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The Catholics link to Idolatry from Ancient Baylon

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by john6:63, Nov 19, 2003.

  1. trying2understand

    trying2understand New Member

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    To be honest, you've mentioned it on the board before.

    And I also remember that fact from visiting various Churches during my Seminary days.

    Ron [​IMG]
     
  2. john6:63

    john6:63 New Member

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    Once again I refer you to Exodus 25:18, 26:31. God doesn’t forbid making an image of something for artistic purpose. God FORBIDS the making of images as an aid to worship.


    Then don’t use it as an aid to worship. Answer this please, why then did Jeremiah feel that he needed to record the Babylonians traditions? Do you honestly see no similarities between these traditions between the Babylonians and the Catholics?

    Good, then why do the Catholics seem to use these statues as an aid to worship? You can’t tell me that the Catholics don’t use these as an aid in worship.

    What? Have you studied the Bible at all? You know my wife’s relatives are Catholic and I’m amazed at how their knowledge of the Bible is very limited.

    John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us… Is Jesus still dwelling among us in the flesh? No, He left a ‘Helper’ or the Holy Spirit, hence the Trinity.

    I do ask one other question from you. Please provide scripture when backing your thoughts. Where statues were ever used as the Catholics use them today? There has to be scripture somewhere that the Catholics used to incorporate this tradition. Right?
     
  3. trying2understand

    trying2understand New Member

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    What part of Exodus 25:18 and Exodus 26:31 tells you that?

    Scrpitural citation, please.
    As I said, superfical only.


    Jesus ascended into Heaven, but He did not cease to exist.

    Jesus is not pure spirit. Scripture does not tell us that His corporal body ceased to exist.

    Sounds like you are on your way to inventing a new herasy.

    You believe that the entire history of the Church is contained in the Bible?

    Exodus 25:18-20
    1Chr 28:18-19
    Ezekiel 41:17-18
    Numbers 21:8-9
    1Kings 6:29-32
    1Kings 8:6-66
    2Chr 3:7-14
     
  4. GraceSaves

    GraceSaves New Member

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    And this is why you will forever be wrong. God never said that. You did. Not God. God said not to worship graven images. He said nothing about using them as an aid to worship.

    It doesn't get more simple than that. And if you cannot provide an honest argument, I don't know if I should bother. GOD DID NOT SAY WHAT YOU SAID HE SAID.
     
  5. john6:63

    john6:63 New Member

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    The part where God instructs. And thou shalt make…

    Exodus 20:4, you know then commandment where the Catholic Church accidentally skipped?

    Strikingly coincidental though.

    You’re right, BUT, He’s also no longer dweling amoung us in the flesh either.

    The post were I refered you to John 4:24, I’ll quote the verse:
    This is our Lord Jesus speaking here. Now, you sure I’m inventing a new heresy?

    Paul by inspiration of the Holy Spirit, recorded and set the standards that Churches should use. Man shouldn’t invent them along the way.
     
  6. GraceSaves

    GraceSaves New Member

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    By the way, while you responded, you did not answer my question; you dodged it by asking me questions in return. It matters not if God sanctioned the Church to make images or not. You say that God demands that we not use images as an "aid to worship," but the Ark, in you own words, was used JUST FOR THAT. Therefore, sanctioned or not, you are left with the choices that:

    1) You are wrong, and images are perfectly acceptable of worship of the ONE TRUE GOD, or

    2) God asked man to break the law he told them previously not to break.

    2 is false, because God would not ask us to break His own law, thus 1 must be true.
     
  7. Jerry Shugart

    Jerry Shugart New Member

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    trying2understand,

    You attempt to justify your idolatry is not even worthy of a school child.No one "bows down" to photographs of departed family members.Here is the "context" of the commandment not to make carved images:

    "Thou shalt not make unto thee any carved image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
    5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them..."(Ex.20:4,5).

    The act of "bowing down" is in regard to "worship",and the Lord does not want any believer to be "bowing down" to anyone or anything other than Himself:

    "O come, let us worship and bow down: let us kneel before the LORD our maker"(Ps.95:6).

    I can just see the idolaters explaining their behavior to the Lord in that day when they come face to face with the Lord,saying:

    "But you yourself told the Israelites to make images,so I thought that if it was alright for you then it must be alright for me."

    "And if it is OK to have photographs of our departed ones then surely it is OK to make carved images and bow down to them."

    All I can say is I would not want to be you in that day when "God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ".

