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Tongues as the evidence of the Holy Spirit is not Biblical

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by Lorelei, Jan 7, 2002.

  1. Whosoever

    Whosoever New Member

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    Hello Don:
    Just browsing the website and would like to comment on your earlier reply to Oneness. You said that there is no such thing as angelic tongues. When we read 1 Cor 13:1 it states, by the Apostle Paul "Though I speak with the tongues of men(Russian, English, Spanish, Hebrew, etc...) and - and- angels (or angelic language - heavenly language) and not have charity (love) and so on . Notice here Paul says "I" speak. You see Don there is an angelic language or our prayer languge as most Pentecostals call it. I'm not taking Oneness view here but just wanted to comment. Thanks.................
     
  2. Don

    Don Well-Known Member
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    Hi, Whosoever. What you may have missed out on is some of our earlier discussions regarding that very thing.

    Look closely at 1 Corinthians 13:1 -- "IF I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.

    What we sometimes tend to overlook is that this verse needs to be put into context. For instance, the next two verses (verses 2 and 3) say "And if I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing. And if I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and if I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing."

    If you look at verse 3, Paul says "IF I give my body to be burned"; did he? We can find no record of Paul giving his body to be burned anywhere (please feel free to correct me).

    So now we have to determine: Was Paul a liar, or was he trying to make a point?

    The answer is, he was making a point; that point being, we must have love above all else.

    If Paul didn't give his body to be burned, then it's safe to say that he didn't speak in the tongue of angels.

    Further evidence of this is the fact that this is the ONLY verse in the entire Bible--let me repeat: the ENTIRE Bible--that mentions the "tongue of angels."

    Paul wasn't saying he spoke in a tongue of angels, any more than he was saying that he gave his body to be burned, or had all knowledge, or understood all mysteries.

    Thus, to say "if I speak in the tongues of men and of angels" is similar to me saying "if I speak in the tongues of men and of animals."

    And Dr. Doolittle I ain't. Understand?
     
  3. Whosoever

    Whosoever New Member

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    Hey Don

    Don you wrote that Pauls' point in the chapter was "we must have love above all" Why? I agree that we must have love but why?
    Look at what Paul is saying at the end of the 3 verses. V1. A tongue that is just like making alot of noise (kinda like a drummer who can't play the drums,cymbals,etc....) but put someone who has the right stuff and it will produce - (If you have love it will benefit or profit you)
    V2. I am nothing . Why is Paul saying He's nothing? because without Love it is nothing and will not profit you.
    V3. It profiteth me nothing . Why? Again no love.
    Don look at ch.12 he just got through going over the gifts, notice gifts. Then Ch.13 he's making himself the example for the whole church to follow. He's trying to show them that the gifts are nothing if love is not involved. I agree with you on the emphasis on love but he's also showing what love can do for you. It can profit you where you won't sound like sounding brass, or tinkling cymbal. Or it will profit you if you give to the needy with a loving heart instead of a heart that (It's the right thing to do because I have to do it). Do it because you want to. Yes, Paul didn't get burned but was Killed by Nero. But look what this man sacraficed for the Church
    2 Cor 1:3-12 notice v.8 . No, Paul didn't die at the stake, he was giving an example.
    Everything he stated was things that was taking place in his day and he was just stating to the Corinthian church when you are in the gifts, giving to the poor, possibly dying for what you believe be sure it is done in love. Now let's just say that Paul didn't pray in an angelic tongue,why even bring angel tongues up in the first place? Don, look at 1 Cor 11:10 why would Paul even talk about angels here? Notice V. 9 then look at Gen 6:2-4 these guys were fallen angels which had relations with woman.
    Do you see it? Paul writes in the Cor ltr. V. 9 woman for man not woman for fallen angels Why? Look at the result GIANTS. What does Paul know about angels that you and me do not know? God destroyed the earth with the flood of Noah and only eight people made it through then how did the giants get back here?FALLEN ANGELS. David fought Goliath and his 4 brothers 2 Samuel 21:15-22 notice v.19 (Now you know why David picked up 5 stones instead of just 1 for Goliath because after he killed Goliath he was going to clean house but the Philistines ran or he would have killed them all. He later did though 2 Sam 21;15-22. The point I'm trying to make is there is alot about angels - fallen angels and to say there is no angelic language and Paul just picked it up off the floor not meaning anything by it. No. He meant something by it alright. 1 Cor 14:2 says it plain enough not mans' tongue to be understood but a language man cannot understand. ANGELIC TONGUE. 1 Cor 13:1
    I listen to alot of bashing of tongues and I wish other pentecostals would comment but thats O.K. it would probably be the same the other way around on a Charasmatic website. And you know it's all rubbish.
    I think the problem is the understanding of Ch 14. Don. Notice the gift of tongues with interpretation not translation. There is a difference. People have said to me that you don't even know what your saying (V.2)
    Let me give you an example Approximately 3 times that I have heard a Gift of tongues in different pentecostal churhes. Each time I heard the gift of tongues I begin to pray to the Father in English if he would grant to me the interpretation not translation. You can believe me or not, I cant't force you to believe, the Lord revealed by his Spirit what was interpretation before it was even given. I know this has happened with other Christians also even Baptist acquaints that I have. I know the frustrations of many people who don't speak in tongues, I was the biggest one , but it is real but it is not the only thing God has planned for the Church. I know there are Charasmatic fanactics just like any denomination but everybody is not the same. I believe you receive the holy ghost on conversion the only thing left now are infillings or refreshings from the presence of the Lord Acts 3:19 and they come as we christians submit to the will of God. You will have many infillings throughout your life 2 Cor 7:13. Notice how God used the Corinthians to bring a refreshing to Titus' Spirit or to build him up. You ever feel like things aren't going right then God will send someone or something in your path to build you up. I get down sometimes myself but when I here of healings or someone getting saved it'll bring my joy back, a skip in my step , you know what I mean Don. The joy of the Lord is My strength. Another example is when the Lord will bring you along to touch a life in need, doesn't it make you feel good that the Lord uses you. Hey! That's 1 Cor 13: 3 Praise God!!!!!!! This is what I pusue in life those refreshings to be used of God however he sees it. I know I got off the subject here but who cares. May God Bless you Don in whatever your undertakings maybe. Signing off. Whosoever!!!!!!!
     
