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Can the Non-Elect Come Under Conviction?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Tom Butler, Mar 17, 2006.

  1. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob New Member

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  2. Me4Him

    Me4Him New Member

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    Don't forget, rejecting what the scripture say. :D :D [​IMG] [​IMG] ;)
     
  3. Scott J

    Scott J Active Member
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    quote:
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    quote: BBob--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    I am saying Paul was a chosen vessel and you and I are not.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Scott J
    And I am saying that idea is wholly and completely unbiblical.

    Please point out the words in that verse that says only Paul or only the Apostles were elect. The verse says that he was a chosen vessel which points to his Apostleship and ministry.

    You have ignored the context as is so often the case with critics of calvinism. Ananias was concerned because of Paul's recent persecution of the church. God reassures him that Paul was a "chosen vessel". Nowhere in this passage does God say anything to support your contention that only the Apostles were elect. They were in fact elect to salvation and to a very special ministry... but that does not prove that others are not elect and ordained to a ministry as well.
     
  4. Scott J

    Scott J Active Member
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    Wonder why Jesus specifically used the analogy of birth if the conception of salvation was a choice by the individual rather than a choice by a progenitor?
     
  5. saturneptune

    saturneptune New Member

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    Really, undecided which side of this debate I fall on. If I had to decide on graciousness and demeanor, Brother Bob would win hands down, dont ya think Npet? Calvinism makes sense, but the messengers are quite harsh.
     
  6. Me4Him

    Me4Him New Member

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    Wonder why Jesus specifically used the analogy of birth if the conception of salvation was a choice by the individual rather than a choice by a progenitor? </font>[/QUOTE]"Under the law", Gods not obligated to save anyone, all have sinned.

    Anyone who is saved is saved by the "GRACE" of God's mercy, (Jesus dying) in spite of God's "justification" to condemn all.

    And that Grace/Mercy is offer to all through their faith in Jesus, the reason he died for the sins of the "Whole world".
     
  7. Scott J

    Scott J Active Member
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    Not exactly what I said. To quibble a little, I believe that God changed our spirit by regeneration in such a way that our faith will be rightly targeted. He opened our spiritual eyes so we can see clearly the truth of the gospel.
    Ummm. Nope. People by default have faith. Most put faith in a god of their own creation. Many even use the Bible as a means to create such a false god. You came pretty close to having it right when you made the difference that God is in the faith of some but not in the faith of others... but that presence is by His good will, not ours.

    If in fact you "did" prove that, you would have helped rather than hurt my argument.


    If you're saved (regenerated) before you believe, then who needs Jesus to die for sins you no longer have???</font>[/QUOTE] That objection is non-sensical. Regeneration is an element of salvation, the prime cause for individual salvation, not the whole thing. Those terms are not synonyms.

    Christ died to provide atonement. Regeneration is the change of spirit/will that accompanies application of the atonement.

    That's why many ARE called, but few accept the words of Jesus. </font>[/QUOTE] You didn't answer the question and that IS NOT what that verse says. It does not say "but few accept the words of Jesus". It says many are called but few chosen. Boy isn't that inconvenient to your cause... but very, very telling concerning the biblical integrity of your position.

    Why would you feel compelled to change the words of a reference to make it fit your argument?
    As I said If you're "first saved", then Jesus isn't needed.</font>[/QUOTE] And you truly erred... apparently not knowing the scriptures.

    But even that doesn't cover it since I quoted scripture to you and you responded with a disagreement with it.

     
  8. Scott J

    Scott J Active Member
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    Wonder why Jesus specifically used the analogy of birth if the conception of salvation was a choice by the individual rather than a choice by a progenitor? </font>[/QUOTE]"Under the law", Gods not obligated to save anyone, all have sinned.</font>[/QUOTE] Whoooooaaa. That is NOT what you are teaching. You are teaching that God is obligated to respect man's choice. You demand that if God sovereignly chooses to save some then He is in fact "obligated" to give everyone equal opportunity... that it would be unfair if God elected some of those who sinned while allowing others to continue in their sin.

    You'll have to flesh that statement out a little better. What is the "GRACE" of God's mercy? "Jesus dying" makes atonement for sin. Grace is the application of that atonement resulting in our being given something we don't deserve.
    You rightly say this but then object to the notion that God can sovereignly choose to save some and still be perfectly justified in condemning the remainder of this "all".

    Again the what the scripture actually says doesn't match the way you've used it.

