tribesman in South America which sounds sad to me, that is most definately not universal.As I stated previously try listening to some music of the middle or far east and you will be dumbfounded by some of the emotions they try to communicate.Although that has nothing to do with morality in music it certainly is interesting.

    I'll take them one by one:

    Matt. 15:18 But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.
    A statement again about the inability of elemental things to defile [a man's soul]. In this case meats or the dirt that might be on one's hands before he eats. One deluded soul tried to extend this to also mean that nothing entering the eyes or ears can defile a man. Yet do we not constantly guard the viewing of our children? Do we not jealously guard what might enter thier ears? "Be not deceived, evil communications corrupt good manners," 1 Cor. 15:33.

    Matt. 15:19For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies.... Of course. I have no argument with this. But this the continuation of the thought expressed in vs 18, and I've already dealt with that.

    Matt. 7:21-2321 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
    22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
    23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

    I, of course, have no argument here either, but wondering where you're going with this. :confused:
    [/QUOTE]
    That's odd, every version of the Bible I have says "bad company corrupts good morals" but whatever, even if your quote was a literal translation (which I highly doubt), you still have not once produced a single shred of scriptural evidence that certain music can be considered inherently evil.

    I can only assume from past experience in communicating with you that you haven't payed much attention to what I have said so far.I ask that you do so now.

    Sin is conceived in the heart.Out of the heart come evil thoughts.Sin is revealed (that is made evident or visible) by our words and deeds.some examples? Murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies.Nowhere in the Bible is there an example of sin being revealed in music.

    You haven't presented one single bit of scriptural evidence to support your theory that music can be inherently sinful.

    God created music, not man.God created the laws that govern it, not man.God's creation is good. Although man can twist His creation and use it for evil that never ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever no, not ever makes God's creation inherently sinful.

    One last illustration.If the English language didn't contain the F word (yes the vulgar 4 letter one), would the F word be sinful?How could someone know to connect the verbal pronunciation of the F word with what we understand it to mean if there were no such word in the English language?One could go around saying the F word all day and all night and no one would have the slightest idea what they were trying to communicate.So is the F word inherently evil or is it the sinful thought being communicated through it?It always goes back to the heart.

    People verbalize and communicate sinful thoughts through an established culturally universal language.Not by playing an instrument.While I suppose it is possible for some people to be aroused to sinful desires from listening to music (remember, we're not talking about lyrics), you cannot say that the music itself is evil because you cannot prove that this is a universal reaction (there certainly is no scriptural standard for such a thing).I know that I have never heard any music at all that sparked sinful desire in me, and I don't think I'm all that unique in this area.

    Sin is conceived in the heart and turns into evil thoughts.Sin is made evident by our words and deeds.Pretty basic stuff Aaron.

    Yours in Christ,

    Jacob

    [ June 29, 2002, 08:57 AM: Message edited by: Odemus ]
     
  14. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    In the Exodus incident, when they waited for Moses to come down from the Mount, the made for themselves a golden calf and danced around it naked. It was the music that they played that caused them to work themselves up into a frenzied orgy, that got Moses so angry. It was not just the idolatry itself, it was the extreme to which they had gone: the music, the fornication, etc. What was the contributing factor of the music? A whole lot. What was the contributing factor of all the fornication and evil doing at Woodstock? It was the music of course. The nature of some music is inherently sinful in and of itself.
    DHK
     
  15. Odemus

    Odemus New Member

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    Where does God show His anger at music?It is their words and deeds that have been judged!

    As Moses went down from the mountain in verse 18 of the same chapter he says:
    Assuming the Isrealites were playing instruments to accompany their singing, the sin was in the message of their singing itself.Or do you believe that if you were to hear whatever music they might have been playing that you could identify it as inherently sinful?Certainly music can act as a conduit through which people express sinful desires but the sin itself is only in the desires of the heart, and the deeds that are carried out as a result.Not the playing of instruments!

