Do Sabbath-keepers celebrate Easter?

Don't know, don't care. God made the Sabbath for man LONG before any pagan was here, so VERY unlike those who keep the venerable day of the sun as their 'sabbath', my keeping of the seventh day, is not only RIGHT, but sanctified by God.

I'm sorry, at what point did you think I needed your help? I know exactly where the author gets his information. It is on the home page just like I keep saying. It is the other contendor who looks rediculous, throwing out accusations of plagarism without even looking at the whole site!

It's not an accusation. It is true.

History attests to it. Secular and Christian.

Look up Ishtar in an encyclopedia.

-Kelly

 

Kelly said

Gee, now how many times have I seen you say this when the shoe is reversed?

Good point. And Jesus existed with God from the very beginning, long before any pagans could do anything. I like your logic. So I can celebrate Jesus, and his ressurection as a specific event any day I choose. And you know what? When I was there last, it was a Christian celebration and Jesus was there. Where two or three are gathered together, He is there.

Ishtar, the sun god, never existed to begin with, it was FAKE, there were only sinners, sinning, fooling themselves, immagining they were really worshiping something.

Don't be sorry, you looked like you need sombody's help when talking about things you can't back up. You got mine. Boettner is another name you can add to your reference list. Glad I could help you.

I'm sorry, who cares where it is? We only want to know what it is, and you said a sermon. Sermons are not references, just like your opinions and mine are not references. Not scholarly historical references that is...

Ridiculous - 'Deserving or inspiring ridicule; absurd, preposterous, or silly. '

I'm pretty sure it's you. As someone who says outlandish and bogus historical statments, you really do appear ridiculous. (Just a side note: When calling your opponent ridiculous, it is best in that same sentence, not to mispell the word you are calling them. The irony is quite funny.)

Oh, we all know about Ishtar. "The chief Babylonian and Assyrian goddess, associated with love, fertility, and war, being the counterpart to the Phoenician Astarte." See, I actually looked it up.

We know that Christianity demolished thier pagan celebration by 'replacing' it with a real Christian one. The light shall overpower the darkness. It is your silly contention, that Christians, when they celebrate Jesus' resurection on Easter, are somehow worshiping Ishtar? Or what, you know acutally, what do you think Christians are doing on Easter???

We can clear this up easily.

Are you only applying this paganess on Easter to Catholics, or both Catholic and Protestants?

What do you contend that Christians are acutally DOING on Easter that makes it Pagan?


-Kelly

 

This is the source given from the web site 3AM gave us (stand back it is big):

Well I can't believe it. I found it, and it is the same source I advised to you for such claims. What a coincidence. The Two Babylons. Notice he says a 'great number of books', but only lists ONE. So much for sources The one we all knew was somehow lurking out there. Surprise.

As a favor, I'll bump the thread 'Two Babylons' to the top so you can see the debunking of it by those who have studied it in depth, even an author who used it as his primary source. I know, I know, you don't need any favors, but I am bumping up anyways.

Here is one exerpt from that thread that you might find interesting regarding the source you are asking all of us to trust....

 

Charles said

First you have to "make the case" for it as I have done with Christ the Creator's Seventh-day Holy day - in Gen 2:3.

If you find that in Gen 2 - we "also have" God making "week-day-1" a holy day - long before any pagans are on the planet - then you are right.

But if not..

You will need to show that pagans did not think of using "SUNday" until after the Christian traditions began to adopt it.

I look forward to reading about it.

In Christ,

Bob

 