  4. Don

    Don Well-Known Member
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    Hey, I'm with you, Whosoever. Every time someone gets raised up because of something God has worked through me, that's God working! And I give Him the praise and the glory for it.

    You have a pretty balanced view on this subject, as opposed to some I've come across (not anyone on this board).

    Couple of things for you to think about:

    Look at 1 Cor 12:31, the preface for chapter 13; Paul says covet the best gifts, yet I show you a more excellent way. What was that way? Love. Not so much in accordance with the gifts, as love in itself. Will any spiritual gift benefit with added? You betcha. But the examples we're given from Christ Himself--the four men who lowered the cripple through the roof, the good Samaritan, etc.--all show sterling examples of the love that is talked about throughout the Bible.

    Second, you gave examples of angels throughout the Bible. No one has ever denied that angels, both those of the Lord and the fallen ones, exist. What we're discussing is an "angelic tongue." I did a really intensive study on this once upon a time, because I wanted to know for myself what the truth of the matter was. I didn't rely on outside sources; I used only the Bible. And if you read through the Bible, you'll find that EVERY time an angel talks to someone, there's no reference to an angelic tongue being used. Either the angel is speaking to the individual in his/her own tongue, or the individual has understanding of what the angel is saying.

    Don't take my word for it; I didn't take anyone else's word for it, either. If you have a decent computer bible program, do a search for the words tongue, tongues, language, languages, angel, angels, messenger, and messengers.

    Third, re-look at 1 Corinthians 14:2. There's an interesting point in that verse that we tend to gloss over: no man understands. Look at just verses 2 through 5, and what do you get? The point Paul is making is that our focus should be on the edifying of others.

    Those that look at the use of the "angelic tongue" as a "proof" of the baptism of the Holy Spirit are looking for signs for believers, when Paul clearly tells us that tongues are a sign for unbelievers.

    Those that look at the use of the "angelic tongue" as a "personal language" between them and God are ignoring that Paul also says our focus should be on the edification of others, not ourselves.

    Now, Whosoever, when you read this, understand something: I'm still making points. Your post didn't seem to exemplify either one of those two final points.
     
  5. Whosoever

    Whosoever New Member

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    hello Don

    Just sat down at computer and saw your post. I was just wandering if you were wanting me to reply back about evidence of the tongues for Baptism of the Holy Ghost and about the edifying with tongues for ourselves when it should be edifying for people. I would like to reply but want to make sure that is what were talking about. Let me know. Later..........
     
  6. Don

    Don Well-Known Member
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    To keep this thread on topic...we should stick with "Tongues as evidence of the Holy Spirit."
     
  7. Whosoever

    Whosoever New Member

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    Hey Don:

    I believe you are suggesting that, now that I have read your reply again. I really do not want to go into alot of redderick (Spell) about this baptism of the Holy Ghost with the evidence of speaking in tongues. Do I believe in tongues (dialect and angelic)? yes. I would rather just tell you how I received my prayer language not baptism of the holy ghost. I received the Holy Ghost when I gave my life to the Lord. Did I speak in tongues? No, I didn't. Not at first. If you read my profile you will see my favorite verse. Romans 15:18-20. I like where Paul says "I will not dare to speak of any of those things which Christ hath not wrought by me". In other words if it didn't happened to me or in me then why would I try to convince somebody else of a doctrine that I didn't even do myself. I would like to only tell you Don how the receiving of tongues happened in my members not a doctrine way and I'll tell you something else most people who say that they are seeking the Baptism of the Holy Ghost are really only seeking TONGUES. I've heard so many people in Bible studies in the past say that they felt like they didn't even have the Holy Ghost because they weren't speaking in tongues. You other people that read this who are Pursuing your prayer language you are not the only ones going through the Battle of this thing called TONGUES. Don, I don't know if you spent alot of time with Charasmatics or not but I have and let me tell you something I have heard everything under the sun pertaining to this subject. I used to tell the Pastor, where I was attending at the time, that God said in his word 1 Cor 14:33 that he was not the author of confusion so why was it, every Charasmatic church was different about this issue. I got the same look like I got every where else ANGER, DISBELIEF THAT I WOULD EVEN QUESTION IT, LOOKED DOWN UPON. etc.... So I have seen alot but I'm sure there is more affliction and will probably even get a reply on this reply but that's O.K. Like Paul said, only what Jesus wrought in me.

