The Gathering of the Church/the Rapture

Downsville,

You said, 'If theres but 1 rapture,how does God gather the flock above. My guess is that it will be in the twinkling of an eye.'

I did forget to say that some dispensationalists believe that the O.T. saints will arise and ascend at a different time than Christians who lived and died in Christ since the Crucifixion. The church's ascension is yet to come. [I Thess.4:13-18] The reason they say this is because vs.
16 says that only ' . . . the dead in Christ' signifying saints since Christ's death until the time of the Rapture. I would have to search a lot to find where and when they believe the O.T. saints will be raptured into Heaven. Sorry, I cannot offer up this information at this moment.

By the way, if you study carefully you will find that the Rapture is called the Day of Christ, [II Thess. 2:2] while the Great Tribulation and the Second Coming refers to, the Day of the Lord.' [I Thess. 5:2 & II Peter 3:10]

 

No where in the O.T. are saints said to be 'in Christ.' Neither are the future martyrs recorded in Revelation called by the term, to be 'in Christ.' There is no contention that all three groups will be saved and enter Heaven, but the Biblical writers had a purpose in saying that a certain era of saints were and are called, those who are 'in Christ.' Since the Cross until the Rapture Christians live and die and are said to be in Christ. May Christians in concluding a letter to another person would sign it:

In Christ,
Ray

 

Downsville,

You said, 'Well Ray, 1 Thes.4 is also the DAY of the Lord'

Actually, I Thess. 4 is the Day of Christ. It is His day because He takes His church into Heaven and concludes His truth in this chapter by saying through Paul, ' . . . comfort one another with these words.' It is Christ's day because it is the day of His triumph and in Heaven there will be what the Bible says as the Marriage of the Lamb, followed by the Marriage Supper of the Lamb.

Then Paul goes into the Day of the Lord in chapter five of I Thessalonians and then speaks of 'sudden destruction cometh on them [vs. 3] (not us--Christians). Paul again comforts his congregation at Thessalonica by saying in verse nine, that 'God has not appointed us {Christians} to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ . . . . He died for us (Christians) and again offers words of comfort and benediction saying, . . . . comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.'

 

eschatologist,

You said, 'I believe you may have underestimated just what I do know! You have
addressed several eschatological points here so I will attempt to cover each
one.

First, In 2Peter 3:10 the Greek word for elements(stoicheia) is used in only
two places in the New Testament, and that being in Galatians. It did not
mean the 'earthly' elements, but it meant the elemental foundations of the
Jewish law(system).

Ray is saying, 'That's a spin on the Scripture that I frankly never heard before. Clever!
Because the fire of God will burn up the earth, He points to the necessity a 'new Heaven and the new earth' also mentioned in Revelation 21:1-2. The author of the Book of Hebrews very well explained the conclusion of the Jewish faith and its replacement [Hebrews 8:13] with a better New Covenant. [Hebrews 8:6] of Christ's grace. [Ephesians 2:8-9] Your concept is foreign to II Peter chapter five.

You said, 'So also, when we were children, we were in slavery under the basic
principles(stoicheia) of the world... But now that you know God-- or rather
are known by God-- how is it that you are turning back to those weak and
miserable principles(stoicheia)? Do you wish to be enslaved by them all over
again?(Gal.4:3,9)

These examples are very clearly refering to the elements(principles) of the
Jewish system(Law). So just as Peter had earlier stated that "the end of all
things is near"(1Pet.4:7), so I believe that the ending to which he refered to
that was "near" was the very ending and removal of this Jewish system. And
yes it was destroyed in a fiery event, as their city, temple, documents and
system met its end by the onslaught of the Roman armies, which by the
way was completely destroyed with fire. Just read some of Josephus'
writings concerning this event. And this destruction was prepared by
God(Rom.9:22,28). Micah in his propheies about the Assyrian invasion and
destruction of Israel used similar mountain melting language. Surely this was
not meant to be taken literary! You can also find this similar language in
Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Joel and Zephaniah. If you would like I will later roll
out verses in these books which clearly use this apocayptic(stars falling, sun
darkening, earthquakes, etc.) imagery in terms as 'Day of the Lord,' for
which its fulfillment resulted in the destruction of nations by the Assyrians,
Babylonians, or the Medes and Perians.

Ray is saying, I could see some significance to your words, and that is a gaping, stretch, if they would have been placed in the Book of Hebrews, but not in II Peter. I think you might catch the drift of my suggestion.'

You said, 'If someone would interpret these to be planet and universe ending events, then you would have to believe that God had to re-create the elements several times over!!!

Ray is saying, No only one more time as recorded in Revelation 21:1-2. Eschatologist, in verse one that 'the first earth had passed away . . . ,' just as I told you when I pointed you to II Peter 3:10 and on.'

You said, 'Second, your reference to the "last days." There must have been several
verse in scripture that have eluded your understanding. I will address some
of these, then you tell me as to when the Apostles and 1st century christians
believed it would occur:

In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many
times and in various ways, but in THESE LAST DAYS he HAS SPOKEN to us
BY HIS SON, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he
made the universe(Heb.1:1,2; emphasis mine).