The Decline And Fall Of The Roman Empire by Edward Gibbon

Chapter XXVIII
Oppressed,
....................................Had the Pagans been animated by the undaunted zeal which possessed the minds of the primitive believers, the triumph of the church must have been stained with blood; and the martyrs of Jupiter and Apollo might have embraced the glorious opportunity of devoting their lives and fortunes at the foot of their altars. But such obstinate zeal was not congenial to the loose and careless temper of Polytheism. The violent and repeated strokes of the orthodox princes were broken by the soft and yielding substance against which they were directed; and the ready obedience of the Pagans protected them from the pains and penalties of the Theodosian Code. (57) Instead of asserting that the authority of the gods was superior to that of the emperor, they desisted, with a plaintive murmur, from the use of those sacred rites which their sovereign had condemned. If they were sometimes tempted by a sally of passion, or by the hopes of concealment, to indulge their favourite superstition, their humble repentance disarmed the severity of the Christian magistrate, and they seldom refused to atone for their rashness by submitting, with some secret reluctance, to the yoke of the Gospel. The churches were filled with the increasing multitude of these unworthy proselytes, who had conformed, from temporal motives, to the reigning religion; and whilst they devoutly imitated the postures and recited the prayers of the faithful, they satisfied their conscience by the silent and sincere invocation of the gods of antiquity.....................................................................

The worship of the Christian martyrs
The grateful respect of the Christians for the martyrs of the faith was exalted, by time and victory, into religious adoration; and the most illustrious of the saints and prophets were deservedly associated to the honours of the martyrs. One hundred and fifty years after the glorious deaths of St. Peter and St. Paul, the Vatican and the Ostian road were distinguished by the tombs, or rather by the trophies, of those; spiritual heroes.(69)In the age which followed the conversion of Constantine, the emperors, the consuls, and the generals of armies devoutly visited the sepulchres of a tent-maker and a fisherman;(70) and their venerable bones were deposited under the altars of Christ, on which the bishops of the royal city continually offered the unbloody sacrifice. (71) The new capital of the Eastern world, unable to produce any ancient and domestic trophies, was enriched by the spoils of dependent provinces. The bodies of St. Andrew, St. Luke, and St. Timothy had reposed near three hundred years in the obscure graves from whence they were transported, in solemn pomp, to the church of the apostles, which the magnificence of Constantine had founded on the banks of the Thracian Bosphorus.(72) About fifty years afterwards the same banks were honoured by the presence of Samuel, the judge and prophet of the people of Israel. His ashes, deposited in a golden vase, and covered with a silken veil, were delivered by the bishops into each other's hands. The relics of Samuel were received by the people with the same joy and reverence which they would have shown to the living prophet; the highways, from Palestine to the gates of Constantinople, were filled with an uninterrupted procession; and the emperor Arcadius himself, at the head of the most illustrious members of the clergy and senate, advanced to meet his extraordinary guest, who had always deserved and claimed the homage of kings. (73) The example of Rome and Constantinople confirmed the faith and discipline of the catholic world. The honours of the saints and martyrs, after a feeble and ineffectual murmur of profane reason,(74) were universally established; and in the age of Ambrose and Jerom something was still deemed wanting to the sanctity of a Christian church, till it had been consecrated by some portion of holy relics, which fixed and inflamed the devotion of the faithful.

General Reflections
In the long period of twelve hundred years, which elapsed between the reign of Constantine and the reformation of Luther, the worship of saints and relics corrupted the pure and perfect simplicity of the Christian model; and some symptoms of degeneracy may be observed even in the first generations which adopted and cherished this pernicious innovation.

II Miracles
II. But the progress of superstition would have been much less rapid and victorious if the faith of the people had not been assisted by the seasonable aid of visions and miracles to ascertain the authenticity and virtue of the most suspicious relics..........................................................
If we enlarge our view to all the diocese, and all the saints, of the Christian world, it will not be easy to calculate the fables, and the errors, which issued from this inexhaustible source. But we may surely be allowed to observe that a miracle, in that age of superstition and credulity, lost its name and its merit, since it could scarcely be considered as a deviation from the ordinary and established: laws of nature.

