Rick Warren, market-driven church, and being all things to all people...

Scott,

Your post reveals what you yourself admit: you are unfamiliar with Warren and his methods, therefore we will take everything you say with a big dose of Morton's

 

Scott,Those are the same concerns I have,but you stated it much better than I could!

SBC,Remember back a couple of weeks to the thread where I did give specific quotes from the book with scripture to contradict them? You are ignoring what I have stated and saying I have not done what you say I should do....! I have given scripture and evidence. You just don't accept what I have said.

 

Also,being loving and caring towards sinners has nothing to do with how one conducts himself in the house of God,which is to be the pillar and support of Truth.The church is to be like nothing else on Earth,a little of heaven on Earth...we can love sinners by showing them their need for a saviour and their sin,not how to have fun at church. If we truly care about sinners,we will show them God's ways,not entice with the world's ways. Love does not mean accepting sin. In fact,if we truly love these people who need the Lord,we should be only about sharing God's word with them.(The only answer,by the way) Making them feel good about themselves or making church appeal to them can be detrimental to them in the long run. Remember Jesus said go and sin no more. Yes,we can be loving and biblical at the same time. It is called balance.

 

I am unfamiliar with Warren but familiar with the posts on this forum, including yours.

In general terms, what I have seen from Warren supporters is that the ends justify the means- if the methods work to get unbelievers in church and exposed to the gospel then why question the methods.

On the other side, I see traditionalism as a danger as well. Tradition has snuffed out just as many good ministries as liberalism.

Admittedly, the term "seeker sensitive" makes my red flags go up. Man is not central. The purpose of creation is not man's salvation much less his entertainment. The purpose of creation is to glorify God. We are commanded to do things His way and let Him see to the results.

With regard to sensitivity, yes we should be sensitive to the needs of the lost, BUT not sympathetic to their position. I am not making accusations toward Warren in particular however I have a great deal of concern when churches start adopting aspects of the worldly lifestyle on the pretense of reaching the lost... or doing anything else in the name of God for that matter.

If this fits Warren, so be it. If not, then don't apply it to him.

[ November 11, 2002, 03:01 PM: Message edited by: Scott J ]

 

It does fit Warren....we have read the book 3-4 times trying to have an open mind,and we just can't see the high view of God,but instead the view that the gospel is man-centered and man can attract men to the gospel through wordly means. We,personally,can not support such teaching.

Scott,

Your insight is greatly appreciated,not because you agree with me ,but I can see your attitude towards God and glorifying Him....that I can appreciate!

 

Which thread was that? I have defended Warren in a few threads, so I am unsure which one it was exactly.

Based upon your assertions here, can you provide the following:

1. Scriptural support for your statements

2. Examples where Warren in primarily concerned with sinners having "fun" at church.

3. Examples where Warren is enticing sinners with unbiblical ways.

4. Examples where Warren is accepting of sin.

5. Biblical support for your assertion that making sinners "feel good" (which is a faulty generalization to begin with) is detrimental to them. Even in your "go and sin no more" example, Jesus made the woman caught in adultery feel like a real person (unlike the Pharisees who brought her). Jesus was not picking up the stone of judgment but He was ministering to her on a level that confounded the traditional method of his day.

You are exactly right, balance is the key.

Methods that are shown to be unbiblical can rightfully be questioned. That has yet to happen in this discussion. Lots of accusations -- no biblical support.

I can agree with this Piperistic definition of man's purpose. I would simply add that worship is not the ONLY reason we exist. And just for the fun of it, could you offer some biblical support for your assertions here.

I pray I never lose my sympathy for the unbeliever's position. Guess what? I was in that same position at one time.

Again one needs to define "adopting aspects of the worldly lifestyle on the pretense of reaching the lost." Are you suggesting we should do everything opposite the world does in our ministries?

 

Molly:

I am going to assume that by these words you DO NOT MEAN:

a) Rick Warren or those who follow Warren's philosophy of ministry do not have a high view of God.

