The diffrence of Tongues in Acts and at Corinth

I checked out your link ONENESS. It didn't really tell me anything that I didn't already know. Here is what it says about your own history:

The UPCI emerged out of the Pentecostal movement that began in Topeka, Kansas in 1901. It traces its organizational roots to October 1916, when a large group of ministers withdrew from the Assemblies of God over the doctrinal issues of the oneness of God and water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ.

Your own organization admits that its history and doctrines are no older than 1901. Was the truth lost before that time? 1901 was the date when the modern tongues movement began. I have been saying this all along. Tongues ceased around 70 A.D., or the end of the first century at the very latest. Then they were unheard of until 1901. This is from your own website. I guess all those great Christians that lived between those years of 70 A.D. and 1901 never had the Holy Spirit??
DHK

 

No, that is not what the UPCI is saying. Here you are *twisting* truth again.

The UPCI broke away from the Assemblies of God, which is of the Trinity doctrine. The link didn't say that their doctrine was new and started in Topeka Kansas 1901.

You seem to forget the post back on page 10 about the subject of 'tongues' and that they have been around since the Day of Pentecost. THEY HAVE NOT CEASED!

 

Where?

It says if you believe then you will receive the Holy Ghost. I don't see anywhere that says we should ask for the Holy Ghost.

It doesn't say you shall receive if you ask! Where does this say ask for the Holy Ghost?

In the words of Paul in the book of Acts

The Bible says if I believe, I will be saved. God promised His Spirit to all those who come to Him. Either I have the Spirit, or God is a liar.

~Lorelei

 

I haven't had much time to post either, but I too would like to see this answered.

Actually after all these pages, I haven't seen anything that supports the title of this thread. Of course I am not amazed, I know that there is no "evidence" of speaking in tongues, only the "gift" and not all have been given it.

~Lorelei

 

Wow! Lorelei! How's the baby doing? How are y'all?

Saw Chet post up in a different section, and even something from swaimj; been a long time since I've seen anything from y'all.

 

Originally posted by Don:

Not a single answer from anyone about why the Samarians had to wait for the apostles to lay hands on them to receive the Holy Spirit instead of receiving it upon being baptized by Phillip....

I am sorry about not answering this before. I do not know why Phillip did not lay hands upon them, He was preaching the gospel, and baptizing them in water, as they repented,perhaps it was just the timing. The scriptures did not specify the reason why.

Naomi, I have a slight conundrum for your "unknown tongue" interpretation: The apostles at Pentecost were speaking in unknown tongues, too (not just languages, but unknown languages). How do I know this? Because of the reaction of the people who heard them: "Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans? And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?" So even the people there were basically stating that the apostles were speaking in unknown tongues (tongues--languages--not previously known to the speaker...like me speaking in Russian, or French).

In my mind, that takes your theory that Acts 2 is different languages and 1 Corinthians 14 is unknown tongues and shoots it to pieces.

On the contrary! It shows how tongues were for a sign for the unbeliever in the book of Acts, and the tongues that Paul was referring to was the tongues for the believer's used in a church service.
Naomi

 

LOL! Do you realize that our God is a consuming Fire ?
Also note these scriptures! Fire used as a symbol for Gods very presence....Gen 15:17,(The burning bush) Exodus 13:2 (on Sinai) Exodus 19:18, Acts 2:3.
Fire is used to symbolize more than just Hell.
Naomi One to grow on!

 

Isn't it wonderful that you agree with someone's opinion, and not the Word of God. Go back and read my response to his post.
DHK</font>[/QUOTE]Huh?

 

Originally posted by The Briguy:
Naomi writes:
""""I cannot operate in the gift of healing whenever I want.""""

Hi Naomi, I was guessing you may say something like this, though I was hoping you wouldn't. You seem to have your own ideals for spiritual gifts, which is nice but not advisable. Spiritual gifts, as the Bible explains, are not gifts that are only in operation when God chooses to let us use them. Like with any gift you get from someone once you have the "gift" it is yours and you use it as YOU will. Lets say a gift from your friend is a stereo. You set it up and then you determine when to turn it on and what songs to play, etc... it is YOUR gift and now belongs to you. Your friend does not have to come over and turn it on each time you think you may want to use it. It is the same with the spiritual gifts that God gives us.

