The Rapture....

Dr. Berrian, neither of those passages even mention the tribulation.

Brian

 

Hi Alex, have you ever noticed the following:

2 Thess 2:8 says when the Lord comes, he will destroy the antichrist with his "epiphaneia". An epiphaneia is defined as appearing in a glorious manifestation, and is the basis for the English word "Epiphany". There are only two talked about in scripture: one happened when Christ was born, and one will happen when he returns to destroy the antichrist. A vision, etc, is not an epiphaneia (e.g. John's vision or Paul's conversion).

If we look for other instances of "epiphaneia" in the NT, we find that the church is be unrebukable until the epiphaneia (1 Tim 6:14), Christ will judge the living and the dead at his epiphaneia (2 Tim 4:1), the Lord will give a crown to all those who love his epiphanea (2 Tim 4:8), and most telling of all: we are to be looking for it (Titus 2:13).

Brian

 

Off the top of my head, I can think Daniel 9, Matthew 24, Luke, Rev, 2 Thess.

The Holy Spirit is taken out in the form of the church (which is indwelt) leaving. The passage in 2 Thess could very well have reference to the church. In any case, the Holy Spirit will still be doing his work on individuals for the very reason you mention above.

Try "The Revelation of Jesus Christ" and various places in both the Gospels and the Epistles. You must remember that Jesus was talking to Jews in a Jewish context, not in a church context. In Rev 3:10 he says that the church will be taken out of the tribulation.

Christopher, All of these questions, plus many more can be answered in numerous published works which can give a much better and fuller explanation of them than is possible in this limited forum. For instance, I have Pentecost's "Things to Come" open here browsing through it seeing many places in a 600 page book where your questions are addressed. My encouragement would be that if you are serious about answers to these question, get ahold of a book such as this and study it.

I would suggest Pentecost and Alva McClain's "The Greatness of the Kingdom" as two places to start on your study.

To be honest, it is hard to believe that you have such a solid opinion on these matters as you seem to communicate here while you are still asking these basic questions. These are questions I would expect from someone who is new to the subject. It seems that either 1) you are looking to try to trap someone who doesn't know their position that well or 2) you hold an opinion because you have been told it rather than studying it out. You seem very well convinced, even antagonistic, towards those who disagree with you. Yet your questions here seem to indicate that you have not even studied the biblical evidence for the position you hate so much. I appreciate your questions though and am glad to give answers as I have time.

Regardless, I would encourage you to pursue these two books for starters and then pursue some of the others available such as Ryrie's "Dispensationalism" and Shower's "There Really Is A Difference." Both books demonstrate the superiority of dispensationalism over its rivals.

 

It is frankly and freely admitted by amils that the basic issue in the controversy between premils and themselves is the issue of the method of interpretation to be employed in the interpretation of prophecy.Allis says,"the question of literal vs figurative interpretation is,therefore,one which has to be faced at the very outset.He admits that if the literal method of interpretation of the Scriptures be the right method, premil is the correct interpretation.Thus we can see that our doctrine of the premil return of Christ to institute a literal kingdom is the outcome of the literal method of interpretation of the O.T. promises and prophecies.It is only natural,therefore,that the same basic method of interpretation must be employed in our interpretation of the rapture question.It would be most illogical to build a premil system on a literal method and then depart from that method in consideration of the related questions.It can easily be seen that the literal method of interpretation demands a pretrib rapture of the church.The post trib position must either interpret the book of Rev. historically,which is basically a spiritualizing method,or else treat it as yet future,but spiritualize away the literalness of the events in an attempt to harmonize these events with other Scriptures in the light of his interpretation.Either explanation violates the principle of literal interpretation.There cannot be one method employed to establish the premil position and another method employed in the interpretation of the rapture promises.The literal method of interpretation,consistantly employed,can lead to no other conclusion than that the church will be raptured before the 70th week." Oswald T.Allis,Prophecy and the Church,p.17

 

I am a preterist...don't believe in a rapture.