OR

b)Rick Warren or those who follow his method do not have a desire to glorify God.

Again such a "my opinion is the right one therefore I am more spiritual than you" attitude is very inappropriate and judgmental.

 

Do not be conformed to this world....be holy,as I am holy.....he has sanctified(set us apart) us....

It was the thread where we first met....don't you remember? It was the other recent one...I looked and it was not on the main fundy page anymore...I gave some specific problems with the book and you basically made fun of me. It was a great first meeting!

 

I am not saying anyone is not glorifying God,I am speaking to what the book teaches in general.

 

Verse One: Do you honestly feel this verse has to do with what methods should be employed in sharing the gospel or worshipping God? If so, you had better make sure your church has no pianos, air-conditioning, or any other "worldly" methods.

Verse two: Are you suggesting methods different than yours are "unholy"? If so, please define your standards of holiness so we can all line up with them. Holiness in primarily internal. It is God conforming me to His reality/nature/essence (He is holy in His very essence, not based upon His outward actions primarily). Holiness has very little to do with whether I chose to worship by a praise chorus or a hymn and everything to do with my heart being shaped to Christ-likeness.

Verse three: No problems with this verse. We have been set apart. Of course the primary interpretation of this verse has to do with my position before God and not a "I am different than you" type setting apart.

BTW, if I made fun of you I apologize. I sometimes get aggravated at straw men or a misrepresentation of someone just because I have different preferences.

 

All I am saying with those verses is that God has saved us and made us internally right before Him,yes,but also,that should affect every aspect of our life to be holy and set apart from the patterns of the world. Our homes should be different than unbelievers,our churches should be set apart from the patterns of the world. In fact, everything we are should refelct the holiness of God,that way people have a true representation of who God is. When we are patterned after the world it shows a life unchanged and therefore unaffected by the cross of Christ and what He did for us.

I think one thing I see msiing in Rick's book is the fear of the Lord. That is such a huge part of a christian's walk,to live in awe with a healthy dread of who God actually is...we make things so appealling and God such a great pal,that we have lost respect for the holiness of God. It refects in the way our churches look and act.

About music,yes,I also think there are songs more holier and glorifying in words and style. So,that should match as well. That is an issue for the music forum...

BTW,where is Preach the Word? He started this topic and then went on vacation ....I would like to hear his biblical account on this issue....

 

You are arguing against a point I wasn't making. Let me rephrase. We should not be sympathetic with the unbelievers world view, mind set, cravings, etc. This is what I meant by position (like a candidates position on an issue), not their status of being lost. I was lost once as well which is why I qualified my statement by saying that we should be sensitive (pity) but not sympathetic (which denotes a degree of agreement).

Opposite? Absolutely not. Separate, yes. I am suggesting that we should not arbitrarily follow the world's trends in music, dress, style, behaviour, .... nor methods.

Salvation is not some kind of self-help plan. I listened to a tape from the church of the second man I mentioned above. Included in the service was the testimony of a young "seeker" who after several weeks had not decided yet if she wanted to become a Christian. In other words, she didn't know if there were enough benefits to offset the costs. The pastor lauded her for her careful and deliberate consideration. If I am not mistaken, this church is an off-shoot of Willow Creek. Are they related or similar to Saddleback?

 

Preach the Word,

So glad you could join us.

 

Psalms 19:1-4, I Corinthians 10:31, Psalms 46:10, Psalms 57:11, Psalms 104:31, Matthew 6:13, John 12:28, John 14:13, Romans 11:36, II Corinthians 1:20, II Corinthians 4:15, Philippians 1:11, Philippians 2:11, Jude 25, Revelation 4:11

Now, just for the fun of it, can you cite scripture that supports the notion of using gimmicks to attract lost people into the church so that the gospel can be slipped in to them? And while you are at it, please address PTW's charge that they ignore the price of faith and the implications of genuine repentance.