    That verse uses the word "propitiation" which has to do with sufficiency, not efficiency. I am not aware of many calvinists, here anyway, that argue that Christ's blood is not sufficient to cover even more sins than were ever commmitted. Propitiation doesn't deal with the extent of the application but rather with the quality/sufficiency of the covering itself.

    Here is a comment/definition from dictionary.com:

     
  9. Scott J

    Scott J Active Member
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    BTW, the only alternative to this interpretation of 1 John 2:2 that comes close to matching the text is to declare universal atonement... which would make those words contradict other scripture.
     
  10. Paul of Eugene

    Paul of Eugene New Member

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    To refuse to do something that you cannot do anyway is not a sin.

    It is a sin to refuse to repent and believe

    Therefore men can repent and believe.
     
  11. epistemaniac

    epistemaniac New Member

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    why do you take a disagreement with you to be getting "down"? you seem every bit as "harsh" (*ie strong disagreement) as Calvinists are against all teachers of synergism (ie Roman Catholics and all Evangelical Christians who think that salvation is by faith through faith alone, ie individual election to salvation)

    after all... its not as if the strong words come in one direction Bob.... for instance you can intimate that I am hard headed/hard hearted by saying
    I doubt you will come to agree with my position, and you doubt that I will agree to yours... does that make me any more stubborn or hard hearted then you?

    the point here is this... you cannot prove your position by what is in the text,you are reading into it your synergistic views... and neither can Me4him.... sure he prayed... but he prayed the whole time he was killing Christians, as he was busy being about "God's work". The point is, Paul's experience goes against everything that Arminianism (or, if you prefer, synergism) teaches about salvation, namely that it is a cooperative enterprise, where God does His part and He has to wait until man does his.... and if God can elect Paul from birth, as Paul says he was, who is to say that God would not have the right to do so with everyone? After all, if it is granted that God elected one person to salvation, to grant them saving faith, a regenerated heart so that he believed and was saved, then the Arminian/semi pelagian has to object saying that it was not fair for God to do this with one person... though we do not see Paul complaining about this ;) and you grant that He may have done it for many others as well, though I guess you get to be the one who says when its right for God to do this and when its wrong for Him....? If God is righteous and just in doing as He will with the relatively small group you are granting are elected, then it is simply special pleading and arbitrary for you to restrict God's work on individual hearts to those few you want to grant... the fact is, God saves people in the way He always saves people, and in this regard, the disciples are no more "special" then you or I... we are all simply sinners saved by grace through faith alone... and we were saved before the foundation of the world, prior to any of us doing anything good or bad, but rather, that God's purpose in election might stand....

    blessings,
    Ken
     
  12. epistemaniac

    epistemaniac New Member

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    exactly, I am glad to see you finally agreeing to individual election to salvation... Jesus reminds us that He does the choosing after all...

    Joh 15:16 NKJV You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you.


    Joh 15:19 NKJV If you were of the world, the world would love its own. Yet because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you.

    and lest anyone wants to restrict this to the disciples... thats a no-go... Jesus says that this is for everyone to whom He would be sending the Comforter... the Helper... and all Christians recieve this Comfort from the Helper... if they do not, they are not Christians... after all, we easily (and rightly) apply Jesus' words about the world hating us (all Christians)... Joh 15:18 NKJV If the world hates you, you know that it hated Me before it hated you."
    therefore it equally applies that Jesus chose us, we did not choose Him... for while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us...
    Eph 1:3-6 NKJV Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, (4) just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, (5) having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, (6) to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.

    blessings,
    Ken
     
  13. epistemaniac

    epistemaniac New Member

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    wrong... God commands us to be holy as He is holy... we can't do that... so is it wrong for God to command us to do what He knows we cannot do? God commands us to not sin, is He wrong for doing that because He knows perfectly well and good that we will still sin?

    blessings,
    Ken
     
  14. epistemaniac

    epistemaniac New Member

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    and Arminians still have to come to grips with this.... regarding the whole "Calvinism really can't preach the gospel to everyone because only the elect will come to believe, thus sharing the gospel with everyone is a sham" perspective because it is a plain fact that God knows all those who are His, He has known from all eternity who would believe and who would not, so the Arminian is preaching the gospel to people that the Lord knows will never repent and believe the gospel.... and so as long as the doctrine of God's exhaustive foreknowledge holds out, Arminianism is an irrational perspective.. that is why the Open Theists recognized this Achilles heel of Arminianism and as a result, had to eject God's exhaustive foreknowledge to say that God doesn't really know the future exhaustively, so God really is surprised when people come to believe in Him!!... thus they have moved into blatant heresy by denying God's exhaustive foreknowledge, but at least they are logically consistent....