III Revival of polytheism.
III. The innumerable miracles, of which the tombs of the martyrs were the perpetual theatre, revealed to the pious believer the actual state and constitution of the invisible world; and his religious speculations appeared to be founded on the firm basis of fact and experience. What ever might be the condition of vulgar souls in the long interval between the dissolution and the resurrection of their bodies, it was evident. that the superior spirits of the saints and martyrs did not consume that portion of their existence in silent and inglorious sleep. (81) It was evident (without presuming to determine the place of their habitation, or the nature of their felicity) that they enjoyed the lively and active consciousness of their happiness, their virtue, and their powers; and that they had already secured the possession of their eternal reward. The enlargement of their intellectual faculties surpassed the measure of the human imagination; since it was proved by experience that they were capable of hearing and understanding the various petitions of their numerous votaries, who, in the same moment of time, but in the most distant parts of the world, invoked the name and assistance of Stephen or of Martin. (82) The confidence of their petitioners was founded on the persuasion that the saints, who reigned with Christ, cast an eye of pity upon earth; that they were warmly interested in the prosperity of the Catholic church; and that the individuals who imitated the example of their faith and piety were the peculiar and favourite objects of their most tender regard. Sometimes, indeed, their friendship might be influenced by considerations of a less exalted kind: they viewed with partial affection the places which had been consecrated by their birth, their residence, their death, their burial, or the possession of their relics. The meaner passions of pride, avarice, and revenge, may be deemed unworthy of a celestial breast; yet the saints themselves condescended to testify their grateful approbation of the liberality of their votaries; and the sharpest bolts of punishment were hurled against those impious wretches who violated their magnificent shrines, or disbelieved their supernatural power. (83)Atrocious, indeed, must have been the guilt, and strange would have been the scepticism, of those men, if they had obstinately resisted the proofs of a divine agency, which the elements, the whole range of the animal creation, and even the subtle and invisible operations of the human mind, were compelled to obey.(84) The immediate, and almost instantaneous, effects, that were supposed to follow the prayer, or the offence, satisfied the Christians of the ample measure of favour and authority which the saints enjoyed in the presence of the Supreme God; and it seemed almost superfluous to inquire whether they were continually obliged to intercede before the throne of grace, or whether they might not be permitted to exercise, according to the dictates of their benevolence and justice, the delegated powers of their subordinate ministry. The imagination, which had been raised by a painful effort to the contemplation and worship of the Universal Cause, eagerly embraced such inferior objects of adoration as were more proportioned to its gross conceptions and imperfect faculties. The sublime and simple theology of the primitive Christians was gradually corrupted: and the MONARCHY of heaven, already clouded by metaphysical subtleties, was degraded by the introduction of a popular mythology which tended to restore the reign of polytheism. (85)

IV Introduction of Pagan ceremonies.
IV. As the objects of religion were gradually reduced to the standard of the imagination, the rites and ceremonies were introduced that seemed most powerfully to affect the senses of the vulgar. If, in the beginning of the fifth century,(86) Tertullian, or Lactantius, (87) had been suddenly raised from the dead, to assist at the festival of some popular saint or martyr,(88) they would have gazed with astonishment and indignation on the profane spectacle which had succeeded to the pure and spiritual worship of a Christian congregation. As soon as the doors of the church were thrown open, they must have been offended by the smoke of incense, the perfume of flowers, and the glare of lamps and tapers, which diffused, at noon-day, a gaudy, superfluous, and, in their opinion, a sacrilegious light. If they approached the balustrade of the altar, they made their way through the prostrate crowd, consisting, for the most part, of strangers and pilgrims, who resorted to the city on the vigil of the feast; and who already felt the strong intoxication of fanaticism, and, perhaps, of wine. Their devout kisses were imprinted on the walls and pavement of the sacred edifice; and their fervent prayers were directed, whatever might be the language of their church, to the bones, the blood, or the ashes of the saint, which were usually concealed, by a linen or silken veil, from the eyes of the vulgar. The Christians frequented the tombs of the martyrs, in the hope of obtaining, from their powerful intercession, every sort of spiritual, but more especially of temporal, blessings. They implored the preservation of their health, or the cure of their infirmities; the fruitfulness of their barren wives, or the safety and happiness of their children. Whenever they undertook any distant or dangerous journey, they requested that the holy martyrs would be their guides and protectors on the road; and if they returned without having experienced any misfortune, they again hastened to the tombs of the martyrs, to celebrate, with grateful thanksgivings, their obligations to the memory and relics of those heavenly patrons. The walls were hung round with symbols of the favours which they had received; eyes, and hands, and feet, of gold and silver: and edifying pictures, which could not long escape the abuse of indiscreet or idolatrous devotion, represented the image, the attributes, and the miracles of the tutelar saint.The same uniform original spirit of superstition might suggest, in the most distant ages and countries, the same methods of deceiving the credulity, and of affecting the senses of mankind89) but it must ingenuously be confessed that the ministers of the catholic church imitated the profane model which they were impatient to destroy. The most respectable bishops had persuaded themselves that the ignorant rustics would more cheerfully renounce the superstitions of Paganism, if they found some resemblance, some compensation, in the bosom of Christianity. The religion of Constantine achieved, in less than a century, the final conquest of the Roman empire: but the victors themselves were insensibly subdued by the arts of their vanquished rivals. (90)