    Here is the Lord's opinion of those who "bowed down" to the images of "the queen of heaven" (and what a coincidence,that is exactly the same name that Rome has given to Mary):

    "The children gather wood, and the fathers kindle the fire, and the women knead their dough, to make cakes to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto other gods, that they may provoke Me to anger"(Jer.7:18).

    You will be without excuse because you have been told the truth concerning idolatry on this forum,and if you think that the anger of GOd will be appeased by your flimsy excuses you will be in for a big surprise.The Lord will not be mocked without serious consequences.

    In His grace,--Jerry
     
  8. GraceSaves

    GraceSaves New Member

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    Actually, Bob, the source did not say that, but as usual, you'll take something and twist it to whatever mold you need to fill. Here is what it said:

    the gentile had local gods for their town or country, and our Christian Saints eventually supplanted Them!

    It does not imply a continuation. It means that the practice of saintly intercession SUPPLANTED, or replaced, the practice of praying to household gods. One practice is replacing another, not the same practicing continuing with different names. You came with that assertion and forced it into the text, but that is not what the text says.
     
  9. GraceSaves

    GraceSaves New Member

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    Will God be pleased by your lying, Jerry? Where does it say anything about bowing down to the Queen of Heaven? I see them making cakes and pouring out drink offerings to "other gods." If you find someone making cakes or making offerings to Mary as if she were God, lemme know their names, and I'll write a letter to their bishops, because the practice should be stopped.

    However, there was no "bowing down," which you said there was. There was explicit worshipping by making sacrifices to the "queen of heaven." Not the same thing, Jerry. Not the same thing at all.
     
  10. john6:63

    john6:63 New Member

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    And this is why you will forever be wrong. God never said that. You did. Not God. God said not to worship graven images. He said nothing about using them as an aid to worship.

    It doesn't get more simple than that. And if you cannot provide an honest argument, I don't know if I should bother. GOD DID NOT SAY WHAT YOU SAID HE SAID.
    </font>[/QUOTE]Let me ask you a question. You think it’s ok to use these statues of the apostles and Mary to aid in worship?

    If your answer is YES, then how can it be said that God is a jealous God?

    If your answer is No, then why do Catholics utilize the statues the way they do? If Gods having to share your heart with an apostle or Mary, do you think this tradition would cause a jealous God? If NO, why?
     
  11. GraceSaves

    GraceSaves New Member

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    Instead of answering mine? All too typical.

    I wouldn't do it if I didn't.

    Because God does not wish us to worship "any god before him." And I do not. My love for God is greater than any other love in my life.

    Should not our entire lives be lives of prayer and worship? And yet in the beginning, God made woman for man so that "he would not be alone." Really, I thought he was with God? You see, apparently God is not jealous of the true love we have for our brothers and sisters in Christ; after all, they are gifts in our lives, and love itself is a gift. God is jealous of false love given to creation that is due to him; putting creature above God. That does not mean that we are too ignore God's gifts in our lives when we worship Him; rather, we thank Him for those gifts! We thank Him for blessing us with pious men and women whose lives allow us to reflect more deeply on our own need of a relationship with God.

    By honoring the saints, we are saying "Thank you God! Assist my life with your love and bring it to perfection as you have in these your children, our brothers and sisters!"

    How can God be jealous of true love when that is a gift from Himself?

    NOW, please answer MY questions.
     
  12. john6:63

    john6:63 New Member

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    Please, as I said the Ark was the center of worship, when the Ark was residing in the Temple in the Holy of Holies. God stated that he would dwell in a cloud between the wings of the cherubim above the Mercy Seat, see Lev. 16:2.

    They weren’t worshiping the Ark! They were worshiping GOD! Who dwelled in a cloud above the Mercy Seat! See Lev. 16:2.

    The curtain was torn from top to bottom when they crucified our Lord! Man is now free to commune with the God! Before this only Moses and later the High Priests could commune with God! Please see Num. 7:89 and Ex 25:22. Again it was God they were worshiping!

    Does God manifest Himself in the lap of St. Peter? Or in Mary’s arms?

    Please read and study your Bible.
     
  13. GraceSaves

    GraceSaves New Member

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    But you just said God commanded us not to use images to "aid in worship." How can that which is the "center of worship" not be an "aid in worship?"

    How many more times will you contradict yourself?

    Good, we're in agreement. And that continues today. Case closed.
     
  14. john6:63

    john6:63 New Member

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    When you honor this saint you are taking what belongs to God! Worship and service belongs to God and are to be given to Him alone! This is what God is jealous for. God isn’t jealous of us, but for us.