    blessings,
    Ken
     
  15. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob New Member

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    epistemaniac;
    Sorry if I sounded offensive but we go around and around. I have a lot of friends who believe as you do and they are Primitive Baptist who I love all of them and they love me also. We won't get on this subject because we know we are not going to change the other. We used to be together but split over this very issue and maybe that is why I sound harsh sometimes defending the position I have taken, I don't know but both side get way way too harsh. When we cut the other one down we are going to get a harsh answer right back.

    Apostle Paul was a chosen vessel and was an Apostle to try and judge us as being equal with him is just will not work, for I have always believed in the predestination of the Apostles and the coming of Jesus Christ.

    I also want to add that He concluded all under sin and that none is good no not one. We all need the mercy and grace of our Lord through faith in Him. The Bible is full of those that moved out on faith and received Salvation. If someone was pre-chosen according if he moved out on his faith and he sat on his buff and never did anything then I am afraid he would join the rich man in hell.

    Acts, chapter 9
    "15": But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:
     
  16. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob New Member

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    We answer you but it goes in one ear and out the other. I just gave some advice on a church protecting itself and was attacked by all calvinist. Do you think they attacked me for telling them how they should be ready and prepared for living in this world for He hath chosen us out of the world but we are still in it and must be able to defend outselves for if they could they would take our buildings and everything we have accomplished. To think otherwise is foolish just watch the news and look at the churches that were burned down and that is not the end just the beginning. I for one will be as prepared as I possibly can and to be attacked for trying to help others and called being on a high horse and many other things is just uncalled for, but youth will do that.
     
  17. Me4Him

    Me4Him New Member

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    Not exactly what I said. To quibble a little, I believe that God changed our spirit by regeneration in such a way that our faith will be rightly targeted. He opened our spiritual eyes so we can see clearly the truth of the gospel.
    People have the "free will" to "believe" anything they chose, this forum proves that, you can believe calvin, Bob, Me, anyone you chose, and it's the same with believing God.


    Your "theory" just got "shot down". :D (again)


    Wrong, Regeneration is the "ABSENT OF SIN", which only comes "After", faith in Jesus, the atonement that "took away" your sins, making regeneration possible.

    Without an atonment for sin, (Jesus) God doesn't save anyone, that's why faith in Jesus comes "first".

    Do you know what "good" means, without sin, not that they don't know good from evil, they do.

    What was the reason Jesus said they could hear his words, God's fault, or them closing their eye/ears/hearts???

    Mt 13:15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

    And if they didn't close their eye/ears/hearts,

    and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.


    When Jesus invited the Jews to the marriage supper, who's fault was it that they rejected??

    Mt 22:3 And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.

    Mt 22:5 But they made light of it, and went their ways, one to his farm, another to his merchandise:

    Mt 22:8 Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy.

    Under calvin doctrine, God is accused of being at fault for the Jews rejecting Jesus, not giving them the faith to believe Jesus, but who
    does the scripture say is at fault, Jesus said, I would, they wouldn't.

    Who's lying???

    [QUOTE}People won't hear because they are not "of God". See John 1:11-13. People must be born of the will of God... to be "of God".</font>[/QUOTE]God's will is that none perish, but some do, Is God's will "sovereign" in this area???

    God calls, but the choice is man's, and he is judged for that choice, chosen/unchosen.
    Chose ye this day whom ye will serve, whether unto death or righteousness.

    If you'll learn the correct definition of "good" (without sin) and stop trying to say that man doesn't know "good from evil", then you'll know that man does recognize good from evil and make a choice between the two.

    This is why God gave the law, so man could know what was sin and what wasn't. (good/evil)
     
  18. Me4Him

    Me4Him New Member

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    Double post.

    I have more trouble with this site than any.

    Do ya seepost the devil is attempting to keep me from posting the "truth"??? :eek: :D [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]
     
  19. Me4Him

    Me4Him New Member

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    Triple post.

    devil is working "overtime". :mad: :D
     
  20. Me4Him

    Me4Him New Member

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    To "qualify" as an "Apostle", one must to have "SEEN JESUS" in person, Paul said he was the "last".
     
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