CHRIST AND CAESER ( A history of Roman Civilization and of Christianity from their beginnings to A.D.325. By Will Durant-1944)

When Christianity conquered Rome the ecclesiastical structure of the pagan church, the title and vestments of the pontifex maximus, the worship of the Great Mother and a multitude of comforting divinities, the sense of supersensible presences everywhere, the joy or solemnity of old festivals, and the pageantry of immemorial ceremony, passed like maternal blood into the new religion, and captive Rome captured her conqueror. The reins and skill of government were handed down by a dying empire to a virile papacy; the lost power of the broken sword was rewon by the magic of the consoling word; the armies of the state were replaced by the missionaries of the Church moving in all directions along the Roman roads; and the revolted provinces, accepting Christianity, again acknowledged the sovereignty of Rome. Through the long struggles of the Age of Faith the authority of the ancient capital persisted and grew, until in the Renaissance the classic culture seemed to rise from the grave, and the immortal city became once more the center of summit of the world's life and wealth and art. When, in 1936, Rome celebrated the 2689th anniversary of her foundation, she could look back upon the most impressive continuity of government and civilization in the history of mankind. May she rise again.

Bye for now. Y. b. in C. Keith

 

The text of Constantine's Sunday Law of 321 A.D. is :

"One the venerable day of the Sun let the magistrates and people residing in cities rest, and let all workshops be closed. In the country however persons engaged in agriculture may freely and lawfully continue their pursuits because it often happens that another day is not suitable for gain-sowing or vine planting; lest by neglecting the proper moment for such operations the bounty of heaven should be lost. (Given the 7th day of March, Crispus and Constantine being consuls each of them the second time." Codex Justinianus, lib. 3, tit. 12, 3; translated in History of the Christian Church, Philip Schaff, D.D., (7-vol.ed.) Vol. III, p.380. New York, 1884

Dr. A.Chr. Bang says regarding this Law :
"This Sunday law constituted no real favoratism to Christianity..... It is evident from all his statuatory provisions that the Emperor during the time 313-323 with full consciousness has sought the realisation of his religeous aim: the amalgamation of heathenism and Christianity." Kirken og Romerstaten (The Church and the Roman State) p.256. Christiania, 1879

15. In A.D. 321, to please the bishops of the Catholic Church, he issued an edict commanding judges, townspeople, and mechanics to rest on Sunday. Yet in this also his paganism was still manifest, as the edict required rest on "the venerable day of the sun," and "enjoined the observance, or rather forbade the public desecration, of Sunday, not under the name of Sabbatum, or Dies Domini, but under its old astrological and heathen title, Dies Solis, familiar to all his subjects, so that the law was as applicable to the worshipers of Hercules, Apollo, and Mithras, as to the Christians." - Schaff. ( The Great Empires of Prophecy by Alonzo Jones page 391 )

The following is from the council of Laodicea ( about 364 AD )

CANON XXIX. CHRISTIANS must not judaize by resting on the Sabbath, but must work on that day, rather honouring the Lord's Day; and, if they can, resting then as Christians. But if any shall be found to be judaizers, let them be anathema from Christ.

It was during the riegn of Constantine that the adulterous form of Christianity that sought relations with, and the power of, the kings of the earth, attained their goal. The Roman Catholic church is rightly named, for she is that apostate Christain institution which first abandoned the power of the Holy Spirit, in favor of the power of the state. It was Constantine, the emperor of Rome, that the for-runners of the Catholic church gave their support to, with the intention of gaining the power of the state. Thus, the Catholic church, is the Church of Rome.