    No, it was their corrupt, impatient and unbelieveing hearts that caused them to sin!

    There is no question that worldly rock and roll contributes to sin!That is because the music facilitates a message of sin.But any kind of music can be used to facilitate a message of sin, that doesn't make the music evil, it makes the message evil.Regardless, this discussion has been about music itself without singing.

    Book, chapter, verse. Anything less is subjective opinion.
     
  16. Matticus

    Matticus New Member

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    Thanks Odemus, you're taking the words out of my mouth and make them sound much better.

    God Bless
    Matt
     
  17. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    Obviously false to the most casual observer.


    I make no claims of the sort. But it's probably best that you abstain from responding since an inordinate amount of time and energy must be spent correcting your hermeneutical and rhetorical offenses on some pretty basic stuff. That leaves little time and space to deal with the topic at hand.

    Your difficulty with the topic is a fundamental misapprehension of the nature and function of music. You talk of music like you could pluck it from a tree. But as I said in my last post, music is of a different nature than food and drink or any other corporeal object. Music is communication. It is interaction, and the Scriptural admonitions concerning the manner and style of our communication eminently and directly apply to music. So just take your pick.

    But music is not the only thing you are confused about, as is evident in your last post, you are also confused about the nature of good, evil, and man.

    Another difficulty you have is an inconsistent hermeneutic. This is usually the case when the Scriptures are approached with presuppositions. For example, you again quote 1 Cor. 10:26 and insist that in this passage "you better will believe all means all," yet earlier when trying to make the case that "all things are lawful", you state that all doesn't mean all. So naturally the question arises, how do you know when all means all and when it doesn't?

    The term "fulness" is a better translation in my opinion, for it is widely known that the earth contains abominations, anti-Christs, profane and evil communications--none of which could be classified as "fulness" or a "fulfilling of the earth" or as "belonging" to God.

    As I said in my last post (maybe you didn't read it carefully) the statement, "For the earth is the Lord's and the fulness thereof," was not uttered to give us freedom to do anything we want. Paul's use was to put wantonness in check. "The earth is the Lord's, therefore, it is not yours to do with as you wish. You do not have the right to defile the conscience of a weaker brother. You must walk in love glorifying God by defering to his conscience." But Paul is not speaking of non-corporeal things here, as I said before. Yet if you insist that he is, then you have taken a heavier yoke upon yourself then ever I could impose upon you concerning music. You may want to abandon your reasoning if you wish to persist in justifying sensual forms of worship.

    In the verbage beginning "God created man a sentient being..." and ending with "...not just selected parts," you again treat music as if it is a corporeal object that can be passed unchanged from one man to another. But as I have said repeatedly (maybe it will sink in), music is not corporeal, and though you may analyze its composition as individual elements, (e.g. melody, rhythm, tone quality, etc.) music is more than the sum of its parts. One may similarly break down a sensual photograph or painting. No one will argue that the individual forms and elements are of themselves evil, but the message it is sending is a product of their convergence. It is an evil communication. It is the same with music. The elements can be combined to form a good composition or an evil one.

    Pretty basic stuff.

    Odemus then says meat is not evil in an of itself. I never disputed that and so I wonder what he's getting at. I said eating meat as a thing offered to an idol was an evil thing to do, but then that's just what Paul said:
    So I'm not really sure where you were going with that, but we'll skip it in the interest of space.

    Hog wash.

    Paul is not addressing cultural norms at all. (And you accuse me of making un-Scriptural assertions?) Paul is instructing us how to conduct ourselves in relation to the conscience of a weaker brother. "But when ye sin so against the brethren, and wound their weak conscience, ye sin against Christ. "Wherefore, if meat make my brother to offend, I will eat no flesh while the world standeth, lest I make my brother to offend." You're really reachin' to find "cultural norm" in there.

    Like I said above, "Music is communication. It is interaction, and the Scriptural admonitions concerning the manner and style of our communication eminently and directly apply to music. So just take your pick."