    Back in 1997, my wife and I were getting ready for our firstborn child. We were not Christians at the Time but had grown up in church. I had grown up in Baptists, Charasmatic churches, and my wife in Baptists churches only. Well on November 11, 1997 I got a phone call from the Doctor's office that I needed to get there fast so I did. When I arrived I received word that we lost the Baby in miscarriage. Now alot of people have miscarriages but this was a weird experience because of the date. You see November 11 is our wedding anniversary and Nov 11 is Veterans Day. I am a Saudi Vet and at the time I was stationed with the Marines of 2d Force Service Support Group (2d FSSG). It was weird but I forgot about it soon after. In Jan 1998 at about 1:A.M. to make a long story short the Lord begin to deal with me. Soon after I was saved and baptized. My wife was a little reluctant to be going to a shoutin, foot stoppin, tongue speakin, hand raisin, church not gettin out until 1 or 2 o'clock church. She didn't like people laying hands to pray over her or the pastor would ask people to clap or raise their hands when the church would sing. It was a culture shock which in many cases for people it is. But you know what helped her get over this, God's word. 1 Tim 2:8 , Rom 16:16, 1 Cor 16:20, 2 Cor 13:12, 1 Thes 5:26, 1 Pet 5:14. Seeing people slain in the Spirit. Granted alot people fall down because they are in the spotlight of the Pastors no different when Pastors visit peoples home, how they hide the cigarettes, booze, dirty magazines, etc.. they are in the spotlight so they perform what the pastors want them to do. That in itself ought to Prosphesy to some people that there not living a holy life, but no conviction. Don I've been slain in the Spirit only one time in my life and it wasn't because I wanted to but because the Lord was revealing to me at the time not to doubt his healing power. Don you see people on television who fall backward on the ground and I know that alot of them are probably faking it but some aren't. When I was slain in the spirit I didn't fall on my back I fell on my face. Did you know what I did first when I hit the floor? I asked God what was going on. You see before I fell I felt God dealing with me at the alter but I refused to go down in his presence and all of a sudden it felt like somebody hit the back of my legs and I went down. Nobody hit my legs. The power of God took me down. I didn't do all the Hurky Jerky stuff, not saying Hurky Jerky stuff ain't real, I just didn't do that. I asked God again what was going on and I just closed my eyes and I saw (you can believe or not Don but it happened) a figure on a cross, a skinny man who everytime he breathed I saw his ribs, in & out, in & out, in & out protruding as he gasped for air. There was a light rain falling on him because I remember his thin hair sticking to his head as the rain fell on him and I remember the rain drops dripping on his body with blood mixed in it. It was a humbling experience because he never said a word to me he just stared at me as he gasped for air then like as it appeared it disappeared. I got up off the floor walked back to my seat and sat down by my wife and as soon as I did the Lord spoke to me not to ever doubt his healing power in my family again. For you see a few days earlier I had prayed for My wife who was having major Migraine headaches associated with dizziness. She asked me to pray for her and I did. As soon as I was done she had no more pain or dizziness. My wife started crying, shouting praises to God and I sat over there doubting every thing that just happened not letting her know that. When it happened I just couldn't believe it. Here I was a new christian with my pampers on and really didn't think I was spiritual enough that God could render such thing in my family. Do I doubt now? NO, I don't. People say slain in the Spirit is not Biblical, it is Biblical it is just not called slain in the spirit in the Bible. Another thing, people who do get slain in the Spirit you better stay down until God reveals to you why you went down in the first place. Don I've seen alot of the showboatin' and thats what ruins God's precious awesomenous. Acts 10:10 (what did the Lord reveal to him?) That God was not a respector of Jews or Gentiles. He loved them both. Do you see here the intrepetation of his vision not translation but interpretation. We have a sheet coming down with animals on it and God tells him to eat. 3 times did the Lord do this. You see Peter was to interpret what was being seen not take the translation literal but what was the interpretation. If you notice he didn't know at first what it meant but he later did. WOW!!!This vision prophesied to his spirit about God not being a respector of persons. Why didn't God Just tell him instead of showing him animals. It's how God works. You see how prophesying from God builds a person up. Look at Jesus' miracles, some people it built up and some it didn't. This is why I believe 1 Cor 14 where Paul's says that we should want to Prophesy. Why? Because God can use a person to perform the gifts which in turn prophesy to the person to whom the gift is bestowed upon. What is the result then? People get saved, people get a breakthroughs, people get edified. PEOPLE SEE GOD. It's not the Miracle, healing, word of Knowledge, tongues, etc......This is what itis:>>>> Did this manifestation of his spirit prophesy to anybody<<<<<. Look at Day of Pentecost. It never says what was said when the tongues were performed except the interpretation. The mighty works of God. It even prophesied to Peter because he sat over there and put two and two together and stood up and said basically, Hey you people this is what Joel meant when he said; You know what he said. God took care of the sinners and his boys with one prophesying. GOD IS SO AWESOME.
    Another slain in the spirit Acts 22:17, 2 Cor 12:1-9, Numbers 24:1-4. You see Don I agree with most mainstream when they see the cookyness of certain people who do things and not even understand why. Each case here the recipient was prophesied to. I think the Devil uses the fanatics to keep people from having what God intended for us to have. It seems to be working but I'll tell you one thing, your missin out. You might say how do I get a vision from God. First thing people need to do is stop bickering and bashing and ask God by his fresh annointings to reveal himself. I do not have visions except that one time but I do have alot of dreams where the Lord reveals himself. I come in contact with alot of people who have dreams and they think there ****** dreams only because they are trying to translate instead of interpreting the dream. Ex: Pharoah's dream of the famine and Joseph interpreted FAMINE. Why didn't God Just say FAMINE. He's prophesying and nobody is listening.
    Another dream King 'Nebby' of Babylon. Why the statue of Gold? But Daniel intrepreted.
    Now think of all of the Parables by Jesus.
    He interpreted not translated. There are people right now who are reading this (I feel this by the Spirit of God)you have dreams but you don't understand, ask for the interpratation and go on with your daily routine. Make sure you keep the dream in mind (I'll write them down sometimes) Gen 37:11, Acts 10:17,28,34 If you really had a dream and you know it is from God he will reveal it to you if your looking for it. It might be at work, driving down road, listening to a message. I know Don, I'm on a rabbit trail but I feel this is for somebody, I will answer the question in one of these replies I promise.