Brian, This is a nice "hypothesis" but we cannot compare spiritual matters to what our intellect tells us. If we think we are in control of who gets healed, or who gets raised from the dead, we would be on television for sure! I never, ever claimed to be in control of who gets healed. I am told to pray for the sick. If God chooses to heal them, all the Glory goes to Him, not me! I am nothing. He is everthing! My claim is this: I am filled with the Holy Spirit, He lives inside of me, therefore, if He chooses to heal someone through me, and He quickens my mortal body to lay hands upon someone, I will do it. With full knowledge that it is God, not me doing the healing. I am but a vessel. I will not quench the Holy Spirit! I will also not make a show out of it.
The use of Tongues in the context that I speak, is a "Prayer Language" My mind is unfruitful at the time, but my spirit is not. Sometimes we do not know what to pray, but the spirit can interceed through us. I have the choice as far as when to do this. Just like we all have the choice when to pray, and how often to pray. I do not have the choice of what gift will operate through me. I am willing to be used by the Holy Spirit. I have never raised the dead, I believe God can do it though. My opinion is that God could not trust me to do this, because I would probably get so excited I would publish a book on it!
Tongues is the only gift that we could use when we want. Not the others.


In the modern church God gives special abilities and desires to his children so that local bodies are "complete" bodies as described in 1 Cor. 12. The gifts of healing, miracles, tongues, and interpretation of tongues were foundational to the church but are not active in the church of 2002. We know this by the simple fact that no one can DO these things anymore.

I very humbly disagree!

Do you see the distinction. REAL gifts are used when WE want so if someone had the gift of tongues they could at anytime speak any language they wanted and someone with the gift of interpretation could interpret the language spoken, anytime they wanted. Christians do not do this today or they would be doing it on camera for all do see.

Well, my friend....some do! LOL!

It is the same with miracles (raising the dead) and healing. If the gifts were here we would have Christians clearing hostipals and raising the dead all over the place, but we don't see that and so we KNOW those gifts are gone.

Not everyone was healed in the New Testament! Jesus Himself did not heal everyone. Yet, you think we should be emptying the hospitals?

For all other gifts that God does still give out we continue to use when we want. Preachers never get up and say I was going to speak today but God didn't power my gift so I can't speak. This just doesn't happen, in fact most preachers can't seem to stop talking

You get a big amen for this one!

Anyway, please think and study about spiritual gifts with these thoughts in mind.

Okay!
Take care,
In Love and Truth,
Brian

 

Noami:

I may have missed the answer to a question I will ask again. I'm going to try to make this very simple with one question at a time, if I can.

You said that we non-tongue speakers are saved if we are indeed Christians. You or Mee or someone, also said that you seek the Holy Ghost and not seek tongue speaking and that tongue speaking comes AFTER you have the Holy Ghost. Now, as others have said, more times than one, we who believe in the Trinity also believe that we GET the Holy Ghost when we are saved as it is a part of salvation. We are Baptised in the name of the Father, the Son AND the Holy Ghost. Now a two part question:

Why do you seek the Holy Ghost when you should already have it and why do we who have the Holy Ghost, not ever even feel the need to speak in tongues? Something here sounds wrong on your side as it seems that you are saying things one way and then turn around and say the opposite. Either we aren't saved and do not have the Holy Ghost(based on why you seek it), or, you and the tongue speaking community are chasing a lame duck! In this scenario, you can't have the cake and eat it too!

You just made a comment about TV and that brought Benny Hinn to mind. Anyone who believes in him needs to see a shrink. He is the most obvious fraud that exists, claiming to be a healer, tongue speaker and what ever else. He is really fleecing the flock. It amuses me to see him line up supposedly sick people, like a line of dominoes, blowing at them, and BINGO, they fall over and are healed. Who needs doctors and hospitals when we have Hinn.......and many others like him.

God Bless.............Alex

 

ONENESS,
You have avoided answering Lorelei's question with Scripture. You have only talked around it. You and MEE have also avoided mine. You have failed to demonstrate that you can give the plan of salvation outside of the Book of Acts. Is all of your theology contained in just one book?
DHK

 

And y'all avoid answering my last post, as it has you trapped to admitting that we OR you are wrong and it wasn't a hard question to answer!

 

Did you read the verse in context? Did you read the instructions Jesus gave the disciples at the beginning of the chapter?

One of his disciples asked Him specifically to teach them to pray.

Here is what Jesus taught them:

This is how we are to pray, I See we ask Him to give us our daily bread, for forgiveness, for His kingdom to come, but not some second blessing Holy Spirit baptism.

He then explains how those who are wicked even give thier children good things. How much more will God give to those who ask.

The problem you make is separating the Holy Ghost from salvation. You make it a two part, or several part process. It doesn't happen in peices, it all happens at once. Once we believe, the repentance comes from believing that knowledge. God then keeps His promise and we are filled at that moment.

God will give the Holy Ghost to those who ask. He gives it to each of us who seek Him and ask Him to come into our lives. Asking for Christ is asking for the Holy Ghost, for once you receive Christ, once you repent and believe, the Holy Ghost is there.