63. Then came Constantine, the best imperial representative of the new paganism, and the most devout worshiper of the sun as the supreme and universal deity, with the avowed purpose, as expressed in his own words, "First to bring the diverse judgments formed by all nations respecting the Deity to a condition, as it were, of settled uniformity." In Constantine the new paganism met its ideal, and the New Platonism - the apostate, paganized, sun-worshiping form of Christianity - met its long-wished-for instrument. In him the two streams met. In him the aspiration of Elagabalus, the hope of Ammonius Saccas and Clement, of Plotinus and Origen, and the ambition of the perverse-minded, self-exalted bishops, were all realized and accomplished - a new, imperial, and universal religion was created.
64. Therefore, "the reign of Constantine the Great forms one of the epochs in the history of the world. It is the era of the dissolution of the Roman Empire; the commencement, or rather consolidation, of a kind of Eastern despotism, with a new capital, a new patriciate, a new constitution, a new financial system, a new, though as yet imperfect, jurisprudence, and, finally, a new religion." - Milman.
F473
65. The epoch thus formed was the epoch of the papacy; and the new religion thus created was the PAPAL RELIGION. ( The Great Empires of Prophecy by Alonzo Jones page 361 )

By instituting the first Sunday laws, Constantine gave the Church of Rome the power of the state. For this law commanded all, those in, and out of the faith, to observe this apostate Christian institution. In this way, the one who would think to change times and laws, obtained the power to do so. Thus began the rule of the Papacy, an institution that would go on to trample upon the individuals conscience.

At present, the church of Rome does not exercise her authority over any but her own. Indeed, she even espouses religious liberty. However, at the same time, the present Pope is pursuing an almost identical course to that of Constantine's, which resulted in the establishment of the Church of Rome.

The Pope is calling for unity of all faiths, Christian, and non Christian alike. The Pope himself, would naturally be the visible leader of this union when it is accomplished. At the same time also, the Pope is calling for civil legislation supporting the Sunday Sabbath. The following quote is from the Popes APOSTOLIC LETTER DIES DOMINI.

Therefore, also in the particular circumstances of our own time, Christians will naturally strive to ensure that civil legislation respects their duty to keep Sunday holy. In any case, they are obliged in conscience to arrange their Sunday rest in a way which allows them to take part in the Eucharist, refraining from work and activities which are incompatible with the sanctification of the Lord's Day, with its characteristic joy and necessary rest for spirit and body. (112)

If all faiths unite, and Sunday observance is decreed by law, then another apostate form of religion will have the power of the state on a world wide level. This will undoubtedly lead to the persecution of those who do not go with the flow, just as it did when the Church of Rome was established. A world wide religio-political government, forcing all to worship a certain way. Sound familiar? It should. The establishment of the Church of Rome, was the establishment of the first beast of the thirteenth chap. of the book of Revelation. The establishment of this power we are now discussing, will be the establishment of the second beast of this same chapter. The second beast will make an image to the first beast, by establishing the same day of worship, by law, that the Church of Rome did. When this law is in place, then this new apostasy will have the power of a new world wide government. This is when persecution of true Christianity will really begin again in a big way.

Bye for now. Y. b. in C. Keith

 

Keith is an endless source of great historic quotes. A great opportunity to enrich the web files.

Keep them coming.

In Christ,

Bob

 