    I just stopped and re-read my chicken scratch and feeling a little tired but will resume with this conversation with you Don about tongues and the edifying part tommorow.
    "Let everything that hath breathe praise the Lord"

    P.S. For the people with the dreams I will remember you in my prayers tonight that God will reveal himself to you. God Bless you all. Run the race with confidence.
     
  8. Whosoever

    Whosoever New Member

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    Hey Don;
    Sorry, I didn't get your last reply until I wrote the book, my apologies. Will try tommorrow to answer your question.
     
  9. Don

    Don Well-Known Member
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    Hey, it's okay; you should see some of the books some of the other people on this board write!

    But you did give quite a bit of info; give me some time to read through it a couple of times.
     
  10. ONENESS

    ONENESS New Member

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>There are people right now who are reading this (I feel this by the Spirit of God)you have dreams but you don't understand, ask for the interpratation and go on with your daily routine. Make sure you keep the dream in mind (I'll write them down sometimes) Gen 37:11, Acts 10:17,28,34 If you really had a dream and you know it is from God he will reveal it to you if your looking for it. It might be at work, driving down road, listening to a message. I know Don, I'm on a rabbit trail but I feel this is for somebody, I will answer the question in one of these replies I promise.
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Sounds like you hit the nail on the head for me. THanks
     
  11. Whosoever

    Whosoever New Member

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    Hello again Don:

    Now back to the subject at hand TONGUES AS EVIDENCE OF THE HOLY SPIRIT

    1. Tongues as evidence of the Holy Spirit?
    -You Betcha'
    2. Tongues as evidence of receiving the Holy Spirit? - No

    I'm sorry my fellow christians who believe this way on the second question because ----
    well, I don't want to answer this because those who believe this way, the 2d question, will only get upset and I do not want that. I've had to listen to the ridicule to many times, so let's see what God's word says and we all might learn something to add to our Christian journey in life.
    - Let's look at Matt 28:19, Mark 16:15, Luke 24:47, Acts 1:8. Do you see anything these three have in common besides preaching salvation and baptising and signs and wonders? Yes, Go into all the world, not just Jerusalem, Judaea, and Samaria but as Jesus said the uttermost parts of the earth.
    But there was one thing they needed and what was it? Holy Spirit Power. Why? Try doing the gifts without the power - Good Luck.
    Gift of the Holy Spirit.
    Notice something, the Gift is not the Holy Spirit the gift is Power.
    Don't get me wrong, I know he takes up residence when born again. (Holy Spirit)
    Think of it this way. You get a gift from a friend you don't get your friend even though he is understood to be your friend.
    Look at spiritual gifts:
    Gift of healing, Gift of Miracles, Gift of Tongues, gift of word of knowledge etc...
    What Gift of healing is the Lord going to use me for? Possibly to pray for a cancer patient that they might receive their healing, pray for somebody who has aids that they might receive their healing. You see there are different healings God manifest through his Spirit and so on with the other Gifts. When you say GIFT that covers alot.
    Look at what Jesus said in ACTS 1:8
    You shall receive what? Power or Holy Ghost? which one do you suppose? They are one in the same 1 Cor 12:8, 9, 11.
    Notice what Jesus says Holy Ghost comes upon. In the Old testament Holy Spirit came upon 1 Sam 10:6, deals with Saul, but Saul also lost that Spirit 1 Sam 16:14 and was given to David 1 Sam 16:13. You see when Jesus came to earth he made a promise. Look at John 14:15,16. See what Jesus said, He said The comformter (Holy Spirit) would what? abide, (Continue) with who? You, if you believe. What makes you a beleiver? Is it, well I heard about a good man named Jesus, how he healed people, etc...... That won't cut it. I know stories about Columbus but I can't believe every thing I read about Him and that certainly doesn't make me a believer. I wasn't there when Jesus died either so I can't prove that he ever did die on the cross now can I? So what makes me a believer that he did die? THE HOLY SPIRIT.
    Look at the v20 in John. Do you see it Jesus knows just hearing stories ain't going to convince anybody but stories mixed with the power of the Holy Spirit will do the job. Don, I'm not saying you don't understand what the Holy Spirit is I'm saying all of this for the climax. I read over these last few lines and I Kinda made it sound like you don't understand how the Holy Spirit works but I know better and don't mean anything toward you personnally.

    Back to John 14:16 continuing on in the verse. He said the comformter would be with you for how long? Forever. Forever is forever.
    Do you see the difference between old testament and new testament Spirit. The spirit did not stay on them forever.
    It seems like it didn't take long, in the Old Testament for you to mess up and lose it and leave you as an ORPHAN John 14:18.
    Look at Saul cry like a baby when God stopped talkng to him 1 Sam 28:5,6 and 1Sam 28:15-20. Now David did some things too. Look at what David says in Psalm 51:11
    Why did David say this? because this was the account of Bathsheba and David didn't forget what God did to Saul. He was quick to repent but still paid a price. Another interesting (rabbit trail) point. In the Old testament The Tabernacle was symbolic for a christian body where God's spirit resides today, The Prophet was God's Mouthpiece, and the priest was Gods' mediator for man and now the Holy Spirit takes the place of all of them. You don't need a priest anymore because we go by the Spirit through Jesus (who is our high priest)before Gods throne you don't have to just have a prophet anymore because God can talk to you by the Spirit and the Spirit is in you, the temple. Don, I know you probably already know this.