Joseph Botwinick

 

[Rev. 20:5] But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. [6] Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

The first resurrection is the, what you all would call it, the "rapture." If there were another resurrection before this one it couldn't be called the first resurrection, now could it?

-Chris

 

Time for me to jump in. I am an historic premillennialist (Chiliast). I believe there are clearly two resurrections, one for the just and one for the unjust. Revelation 20:4-5 makes that abundantly clear.

I also believe the bible refers to the first resurrection as a "harvest." The first resurrection follows the Jewish harvest in that it is in three phases. The First Fruits (the Lord Jesus Christ Acts 26.23; Rev 1.5), then the Main Harvest (the great body of the saints, "we which are alive and remain" 1 Thess 4:15, 17), and finally the last phase of the harvest, the gleanings (tribulation saints, Rev 14). One resurrection, the first, in three phases, just like the Jewish harvest used to illustrate it, and another resurrection unto judgement and the lake of fire.

 

When does this "Main Harvest" take place? Before the Tribulation or after it? This sounds inconsistent with historic premillennialism but perhaps I am misunderstanding you.

 

Many passages in the N.T. such as Eph.3:1-6;Col.1:25-27 make it clear that the church is a mystery and its nature as a body composed of Jew and Gentile alike was unrevealed in the O.T.,the church could not have been in view in this or any other O.T. prophecy.Since the church did not have its existence until after the death of Christ,Eph.5:25-26,until after the resurrection of Christ Rom.4:25;Col.3:1-3,until after the ascension Eph.1:19-20,and until after the descent of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost with the inception of all His ministries to the believer Acts 2,the church could not have been in the first 69 weeks of this prophecy.And since it had no part in the first 69 weeks, which are related only to God's program for Israel,it can have no part in the 70th week,which is again related to God's program for Israel after the mystery program for the church has been concluded. Wm. Kelly,in his Lectures on the second coming of the Lord Jesus says on pp.186-237"In an extended treatment of each major passage in the Word on the subject of the tribulation,dealing with passages such as Mt.24,Dan.12,Lk.21,Mk.13,Jer.30,Rev.7;the view here maintained follows on a close investigation of every distinct passage that Scripture affords upon the subject of the Great Tribulation.I should be obliged to anyone who will produce me other passages that refer to it;but I am not aware of them. I demand of those,whether they can point out one word which supposes a Christian or the church on the earth when the Great Tribulation arrives?Have we not seen that the doctrine of the O.T and the N.T.-of Jeremiah ,of Daniel,of the Lord Jesus,and of the apostle John-is this,that,just before the Lord appears in glory,will come the last and unequalled trouble of Israel,though Jacob shall be delivered from it;that there will be..."the Great Tribulation," out of which a multitude of Gentiles emerge;but that both Jacob and the Gentiles are totally distinct from the Christians or the church.As regards the Christian,the positive promise of the Lord is,that such as has kept the Word of His patience He will keep out of the hour of trial,which is about to come upon the whole habitable world,to try them that dwell upon the earth." It must be concluded with the above author,since every passage dealing with the tribulation relates it to God's program for Israel,that the scope of the tribulation prevents the church from participating in it.

 

I combine some of the tenets of Covenantal Premillennialism with some of the less egregious elements of Dispensational Premillennialism. The textbook we used in Seminary was by J. Barton Payne so that should explain a lot!

I don't see the history of soteriology divided into separate compartments culmininating with the present "age of grace." Every age has been an age of grace! Every person ever saved was, is, and will be, saved by grace alone. The popular Scofieldian dispensationalism is, in my opinion, more than slightly confused.

I see the main harvest as being pre-tribulational. I believe the saints will be caught up to be with the Lord in the air soon after the arrival of the Anti-Christ on the scene. But that catching away is so soon that, for all intents and purposes I am pre-trib.

I agree with Papias, Irenaeus, Justin Martyr, Tertullian, Hippolytus, Methodius, Commodianus, Lactanitus, and others that the Antichrist first appears on earth and the seven year Tribulation begins. Next comes the Rapture. Christ and his saints return to earth to rule for a Millennium. So, in that sense, I am an historic premillennialist.