    Oh btw, I’m a saint as well and the Pope had nothing to do with it.
     
  15. GraceSaves

    GraceSaves New Member

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    I see you still have not answered my question. Such a trend.

    I suppose you do not honor your wife? Or your kids? Your parents? Oh...you do these things? But doesn't God get angry at you? Isn't he jealous of the love you give them?

    Yeah, didn't think so.

    Good. He doesn't for anyone. God makes saints; the pope recognizes them.
     
  16. john6:63

    john6:63 New Member

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    But you just said God commanded us not to use images to "aid in worship." How can that which is the "center of worship" not be an "aid in worship?"</font>[/QUOTE]If you are confused between “aid to worship” and “center of worship,” then you need to again review Ex 20:4 and compare it to the following: When you honor a statue of a saint to praise God, you are using that saint as an “aid in worship.” It’s wrong and a sin. Worship and service belong to God alone and are to be given to God alone.

    The Babylonians used statues the same way as the Catholics do. See my opening post link to The Letter of Jeremiah.

    Remember John in Revelation 22:8-9
    YOU may not fall down and worship statues, but I’ve seen Catholics do just what John did in Rev 22:8 in a parade in Spain in ’94, when a statue of Mary passed them. Any thoughts on WHY this was happening?
     
  17. john6:63

    john6:63 New Member

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    Didn’t know this Jeopardy. I’ll try and be a little faster on the buzzer Alex. :D

    LOL! It’s not that God is jealous or envious because someone has something He wants that He does not possess. God is possessive of the worship and service that belongs to Him!

    I’m not worshiping my wife and kids, silly! ;)

    The pope doesn’t have squat to do with it. Look through the letters Paul wrote in the NT. He often greeted the Christians as ‘saints.’ In addition see Romans 6:1-7; Eph 5:26 and Gal 3:26-27, we see that one is called to be a saint when he or she accepts Christ as savior, which reflects his or her sanctification by God, not the pope.

    BTW, this will be my last Post of the day. Got a busy night. My responses tomorrow will be limited, b/c I’ve neglected some work today.

    Fell free to email me at [email protected] with more specific questions, sometimes getting hit with 2 or 3 responses at one time, questions do get skipped.
     
  18. trying2understand

    trying2understand New Member

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    We don't "honor" statues.

    Nor do we "service" them.

    Nor do we "worship" them.

    But of course, you have been told this several times already.

    Shall I ask you now why you honor, worship, and service the photo images of your departed "saved" friends and family? Please don't tell me that you merely use them for rememberance.

    If you are capable of judging intent in others, why would deny my ability to do the same of you.

    BTW, where does Scripture say anything about "an aid in worship". You have totaly made this up, just as you made up your belief that Jesus is only Spirit.
     
  19. Jerry Shugart

    Jerry Shugart New Member

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    GraceSaves,

    There is plenty of evidence from secular sources that it was "Ashtoreth" who was called the "queen of heaven":

    "Astarte/Ashtoreth is the Queen of Heaven to whom the Canaanites had burned incense and poured libations."(Encyclopedia Britannica).

    And the Scriptures reveal that there were some who forsook the Lord and "bowed down" to Ashtaroth,the "queen of heaven":

    "And they forsook the LORD, and served Baal and Ashtaroth...And it came to pass, when the judge was dead, that they returned, and corrupted themselves more than their fathers, in following other gods to serve them, and to bow down unto them; they ceased not from their own doings, nor from their stubborn way"(Jud.2:13,19).

    And when Josiah came into power he destroyed the images of the "queen of heaven",Ashtoreth:

    "And the high places that were before Jerusalem, which were on the right hand of the mount of corruption, which Solomon the king of Israel had builded for Ashtoreth the abomination of the Zidonians...And he brake in pieces the images, and cut down the groves, and filled their places with the bones of men"(2Ki.23:13,14).

    You can believe that no one "bowed down" to the "queen of heaven" although they served here.You can also believe that even though they burned incense unto her and poured out drink offerings to her and made cakes to her that they did not bow down to her.

    And you can call me a "liar" for saying that they "bowed down" to the "queen of heaven",but that does not change the fact that they did in fact "bow down" to her.

    In His grace,--Jerry
     
  20. john6:63

    john6:63 New Member

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    We don't "honor" statues.</font>[/QUOTE]Quoted by GraceSaves

    I believe your fellow Catholic buddy will disagree with ya.
     
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