    Now continuing on the discussion in Acts 1:8
    What does it mean when it says come upon?
    Acts 3:19
    Now they did not know that they would speak in tongues. What did they know? That they had to preach to the WORLD, follow me charasmatics. Jesus gave them marching orders to preach but they had to wait for something. What was it? The language they were to have to speak with for the marching orders they were given. He said preach to the world. Remember there were 120 people there not just the 12. Has it been done away with? I don't beleive so . Azusa street episodes and other instances. I've always wandered the language I speak in isn't for the mission field. I have prayed in tongues and sometimes I feel I'm praying in a different dialect. Come on tongue talkers you know you have experienced it a time or two. Read the stories of Azusa street can you relate, I can.

    The rushing mighty wind in v.2 relates to the Holy Spirit. Look at John 3:8.
    So what happened exactly on the Day of Pentecost. THE HOLY SPIRIT CAME TO THIS EARTH FOR MAN TO HAVE IF HE WOULD BELIEVE in Jesus. So what was dialect tongues? It was a manifestation that the HOLY SPIRIT was now here on this earth for man to have forever if he received Jesus Christ. Just imagine for a minute those Disciples in that room.
    When they spoke in tongues I'll bet you they were in AW. You know why? Peter was probably sittin telling those people, WOW! what other things can this Holy Spirit bring about "you know what old Joel said there John, that his Spirit would be poured out, but you know John I didn't know it could be like this" I'm not saying Peter told the apostle John this, I'm just saying it Humorously. I believe God was showing Humanity that Day, Today starts a new day and from henceforth the rules have changed .
    God showed through his disciples what the Holy Spirit will do in each of our lives if we will obey. This world that we live in operates by money. All the kingdoms in the Book of Daniel have fallen except the New World order that is coming but what other Kingdom has not fallen either? TRADING kingdom, which is supported by money which you must have to operate, to live in this society we have today. Now Gods kingdom is different you only need to turn your back on this worldly system and enter Jesus' system and the currency is HOLY GHOST currency. There is no way you will survive without HIS currrency in your life as a christian. Rom 8:10-16. (rabbit trail) The antichrist will say that if you do not take his mark that you will not buy, sell, or trade in his system. How could this be? How can a man do such a thing as to controll the buying and selling of things. We, as America, do, along with other nations. You might say how? What did we do to Saadam Hussien, Moleshovic in Yugoslavia, to Pakistan and India, etc....
    WE PUT ECONOMIC SANCTIONS ON THE COUNTRIES WHO DID NOT ABIDE BY OUR RULES OF LIVING IN THIS WORLD. Could this have happened in the Past?of course, but not a scale or magnitude it could today. Is this what the antichrist has up his sleeve. If you don't abide with my dictations you will suffer by starvation. Just food for thought.

    Back to the subject. God was showing us with this one manifestation by what you can expect when entering his kingdom. Look at Acts 2:38-41. Why do I need this gift of the holy spirit or power of the Holy Spirit acts 17:28, Rom 8:
    Now we here people say that in order for you to verify that you just received the holy ghost, at the moment, you should speak in tongues, that is false. The statement should say this, At the moment that I saw Jesus, by his pulling of my inner man and I invited him in my life that is when I received his spirit (not all fillings though)and entered into his domain and his blessings and chastenings. Now Peter said that they would receive if they only believed. I dont' recall anywhere that the disciples asked for the Baptism of The Holy Ghost. Why would we ask when Jesus say you will get. It is a gift. I don't ask for gift , I receive when I believe. I do recall them asking Jesus for his Kingdom to be set up. Would you say it would be Ok to ask for a fresh annointing or another filling.? Of course it's Ok but God I believe does it his way . He tells us to ask for gifts but you don't get them all it is according to the purpose that you were called. (1 Cor 12)
    So how does tongues work?
    When you got saved you were now at the moment in the Kingdom (spiritual) of Christ and when you entered that kingdom tongues, healings, etc...etc...etc.... is now at your fingertips but only according to purpose and design that God has for you.
    Gal 3:27 & Gal 4:1-9 Notice v.1 He says your an heir when you first get saved even until you die but as long as you stay in pampers you will be like a slave and don't even know that you can have what an heir can have
    (though he be lord of all)
    V2 self explanatory
    v3 That verse pertains to christians today
    the rest is self explanatory.
    Hebrews 5:9-14 self explanatory
    People ask how Do I see God's kingdom come to past in their life (manifestations). 2 Tim 2:20-26. When God uses you in every day life at work, school, church,etc.... you cannot help but see God's manifestations.
    Alot of people have a problem with tongues and it is understandable but I believe if a person gets serious about it and will spend more time with people who do speak in tongues and ask questions I believe God will release there prayer language or Dialect tongue whatever the case may be.
    Let me tell you now how I received my tongue.
    I had been trying for over a month to really comprehend this tongues thing. Is it Baptism or what? My mother spoke in tongues when I was a child living in Arkansas. I remember sitting at the supper table and we all bowed our heads to pray for supper when all of a sudden my mother started praying in tongues. Now that was the first time I had ever heard that before and being kids I was starting to Laugh at that jibber jabber not knowing what it was. My mother sat there and begin to cry. I asked Mom what was the matter, along with my other siblings there at the time. She said to us. She said that there was something wrong with My Dad and My other Brother. They had went to Alabama to look for house to buy and my brother drove his own vehicle because he was looking for a job while Dad used his vehicle to look for a house.
    On their way back from Alabama to Ark my brother was driving behind my fathers' vehcile and when my father did not see my brother in the rear veiw miirror he turned around and went back. Do you know what happened? My brother fell asleep behind the wheel and went off a small creek bridge into the water upside down. Now luckily he kicked out the front windshield and got out but the truck was totalled by the insurance company.
    That really happened. God did not translate every thing that took place he just interpreted. My mother begin to pray and a peace came over her that was so weird to us kids at the time. We received a phone call from my Dad that confirmed not the wreck to us but that God Had told my mother that there had been trouble. Why does he do it? I don't know and I don't care ,I just believed.