There is today a revisionist form of Historic Premillennialism that denies the rapture completely, but that is not true historic chiliasm. The above cited patristics believed in a rapture.

 

Yet none of those church fathers (that I am aware of) placed the rapture at the start of the trib, but rather that the antichrist would then persecute the church. I would be most interested in any references to the contrary. Similarly, earlier in the thread you said:

"A book written in 1677 outlines the pre trib position exactly as it is taught by most dispensationalists today. Quotes from the patristics support a pre trib rapture as early as the late 3rd century."

Perhaps you missed my request, but I was hoping you could please provide more information about this 1677 book and the 3rd century quotes. I would be most interested in references to these quotes, and most surprised if these quotes stood up to scrutiny.

Brian

 

Ah yes ... interesting to be sure. I have read some of him and found that he seems to employ an inconsistent hermeneutic. While in places he argues for a single intent construct, in other places he seems to deny it.

Agreed to be sure.

Interested on what basis you see the Rapture "soon after" the arrival of AntiChrist.

Didn't some of these see the rapture at the end of the Tribulation though?

 

BrianT,

You are right. I was pointing to the fact that Jesus will come at His Second Advent/rapture, when He takes His church to His heavenly abode. This is what these references--referred to in my writing.

Dr. Berrian

 

How do these verses require that the rapture be before the tribulation?

While the Bible shows Christians in the tribulation (Revelation 6:11, 7:3, 7:14, 9:4, 12:17, 13:7-10, 14:12-13, 15:2, 20:4), note that it doesn't expressly show anyone repenting during the tribulation. In fact, it repeatedly says the unbelievers "repented not" (Revelation 9:20-21, 16:9-11), and Paul says that at some point in the tribulation "God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness" (2 Thessalonians 2:11-12). It's possible the Christians we see in the tribulation were saved before the tribulation began, for nowhere does Jesus promise us a rapture before the tribulation.

Lest any unbelievers get complacent and think "Oh, when I see all that Antichrist stuff then I'll repent and believe," I think we should warn them: "Then it may be too late; God is going to send a strong delusion (2 Thessalonians 2:11) on all those who rejected the gospel. Today is the day of salvation. You may not get another chance to believe."

Some believe Revelation 14:13 means that Christians in the tribulation will be saved only by dying. But is this what the verse itself says? If they are saved ("in the Lord") before they die, then they don't HAVE to die in order to be saved. Do some believe that people who die unsaved can be saved after death? Do they apply a saved-only-by-dying standard to those in Revelation 2:10 also? If not, why not?

Note that it doesn't show the "great multitude" that "came out of great tribulation" (Revelation 7:9, 14) getting saved during the tribulation. It's possible they were saved before the tribulation began. I believe they will be those of us Christians who will enter the tribulation and die in a nuclear war and attendant famine of the 2nd through 4th seals, and in the persecution of the 5th seal, which occur in the chapter just prior (Revelation 6).

I believe they show that people can "obtain salvation" and enter into the great tribulation without being "appointed to the wrath" of 1 Thessalonians 5:9.

"The Son of man coming in the clouds... with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect" (Matthew 24:30-31).

Note that in no scripture are we promised a rapture before the tribulation. Jesus said he would come to gather us together "immediately after the tribulation" (Matthew 24:29-31), and Paul said Jesus' coming to gather us together must "destroy" the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:1-8).

Most Christians believe it will be 7 years. But I don't believe the Bible itself says this, and that Daniel 9:27 only refers to a 7-year peace treaty.

I believe Daniel 11:23 refers to this same treaty, and that the great Middle East war of Daniel 11:13-19 has to happen before this treaty is signed. I expect this war to begin about 3 years before the treaty, so that the tribulation could last about 10 years. This war could be the 2nd seal in Revelation 6:3-4, beginning the tribulation.

A 10-year tribulation may be typified in Revelation 2:10, where Jesus says "ye shall have tribulation 10 days," and in Daniel 1:14, where Daniel was "proved for 10 days." I believe each day could stand for a year, as in Ezekiel 4:6, where God says "I have appointed thee each day for a year," and in Numbers 14:34, where he says "each day for a year."