10. No sooner were the apostles removed from the stage of action, no sooner was their watchful attention gone and their apostolic authority removed, than this very thing appeared of which the apostle had spoken. Certain bishops, in order to make easier the conversion of the heathen, to multiply disciples, and by this increase their own influence and authority, began to adopt heathen customs and forms.
11. When the canon of Scripture was closed, and the last of the apostles was dead, the first century was gone; and within twenty years of that time the perversion of the truth of Christ had become wide-spread. In the history of this century and of this subject the record is, - “It is certain that to religious worship, both public and private, many rites were added, without necessity, and to the offense of sober and good men.” - Mosheim. “Ecclesiastical History,” Murdock’s translation, century 2, part 2, chap. iv, par. 1.
12. And the reason of this is stated to be that -
“The Christians were pronounced atheists, because they were destitute of temples, altars, victims, priests, and all that pomp in which the vulgar suppose the essence of religion to consist. For unenlightened persons are prone to estimate religion by what meets their eyes. To silence this accusation, the Christian doctors thought it necessary to introduce some external rites, which would strike the senses of the people, so that they could maintain themselves really to possess all those things of which Christians were charged with being destitute, though under different forms.” Mosheim. Id., par. 3.
13. This was at once to accommodate the Christian worship and its forms to that of the heathen, and was almost at one step to heathenize Christianity. No heathen element or form can be connected with Christianity or its worship, and Christianity remain pure.
14. Of all the ceremonies of the heathen, the mysteries were the most sacred and most universally practised. Some mysteries were in honor of Bacchus, some of Cybele, but the greatest of all, those considered the most sacred of all and the most widely practised, were the Eleusinian, so called because celebrated at Eleusis in Greece. But whatever was the mystery that was celebrated, there was always in it, as an essential part of it, the elements of abomination that characterized sun-worship everywhere, because the mysteries were simply forms of the wide-spread and multiform worship of the sun.
15. Among the first of the perversions of the Christian worship was to give to its forms the title and air of the mysteries. For says the record: - “Among the Greeks and the people of the East, nothing was held more sacred than what were called the mysteries. This circumstance led the Christians, in order to impart dignity to their religion, to say that they also had similar mysteries, or certain holy rites concealed from the vulgar; and they not only applied the terms used in the pagan mysteries to Christian institutions, particularly baptism and the Lord’s Supper, but they gradually introduced also the rites which were designated by these terms.” - Mosheim.
Id., par. 5.


22. It was to accommodate the Christian worship to the minds of a people who practised these things that the bishops gave to the Christian ordinances the name of mysteries. The Lord’s Supper was made the greater mystery, baptism the lesser and the initiatory rite to the celebration of the former. After the heathen manner also a white garment was used as the initiatory robe, and the candidate, having been baptized, and thus initiated into the lesser mysteries, was admitted into what was called in thechurch the order of catechumens, in which order they remained a certain length of time, as in the heathen celebration, before they were admitted to the celebration of the Lord’s Supper, the greater mystery.
23. “This practice originated in the Eastern provinces, and then after the time of Hadrian (who first introduced the pagan mysteries among the Latins) it spread among the Christians of the West.” The reign of Hadrian was from 117-138. Therefore, before the second century was half gone, before the last of the apostles had been dead forty years, this apostasy, this working of the mystery of iniquity, had so largely spread over both the East and the West, that it is literally true that “a large part, therefore, of the Christian observances and institutions, even in this century, had the aspect of the pagan mysteries.” - Mosheim. “Ecclesiastical History,” century 2, part 2, chap. 4, par. 5.

Bye for now. Y. b. in C. Keith

 

Keith quoted:

It seems to me this is more of the Chick and Hislop type historical information we are getting regurgitated from a book somewhere on history. Each paragraph which would take pages to properly back up either way.

I'll point out some small things that should demonstrate to those honest and curious among us, that to not check the sources or examine the motives of second and third hand authors, is pretty dissatisfying if your goal is scholarly honesty and integrity.

Nobody has time to go through all this 'cut and paste' half truth re-presentment of history. The problem is there is so much assumption and judement/error wrapped in with some true statements, that it weaves together in the mind ulimately creating a unique quilt, where it is impossible to distinquish the threads from each other.

Take a look at the first statement which seems so flipantly thrown out:

First of all, the canon was not closed at the death of the last Apostle. The very first sentence in misleading to those uneducated in history. The canon was still open. In functioning history, at that time, there was no canon. In hindsight, we can determine at that point, there would be no new books in the -yet to be determined- cannon. But in real life application, the authority to define that canon lay with the living growing Church on earth, not with the Apostles, who had recently died.

The authors implication here, is that we should only look at the Bible, and never trust any opinions of Christians after the last Apostles died, even if they learned from the Apostles. In other words, logically, he is attempting to negate any very early Christian historical evidence that would not agree with today's different understandings of the NT.