    Back to how I received Tongues.
    I would drive home from work and would make the most ridiculus sounds out of my mouth you would ever hear. I would start gargling, just the most scenile gestures you could imagine and then I would ask God to help me whenever he was ready but it didn't work but I kept on trying to no avail. Then went and wasted alot of money on tapes and books you name it I tried it but to no avail.
    Then I thought like alot of people who are trying to speak in tongues that I wasn't saved and that didn't work. You might say that is ridiculous but so is washing yourself in a mudhole seven times to be healed or getting Jesus' spittle mixed with
    dirt so a man could see. What would you do to receive something from God even though you might not understand? Most people criticize when they see you failing.
    After I exhausted everything humanly possible with prayer I quit. Then about 1 week later we had a special guest speaker who came and spoke concerning tongues.
    I was not interested anymore because I was so frustrated but God wasn't through yet.
    Now he basically spoke why we as christians should not abandon our prayer language and I sat there and said to myself that's easy for you to say because I don't even
    have a prayer language to abandon.
    In the meantime while I was over there having a pity party for myself my wife jumped up went down to the front. It freaked me out. She didn't even give him a chance to give an alter call. She told me later what she said to him. That she didn't even speak in tongues and how we both had been struggling with this. He sat my wife down and son it wasn't even5 minutes and my wife was speaking in tongues and I was freaking out trying to figure it out and couldn't. She walked back to where I was sitting with tears in her eyes and told me that it ain't what you think. I didn't know what she meant by that I was to busy watching her speak in tongues. How are you doing that? I kept asking myself.

    That pastor came back to where I was sitting (I'm not telling you a lie Don, I am very serious) And asked me if I would go back to the pastors office with him and my wife. The whole time my wife is speaking in tongues. He pulled out this piece of paper and asked me to read it. You know what it was? reasons why I didn't speak in tongues.
    the main one I remember was "Its embarrasing to try to speak in tongues because people will look at you funny". Wouldn't you agree with that reason. People would say, "I wouldn't be embarrassed if God was in it" yes you people would. People can't even live as an example for Jesus at their workplace how much more would it be for them to speak in tongues. It's easier to make fun of tongues than it is to pursue tongues.
    Well back to the point. He asked me to bow my head and I did. He laid his hands on my head and asked the Lord to remove the devil that was coming against my mind. For the people that don't understand that. The thought processes that I was having toward all this tongue speaking. The devil will try to put these silly thought processes in your mind and he will succeed if you allow him. The devil cannot do anything unless you allow him. He was not praying for the devil to come out of me he was simpling praying to God to put an halt against the Devil's devices. The devil will put devices in your life to keep you from having kingdom benifits. I hear alot of people say that healing is even done away with. That's one of his devices. Say it long enough and it'll be true.
    The prayer was over, nothing happened and My wife was still speaking tongues and I was stilled confused. He prayed again along with my wife. This time (I'm telling the truth here Don) I asked God how are they doing this and as soon as I did, just as soon as I did the Lord gave me word in the spirit---------It's 11:30 here and I'm tired but Don I have to tell you people this-------
    now Don the word he gave me was (I'll try to spell it ) Kokahmia. You might say is this tongues? No it was not tongues. You might say how do you know it was not tongues? because the word came from my mind (Intelectually) You will not speak in tongues with an intelectual word that you make up, you will speak from the spirit not your mind (I hope I haven't lost you yet, it is hard to explain spirit in english words)
    The best example I can give is
    Lets say you want to scare your child.
    Well, you get behind the door and the child walks by and you jump out say RAAAAAAAWWWWWW or Boooooo or EEEEEEEEEEEKKKKKKKKKK whatever you do, you say it to scare them. Correct?
    Your mind said scare them but your spirit said RAAAAAWWWWWWWWWW ,BOOOOOOOOOO, EEEEEEEEE
    Don you know what? That word or whatever you want to call it is not understandable on the earth or is not in the dictionary.

    You simply thought it with the intelect and performed it with the spirit of your being.

    Ex.2 You pull up to Burger King and place your order. Well the girl messes it up (Your order) What do we do? we usually will sigh with a grunt noise and then say bla,bla,bla.(whatever you say when you get mad because they can't get your order correct) That sigh noise you made in the spirit it ain't english or any kind of language but you know how you felt angry. All your doing is expressing your innner man.

    Now granted this still is not tongues by these examples but it is the closest way to explain it.
    So kokahmia came to my intelect not spirit.
    That pastor asked me what I was thinking about? I told him that word kept coming to my mind and he said to me say it! But I told him that I didn't think that was tongues and he said so what! Now say it. So I did . That was all that happened. Kokahmia, Kokahmia, Kokahmia and on and on and on (I sounded Like a stuck record) Did I say any new words? No. My wife still speaking in tongues and I got my baby word Kokahmia going for me. It was silly to me with that word. That was all that happened that evening in church. On the way home I was driving the car and my wife still speaking in tongues and I was still alittle confused but when I got home i sat on the couch and closed my eyes and begin to say that word again (wife still speaking in tongues) Kokahmia, Kokahmia, Kokahmia while I was doing this the Lord said to me, say your own words, I said, Do What? He said Kokahmia is my word, now you say your own words. I still didn't understand until I begin to think about what he meant. Remember burger king, scaring your child? I Just started making sounds like that . Just off the wall stuff and Don all of a sudden I was saying words, that I knew from my spirit man, were tongues. Did you know I Begin to sing in tongues. The words I did not know intelectually but the harmony part or music part I did. The song was HOLY, HOLY, HOLY is the lamb of God. I know people who read this will think this is crazy but thats O.K.
    Just remember the next time somebody bugs you out a certain way try to remember what your spirit reacts with. It will surprise you. As the days went by my tongue got easier and It was awesome. I can't explain it to you but when you here yourself saying big words not little jibber jabber words it is weird that it exists in you and for you.