I don't believe the one holding back the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:7-8) can be the church because many Christians will still be on the earth during the Antichrist’s rule (Revelation 13:7-10, 14:12-13), and there are no Christians outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-6).

In 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, I believe Paul makes clear that the apostasy and abomination of desolation must occur before the day Jesus comes to gather us together, for Jesus' coming to gather us together must destroy the Antichrist (verse 8). I believe Paul is referring to the same coming and gathering together as Matthew 24:29-31. I don't believe Paul taught a 3rd coming or a 2nd rapture.

In Revelation 3:10, Jesus was addressing only the church at Philadelphia, not the entire church. I don't believe Revelation 3:10 even requires a pre-trib rapture. I believe some of us in the church with "little strength" (Revelation 3:8) could be kept from temptation and trial (Revelation 3:10) by dying before the tribulation begins (compare Isaiah 57:1), others by fleeing to a place prepared in the wilderness (Revelation 12:6), where we will be protected from harm (Revelation 12:14-16). There must be a remnant of us who are still "alive and remain" at the end of the tribulation when Jesus comes to gather us together (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17, Mark 13:26-27).

We find Christians referred to throughout Revelation (6:11, 7:3, 7:14, 12:17, 13:7-10, 14:1-4, 14:12-13, 15:2, 20:4). There can be no Christians outside of the church, for "there is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith" (Ephesians 4:4-5), which body is the church: "the church, which is his body" (Ephesians 1:22-23).

I believe the resurrection and changing of all Christians into their immortal bodies will occur at a single point in time, at the "last trump" (1 Corinthians 15:52), at the 2nd coming of Christ (1 Corinthians 15:23), and that this is why it says "the first resurrection" will also include all of us Christians who will die in the tribulation (Revelation 20:4-5).

I believe we will be caught up to meet Jesus in the clouds on his way down to set his feet on the earth. 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 doesn't show Jesus returning to heaven. There's no 3rd coming of Christ.

http://www.geocities.com/postrib

 

Amen to that!

 

Chris Temple,

I Thess. 4:17 doesn't express the fact that Jesus is taking us to Heaven, but in John 14:2 does add this feature that you don't care to accept.

Where do you think the 'Father's house' is located? Where do you think the 'many mansions are located?

a. Hell
b. Purgatory
c. Heaven

We will trust that you find the correct answer.

Dr. Berrian

 

Actually, John 14:2 doesn't mention heaven either. It says (with verse 3)

"In my Father's house are many mansions: if [it were] not [so], I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. [3] And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, [there] ye may be also."

Notice especially verse 3: he will come again, and then we will be with him. If this is referring to a post trib coming, we will still be with him, and will receive the place he prepares for us in his kingdom. There is nothing here that doesn't fit with posttrib.

 

So the place he is preparing for us is here on earth?????

If he goes to prepare a place for us and then comes to take us where he is (preparing a place for us) then it can hardly be a return to earth since Christ (to my knowledge) is not here preparing a place for us.

 

Do you think the Father lives in a house? Heaven is where God is. In the eternal state, heaven will be on the New Earth where believers will reign with Christ forever.

Romans 8:19 For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God.
20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope;
21 because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
22 For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now.
23 Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body.
24 For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees?
25 But if we hope for what we do not see, we eagerly wait for it with perseverance.

Isaiah 65:17 "For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth; And the former shall not be remembered or come to mind.

Isaiah 66:22 "For as the new heavens and the new earth Which I will make shall remain before Me," says the LORD, "So shall your descendants and your name remain.

2 Peter 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.

Revelation 21:1 Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea.
2 Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, "Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God.
4 "And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away."
5 Then He who sat on the throne said, "Behold, I make all things new." And He said to me, "Write, for these words are true and faithful."

 

Pastor Larry,

Excellent point. I have seen some mansions in our area, but apparently you have to have $300,000 to purchase them. The mansions that Christ is preparing, I understand, are free and ready when we go to be with Him. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Dr. Berrian