 

These are great texts that DECLARE God's glory (most of them). None of them indicate that it is the church's sole purpose to glorify God (I am not saying it is or is not, I am simply saying these verses do not say so). I Cor 10.31 comes the closest, but taken in its context, one cannot argue that in this verse Paul is saying the primary purpose of the church is to bring glory to God. It is directed to individuals and the context is not dealing with the "why" question. (Why does the church exist?)

Again, I am not saying worship is not one of our primary purposes. I believe it is. The Great Command is worship-oriented: Love God supremely. I just grow tired of hearing certain circles repeat the Westminster catechism and not providing a biblical basis for their assertion. If you would like to try again or elaborate on some of these verses, we can go from there.

Since by your own admission, you know little to nothing about Warren, I will take this statement as merely a reflection of your self-admitted lack of knowledge.

 

Extreme, extreme case of oranges and apples. Based upon your argument (anyone can craft Scripture), we must eliminate anyone and everyone. I could say Piper, Warren, Swindoll, MacArthur, or ??????? (you fill in the blank) use their own interpretation of Scripture to support their opinions and practices.

If you want to show us where Warren's exegesis is flawed or lacking, then we can deal with your gripes. But please don't try and patronize me with this feeble and extreme oranges-apples comparison.

When you show us "unbiblical" examples of how he carries them out, then we can talk. I am just glad someone finally admitted the 5 purposes are biblical. Do you have a basis for your statement that Warren in only giving "lip service" to the fundamentals of the faith? If not, this might be a case of holy slander .

Exactly. This is the same method Warren adopts. No one has shown in any fashion that Warren has "compromised the gospel" (or should I use the term lip service). These are strong accusations against someone for not showing any evidence or proof .

1. Not focusing upon the right or wrong of whether the Sun AM service is for evangelism or not, would you agree that if an unbeliever comes to church, Sun AM will probably be the service he/she attends?

2. Can you point me to that prescribed order of worship in the Pastorals? I am wondering where to put our two hymns and a chorus for Sunday .

3. Are you suggesting a church should be unconcerned about the needs of the community around them?

4. Can you provide examples of where Warren's creativity has turned into rebellion against God?

So we should not approach people with the idea that they can have a "personal relationship with the Creator"? I thought that was what salvation was all about -- a relationship with God through Christ. I must have misread much of John's Gospel. I had better go back and locate that "cost of discipleship" portion of Jesus' discussion with Nicodemus, the woman at the well, Baritmaeus, and the woman caught in adultery.

I have never read or heard where Warren indicates that the cold hard facts are unimportant. As a matter of fact, it is much more difficult to become a member of Warren's church than it is the average "we don't use methods" church.

Warren makes it clear that his primary aim is to make DISCIPLES. He preaches for LIFE CHANGE. These accusations are simply unwarranted. Provide some facts and then we can deal with your assumptions.

I hope the development is better than this first attempt

[ November 12, 2002, 04:09 PM: Message edited by: SBCbyGRACE ]

 

SBC,My buddy,my pal....

One thing I know Saddleback did was had a survey to ask people what they wanted in a church,kind of music,preaching styles,programs,etc. They targeted these surveys to people not attending church,non-believers,I am guessing...anyway,from that survey and others like it,they established some church ideas and principles on how to *do* church.

Okay,let's see if I am getting this....don't approach God's word,but we will throw some in...(later)just see what people,who are not even believer's,want church to be and let's base things on these premises....let's throw in some of the gospel,here and there....don't want to get too heavy ....add some great sounding music,maybe even a band ...the louder the better(the book says this) ....add a few classes on how to potty train your child,maybe parenting,mainly psycho lessons....to HELP people,that's it...then they will come...before you know it Saddleback will be a mega church...then we can all pat ourselves on the back(since we came up with the ideas) and say look what God has done!

Oh...um...okay....sounds good...it may work...let's give it a try.

Is that the way we should be about God's business?

By the way,are you Rick Warren in disguise?