    Folks, that spirit man is wanting out so let him out. You people who speak in tongues write if you have had simmiliar instances.
    Well Don, I don't know what your thinking but I hope I have shed a little light on this subject of tongues and you people who believe that you received the baptism in the Holy ghost with the evidence of tongues keep going on with christ because God can do it however he wants to do it in your life but the bottom line is you speak in tongues and I cannot say you didn't receive it that way . That's where God is so cool he knows what your after more than yourself knows but he doesn't stop shedding his spirit because we might have slight mistakes in our thinking and people who think they know exactly how God moves are always downtrodding other peoples beliefs. God help us all come to the unity of faith.
    It's late here and I'm very tired.

    God Bless
     
  12. Don

    Don Well-Known Member
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    Man, I wasn't even finished going through the last one yet! [​IMG]

    Seriously, though, the topic title has been addressed; only Oneness and MEE are still stipulating that you must speak in tongues to "prove" that you've been filled with the Holy Spirit, something the rest of us (including Whosoever) disagree with.

    As for the rest of your material, Whosoever, I may start a new topic to ask you a few questions about what you've posted....
     
  13. atestring

    atestring New Member

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by superdave:
    I believe that Unknown refers to the Speaker.

    Speaking in many languages is a skill that can be learned

    Speaking in your own language and the audience hearing it in their own language without interpreters is another thing alltogether.

    I believe the gift was the ability to speak in a tongue you had not learned, or speaking and the audience hearing their own language through the work of the Holy Spirit. Very different from speaking a gibberish language that no one could understand.

    Besides the fact that we do not see tongues in every case where regeneration and Spirit Baptism occurred. We only see it in a select few cases. It was not the test of someone's salvation, and it was not some mystical after salvation experience.

    Jesus condmened many Religious leaders for looking for a sign, knowing that they did so out of their unbelief. Many today look for visible signs of the working of the Spirit because they lack the one key gift of the Holy Ghost, faith and knowlege of our Lord Jesus Christ. I believe that they are preaching what Paul called "another gospel"

    In I Cor 12:13, Paul says "For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit"

    This is just after he talks about the different gifts given to different people. They all had the same Spirit, but did not all speak in tongues

    I Cor 12:30 "Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?


    Gal 1:6-9 "I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you unto the grace of Christ unto another gospel: Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you and would pervert the gospel of Christ. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that you have recieved, let him be accursed."

    Paul clearly did not teach that Tongues were the proof that a person had recieved the Holy Spirit, and said if anyone tried to preach that, they were to be accursed.
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
    Help me out,
    I would like to know the Greek word for "gibberish."
    Where is this Word found in a biblical greek text?
     
  14. Whosoever

    Whosoever New Member

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    People have the understanding of being baptised into one spirit but do not understand having the Holy Spirit come upon them. Jesus breathed on the disciples the Holy Ghost in the book of John but the Holy Spirit fell upon them or got fueled up. It's like you have a car (Holy Spirit) but you have to have gas to make it perform (filling of the Spirit or Spirit fell upon them). If they would look at Acts 8: notice that the word says For the Holy spirit had fallen UPON none of them they had only been baptised in Jesus. They received the Spirit just not the Infilling. It's kind of like saying you got the Holy Spirit, now what? They basically went down to Samaria, laid hands on them and the Lord MANIFESTED evidence (power) of what they obtained through their belief in Jesus. Now was it tongues or not? I don't know what was manifested but something was that showed Simon that he wanted to purchase the power that Peter and John had. Why? Because when they laid THEIR hands on people, that person whom Peter and John laid their hands on, had a manifestation of the Holy Ghost. Simon wanted to buy that same power that Peter and John possessed. You won't understand tongues, if you don't hang with people that manifest tongues how will you ever learn how to recieve. Some will say, So it's a learned thing? no, it is not, but it will help you understand if your are truly persuing your tongue language and what better way than to hang with people who do.
    I was the biggest skeptic when it came to tongues. It intrigued me how a person could do such a thing. I never thought of disregarding it, I just didn't understand. I can't believe people spend so much time trying to find why they think tongues is a thing of the past. Granted tongues is not the most important thing but to say it doesn't exist for belivers today is just unbelievable.
     
  15. atestring

    atestring New Member

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    Seems like there is a lot of interest in this subject.
    Are people just curious or is it possible that there is a spiritual hunger?
     
  16. Don

    Don Well-Known Member
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    It's interesting that Acts 8 came up, because there really are several things in that chapter, and especially that passage, that should probably be discussed.

    The passage is Acts 8:4-25.

    Some of the things I see to be considered: Simon, who practiced sorcery, but was highly regarded by the people for it; i.e., he did the same things the apostles were doing, but then Philip came along and they saw the true power of God (in other words, evidence of fake healings, etc. even in that time).

    The people of Samaria believed and were baptized; but the passage says that they didn't receive the Holy Spirit until Peter and John laid hands on them (brings up the question of "were they saved?")

    Why Philip was able to work miracles, and the people believed and were baptised through his preaching; but the people didn't receive the Holy Spirit until Peter and John came along.

    Simon believed, and was baptized; but Peter later told him that his heart was not right, and Simon asked him to pray for him. The lesson is there, but the resolution is not evident; if Peter prayed for him, if Simon got right, and/or if Simon did any more than simply get right with God (i.e., ever spoke in tongues or worked other miracles).

    Just some things to ponder.