You gold and silver are corroded. Their corrosion will testify against you and
eat your flesh like fire. You have hoarded wealth in the last days(Jam.5:3).

who through faith are shielded by God's power until the coming of salvation
that is READY TO BE REVEALED IN THE LAST TIME... He was chosen before
the creation of the world, but WAS REVEALED IN THESE LAST TIMES FOR
YOUR SAKE(1Pet.1:5,20).

Dear children, THIS IS THE LAST HOUR: and as you have heard that the
antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how we
know IT IS THE LAST HOUR(1Jo.2:18).

In the last days, God says,I will pour out my Spirit on all people...(Acts
2:17a).

In every one of these accounts it is apparent that the time in which they
spoke of the "Last Days" were in their own time. And these verses tie in to
the other New Testament passages like thread in a garment. What I would
love to see is what your interpretation of these might be.'

Ray is saying, 'All of your data above is Scriptural, but the writers of the epistles did not know how far off in their future the Rapture would be, nor any of the other eschatological events such as the Great Tribulation, the Second Coming of Christ and other events. The O.T. prophets did not know how many years down the line it would be until the virgin would conceive. They did know that it would happen because God prompted them to prophecy this exacting truth about Jesus and what city in which He would be born. The Prophet Micah said the city would be Bethlehem, as you well know. [Micah 5:2] He did not know if Mary would deliver 100 years, 300 years, or even a 1,000 years from his uttered time of prophecy.

You said, 'I would love to discuss them with you in the future.'

I will say in the words of Senator John Kerry, the probable Democratic nominee who is running for President of the United States, 'Bring it on!'

 

The next great event on God's calendar of human history will be the catching away of the saints to Heaven. This includes the church those who have died since Pentecost until the day that He comes for His church.

There is an interesting Greek word, {the base word-harpazo} that is mentioned in Acts 8:39; II Corinthians 12:2; I Thessalonians 4:17 and Revelation 12:5.

In Acts 8:39 Phillip led the Ethiopian man to Christ and baptized him. The Lord wanted Phillip in the town of Azotus immediately and took him from the baptismal scene directly to named city. He was seized/caught up to another location.

In II Corinthians 12:2 apparently the Apostle Paul was 'caught up' into Heaven in a true scene of reality and not merely a dream. He saw the glory of Heaven and probably also saw the Lord enthroned.

I Thessalonians 4:17 is probably known best by most Christians. This is the Day of Christ when Jesus will come for His church and the dead in Christ, [I Thess. 4:16d] those in the graves will be resurrected {I Corinthians 15} and the remaining Christians who are alive on earth at His coming will be 'caught up' [Gr. harpagasometha] into the clouds to forever be with the Lord. This in all orthodox theological commentaries is the Rapture of His holy Church.

And lastly, in Revelation 12:5 refers to Christ who will ' . . . rule all nations with a rod of iron; and her child was 'caught up' [hargastha] unto God, and His throne.' This clearly speaks of the reign of Christ on the earth [Zechariah 14:9 & 17] and in the N.T. in Revelation 21:24]. The caught up aspect of this verse points to Jesus ascension into Heaven to prepared a place for all saints of all time. [John 14:1-3]

Each of these references to 'the catching away' comes from the base word, 'harpazo.' In each incident there was a miracle that took place at that given time.

Perhaps the least recognized by Christians is in the case of Phillip who was bodily transferred to another town. Indeed, our Almighty God is God of miracles!

The events that are already in the past are: The Ethiopian convert/and Phillip's bodily transfer to another city, the ascension of Jesus into Heaven, and Paul being caught up into Heaven to see things future.

The remaining events are that of the Rapture of the church into Heaven and the future Kingdom Age on the earth of 1,000 years. [Revelation chapter 20]

Berrian, Th.D.

 

Downsville,

I gather that you believe that the Lord is going to take His church through the unprecadented tortures of all of His Seal, Trumpet and Vial Judgments. Why would he torture that which He loves? And the add on, for you I think, is that all living Christians will go through the Great Tribulation in relation to being killed, [Rev. 13:15 & Rev. 20:4] where all will be beheaded by this one world ruler called the Antichrist.

These above events are a judgment on all unrepentant sinners who miss the {harpazo}; [I Thess. 4:17] but will never be administered/executed on those who Jesus loves eternally, which is the Christian Church. What would be the Lord's purpose in physically killing all Christians, at the hand of the Antichrist?

 

Tam,

I agree with you. In America we see violence but no one is being persecuted for going to either their church, synagogue, Temple, or mosque. Some even think that the grand kingdom of God is going to be set up on this earth if we witness.

Tell that to Christians living in all of the countries of Africa, China, Indonesia and other places like North Korea. They would be more likely to see the Great Tribulation coming right around the corner.

Keep looking up, the Lord is coming for His church, because the Lord our God ' . . . has not appointed us to wrath, {of the Great Tribulation} but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ.' [I Thess.5:9] Jesus is not going to destroy Christians with the Seal, Trumpet and Vial Judgments because we are the Bride of Christ not His estranged enemies who are still in their sins.