In the same set of verses Jesus says:

I have asked, I seek God and I have found Him. I didn't seek what people like you tell me to seek, I seek after God and He has opened the door and has entered in my life.

We are the ones who are making the verses in question be in harmony with the whole of scripture. You find this one verse in Luke and try to make it say that those who already believe are supposed to then ask for what God already promised us.

The Apostles were praying because God told them to wait, why were the Samaritans waiting? Why didn't they just ask? Why didn't Philip explain to them they had to ask? Why didn't Philip lay hands on them?

Your verses don't tie, they tear. You are trying to "tie" things together that aren't there and in the process are ripping out peices that are crystal clear!

Paul said:

You admit that your church does not always do this

Paul said:

Yet your church allows women to speak in tongues.

Paul said:

You try to claim that command was only for the Corinthians.

You are trying to tie together your theology with the Word of God and it can't be done. Instead of tying the Word in knots, try weaving the Word together as a whole, you will soon see, that you don't need to ignore one verse to make them all speak the truth.

~Lorelei

 

That isn't what Paul said in 1 Corinthians:

There was only one gift of tongues and they are discussed in both Acts and 1 Corinthians. No where does anyone refer to a tongue that is the "evidence" or a "prayer language". It just isn't there.

You mind is always to be fruitful, and that is what Paul was telling us.

No where does Paul say this is how it is to be, instead he says:

My mind is unfruitful therefore I will pray with both the Spirit and the mind (understanding) and how will I do this?

Those 3 verses are stuck together for a reason. I did not have to dig and find them in other sections of the Bible, in 3 verses Paul explains that we must interpret so that we can understand. He never says to do otherwise is acceptable.

This indeed is speaking of the Spirit interceding for us, but this is not through tongues. After all, it intercedes with "groanings that cannot be uttered". If you can't speak it at all, it isn't a tongue.

~Lorelei

[ August 04, 2002, 03:02 PM: Message edited by: Lorelei ]

 

Originally posted by Lorelei:

There was only one gift of tongues and they are discussed in both Acts and 1 Corinthians. No where does anyone refer to a tongue that is the "evidence" or a "prayer language". It just isn't there.

It is there. Allow me to show you:

1 Corinthians 14:4
He that speaketh in an [unknown] tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.

which would coincide with:
Jude 1:20 Building up ourselves on our most Holy Faith, praying in the Holy Ghost.

Our spirit is edified. Therefore, just as Paul states, we are edifying ourselves. This is when we are in prayer, not in a church service.

As paul states:
14:2 2 For he that speaketh in an [unknown] tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth [him]; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

No man understands him. He is speaking unto God, not other men.
Again, this would contradict tongues being used as a sign to the unbeliever, as no man understands him.

For i if I pray in an [unknown] tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.

John 3:6 states: That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the spirit is spirit.

John 6:63 states that the Spirit quickens, but the flesh profits nothing.

Ro 8:10
And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

Ro 8:27
And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

Php 3:3
For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.

Paul is instructing the church in the use of spiritual gifts in a church service. He is telling the church to pray using tongues, but when you are in a church service, do not do so, unless there is an interpreter. This will edify the church. We do not go to church to only build ourselves up, we go to edify others. Prophecy edifies the entire church. God is speaking to everyone, via. the Pastor, the speaker, or one to another. This is the context Paul is using.

Paul used statements such as:

14:18 8 I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:

as well as:

14:39 18 Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.

Yes, we will pray in the spirit, (our understanding is unfruitful)
and we will pray with understanding, as in: "Lord, I pray that my brother will be healed", or "Lord, I pray for my friends Marriage to grow stronger"....etc. That is using my understanding.
But forbid not to speak in tongues.
Just use order when using this spiritual prayer language.



Lorelei:

15What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.My mind is unfruitful therefore I will pray with both the Spirit and the mind (understanding) and how will I do this?
13Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret.

in the church service, so that all could be edified.

Those 3 verses are stuck together for a reason. I did not have to dig and find them in other sections of the Bible, in 3 verses Paul explains that we must interpret so that we can understand. He never says to do otherwise is acceptable.

Yes, they are together because he is explaining to the church how to use spiritual gifts in a service, so there is not confusion. We must also look at other scriptures to support our beliefs.

Originally posted by Naomi:
Sometimes we do not know what to pray, but the spirit can interceed through us.

Lorelei:
This indeed is speaking of the Spirit interceding for us, but this is not through tongues. After all, it intercedes with "groanings that cannot be uttered". If you can't speak it at all, it isn't a tongue.

Romans 8:26Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered Lorelei

Ro 8:23
And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

How are we doing this?

or this?
Ro 8:27
And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

1Co 2:14
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Eph 6:18
Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;

God Bless,
Naomi

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