    And atestring, is it possible that people are questioning because somehow, deep down, through the conviction of God, they know something is wrong with it?
     
  17. MEE

    MEE <img src=/me3.jpg>

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Don:
    It's interesting that Acts 8 came up, because there really are several things in that chapter, and especially that passage, that should probably be discussed.

    The passage is Acts 8:4-25.

    Some of the things I see to be considered: Simon, who practiced sorcery, but was highly regarded by the people for it; i.e., he did the same things the apostles were doing, but then Philip came along and they saw the true power of God (in other words, evidence of fake healings, etc. even in that time).

    MEE:
    Don, where does it say that Simon did the *same* things the apostles were doing? Like fake healings? My Bible says he was practicing *sorcery* and bewitched the people of Samaria. This IS NOT what the apolstles were doing!

    The people of Samaria believed and were baptized; but the passage says that they didn't receive the Holy Spirit until Peter and John laid hands on them (brings up the question of "were they saved?")

    MEE:
    No! Because the Bible says that one has to be born of *WATER* and of the *SPIRIT.* (John 3:5) If, and I say *if* it was enough for one to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and to be baptized, the people should have been OK, according to most doctrines that you hear preached today. BTW, some don't even believe that you have to be baptized.


    Why Philip was able to work miracles, and the people believed and were baptised through his preaching; but the people didn't receive the Holy Spirit until Peter and John came along.

    MEE:
    Keep in mind that Philip had the baptism of the Holy Ghost and was baptized. He had the power, through the Spirit, to work miracles. The people were still in need of the birth of the Spirit. If you notice, the Spirit of God never fell, on anyone, until Peter been there first. He had the keys to the kingdom. (Acts 2:38)


    Simon believed, and was baptized; but Peter later told him that his heart was not right, and Simon asked him to pray for him. The lesson is there, but the resolution is not evident; if Peter prayed for him, if Simon got right, and/or if Simon did any more than simply get right with God (i.e., ever spoke in tongues or worked other miracles).

    MEE:
    I don't believe that it says one way or the other about what happened to Simon.

    Just some things to ponder.

    And atestring, is it possible that people are questioning because somehow, deep down, through the conviction of God, they know something is wrong with it?
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    MEE:
    Don, I don't think that is the case. People are very hungry for the things of God. That is why they are eager to learn more about the things that they don't understand. Just like in Acts 8:10) (referring to Simon) To whom they all gave heed, from the least to the greatest, saying, This man is the great power of God.

    They, like others, are hungry for the things of God. [​IMG]

    MEE
     
  18. Don

    Don Well-Known Member
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    Very good reference, MEE. They went from revering Simon, a man who had been working "miracles" for them, to Philip, a true man of God.
     
  19. MEE

    MEE <img src=/me3.jpg>

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Don:
    Very good reference, MEE. They went from revering Simon, a man who had been working "miracles" for them, to Philip, a true man of God.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Don, I don't know just how you mean this quote.

    Simon was not working "miracles." He was using *sorcery* and bewitched the people of Samaria, giving out that himself was some great one: HE WAS DECIEVING THE PEOPLE *FALSLY* and he knew it. They believed in him, most likely, because they were hungry for the things of God. Now Philip, He was working miricales, through the power of God.

    If I misunderstood you....Sorry!

    MEE
     
  20. atestring

    atestring New Member

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Don:
    It's interesting that Acts 8 came up, because there really are several things in that chapter, and especially that passage, that should probably be discussed.

    The passage is Acts 8:4-25.

    Some of the things I see to be considered: Simon, who practiced sorcery, but was highly regarded by the people for it; i.e., he did the same things the apostles were doing, but then Philip came along and they saw the true power of God (in other words, evidence of fake healings, etc. even in that time).

    The people of Samaria believed and were baptized; but the passage says that they didn't receive the Holy Spirit until Peter and John laid hands on them (brings up the question of "were they saved?")

    Why Philip was able to work miracles, and the people believed and were baptised through his preaching; but the people didn't receive the Holy Spirit until Peter and John came along.

    Simon believed, and was baptized; but Peter later told him that his heart was not right, and Simon asked him to pray for him. The lesson is there, but the resolution is not evident; if Peter prayed for him, if Simon got right, and/or if Simon did any more than simply get right with God (i.e., ever spoke in tongues or worked other miracles).

    Just some things to ponder.

    And atestring, is it possible that people are questioning because somehow, deep down, through the conviction of God, they know something is wrong with it?
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    I can appreciate a person wanting to be sure that sopmething is of God.
    I would not want anything to do with something that was not of God.
    We must study daily to see if something is of God.
    We must also throw out traditions of men that make the word of God of no effect.
    When we are not sure ( in our own heart ) as to wheither something is of God or not we should judge it like Gamaliel judge things in Acts 5:38-39
    IF THIS COUNSEL OR THIS WORK BE OF MEN IT WILL COME TO NOUGHT.
    BUT IF IT BE OF GOD WE CANNOT OVERTHROW IT:
    LEST HAPLY YE BE FOUND EVEN TO FIGHT AGAINST GOD.
    Look around and ask as to wheither "Pentecostalism" is coming to nought.
    "Worldwide there are more Pentecostals than there are Baptist, Mehtodist ,Episcopal, Church of Christ, Prebryterians or any other protestant groups.(In the U.S. this is not the case but Pentecostalism is growing at a faster pace than any other Christian movement.
    look at the world evangelism going on and see how much of it is open to Speaking in tongues, and other manifestations.
    If this is not of God it will come to nought.
    If it is of God then Get in on what God is doing.
    If you are not sure then set back and watch and leave it alone ,but be sure to not to fight it because if it is of God you would be fighting God.

    [ January 26, 2002: Message edited by: atestring ]
     
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