    But the Scriptures need not describe sensual music. The Scriptures say that God hates a proud look (Prov. 6:17), yet I find no description therein of what a proud look looks like. Nothing at all of the sort. All but brute beasts know a proud look when they see one, and until recently all but brute beasts knew sensual music when they heard it. The secular perveyors of sensual music still know it, and know it rakes in the dough. Funny how that music of a non-sensual nature is cheap in the stores, but you pay big bucks for rock.

    But God expects me to examine the fruits of many things He may not be explicit about to discern their godliness, Matt. 7:16-20, and James 3:17. I don't have to show you a verse that says "This rhythm is evil" or "That rhythm is good." I will show you it's fruit. You may not demand more of me than God requires.

    The sin lies in the performer. It matters not if you believe our reactions to music are subjective or not. Paul is emphatic that anyone who awakens sensual apetites in another is in big trouble, 1 Thessalonians 4:6. But a style that can be described as sultry is sultry.. Your assumption that our responses to music are culturally conditioned is completely false. Their is no musicologist that could seriously suggest it. All (and I mean all) the evidence shows quite the opposite. In fact, that argument first appeared in the late 70's when counter-culture Christians began forcing their debauchery upon American churches.

    Why are you talking about plants and chicken eggs when I expressly said the aesthetic effects are well documented? I'm not talking about Jr. High science fair projects. I'm talking about professional, university studies.

    Tell me, how does one keep company without communication, verbal or non-verbal? Do you think an evil man's mere physical presence will corrupt you? It's his communication.

    Now, concerning your F-word example.. :rolleyes:

    Again I am compelled to repeat myself for the sake of one dull of hearing. Didn't I say it is not the mere physical excitement of air molecules that makes music good or evil, it is the message that music communicates? Ah yes. When I scroll up the page and read my last post I see that I did indeed say that. To someone who doesn't kow or understand English, any English word is just noise. And if someone merely blasts a trumpet without making a distinction in the sounds, that too is just noise. But here is where your example fails.

    No one has to learn music to enjoy or understand the mood being communicated. Infants don't have to be taught that Brahm's Lullaby is intended to put them to sleep. And consider the case of Mrs. R:
    Now, I am weary of your multi-topic leap-frog debate techinques. If you want to make demands of me, we can dialogue in the one on one debate forum. I'll let you pick the topic. But we'll stick to that one topic you'll be surprised at the evidence I do have.

    [ June 30, 2002, 12:09 AM: Message edited by: Aaron ]
     
  18. Mike McK

    Mike McK New Member

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    I'd be surprised if you had evidence, too.

    Mike
     
  19. Matticus

    Matticus New Member

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    But God expects me to examine the fruits of many things He may not be explicit about to discern their godliness, Matt. 7:16-20, and James 3:17. I don't have to show you a verse that says "This rhythm is evil" or "That rhythm is good." I will show you it's fruit. You may not demand more of me than God requires.

    Well, if God expects you to examine the fruits, you had better examine the fruits. The fruits I see coming from christian music are excellten. Lots of people are coming to Christ! You cannot say the fruits of christian rock and hip hop etc are bad. This music is bringing so many people to Christ! If you think bringing people to Christ is a bad fruit, then maybe you just don't know what you're talking about anymore.

    God Bless
    Matt
     
  20. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    No, a conversion only comes from a hearing of the Word of God. Conversions do not presume the sanctity of the vehicle.

    Judas Iscariot is one prime example. He preached the Gospel, he cast out devils and wrought miracles, but he was the son of perdition.

    That being said, though fragments of God's word is framed in sensuality, never ever assume that a conversion is the basis of anything than the preaching of the Gospel.

    But I must look closer at this so-called fruit, and I find souls entrenched in sensuality, though they claim to be Christian, not walking in love, but wantonness.

    Sorry bud. The truth hurts.
     
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