This is but one example of so many.

 

Excellente references Keith!

Here are some "others" in even more detail from RCC sources (of course) --

In Christ,

Bob

 

The Catholic historian Thomas Bokenkotter's best selling pro-Catholic work "a concise history of the Catholic church" makes it abundantly clear..

Pg 49 speaks of the change that occurred in the 4th century "the clergy at first were not sharply differentiated from the laity..the clergy married, raised families, and earned their livelihood at some trade or profession. But as the practice grew of paying them..they withdrew more and more from secular pursuits, until by the fourth century such withdrawal was deemed obligatory"

"at first the Christian presbyter or elder (as they were really known) avoided any resemblance to the pagan or Jewish priests and, in fact even deliberately refused to be called a priest. He (the real Christian leader) saw his primary function as the ministry of the word. ..but the image of the Christian presbyter gradually took on a sacral character."

"the more elaborate liturgy of the post-Constantinian era, with its features borrowed from paganism, enhanced the image of the minister as a sacred personage. The ministry of the word diminished in importance when infant baptism became the rule rather than the exception, for infants could not be preached to. "

"before Constantine the whole church was considered the realm of the sacred (priesthood of all) as opposed to the profane world. After Constantine and the breakdown of the separation between the church and the world, the polarity between the sacred and profane was transformed into one between the sacred clergy and the profane laity"

"legislation to this effect was first passed at the local synod of Elvira, Spain and taken up by the popes beginning with Siricius (d. 399), who enforced clerical celebacy (which was adopted mainly on the grounds that sex was incompatible with the sacred character of the clergy)"

So there we have it on two short pages (49-50) of that telling work done by a Catholic historian - revealing the ongoing evolutionary process in the church that brings us to where we are today.

Page 42 "the liturgy itself was considerably influenced by the Constantinian revolution. Millions of pagans suddenly entered the church
and some of their customs inevitably crept into the liturgy; the use of the kiss as a sign of reverence for holy objects, the practice of genuflection,
devotion to relics, use of candles, incense and other ceremonial features derived from the imperial court. Under this pagan influence Christians
began to face the east while praying which made it necessary for the priest to lead prayers while his back was toward the congregation."

pg 43 for a long time the celebrant was left considerable freedom to improvise in conducting the liturgy. Even wording of the canon was left to his
discretion.

Pg 39 "the alliance with the state profoundly influenced every aspect of the church's thought and life. It carried many advantages, but it also entailed some serious drawbacks; ... Mass conversions where social conformity was the chief motivating factor; the widening gap between clergy and laity thanks to the official status conferred on them; persecution of dissenters as a menace to the unity of the state. The church would never be the same again - for better and for worse - and so Constantine's conversion is certainly one of the greatest turning points in the history of the Catholic church and of the world."

In Christ,

Bob

 

From Keiths history:

This kind of history is strictly opinion. Let me say up front, the purpose of this statement, is to negate any very, very early Christian practices as 'sudden error'. And when he says widespread, it is to negate the continuity of doctrine and practice the early Christians had, which is in fact their great strength.

Everyone knows that change is always a fundamentally challenging and slow task. It takes a while to change peoples thoughts, and patterns of action. In the early church, are we intellectually expected to honestly believe, that in 20 years, with no quick or efficient communications infrastructures or travel infrastructures, that there was sudden and consistent errors adopted by all the churches in every place? In only 20 years?

Why do we have historical documentation on practice and doctrine from this period, but no reference to a great doctrinal fight for the truth, such as happened with all the other great heresies of the day? It is just not there.

How is it certain...by what evidence historically it this certain? These authors never tell how they have deduced this information with partistic texts referenced. We have read from other fanciful histories such as Hislop that these corruptions happened after Constantine, which would not have happened for another hundred years at this time.

Also, what 'sober and good men' were offended? This is historical information, therefore what documentation or known ancient work is this author referencing when he is deducing this supposed fact? We get nothing to go on here. Hard to go check this out isn't it? Thats the whole point.

 

Hello Charles33.

I think I have a few good sources that testify to the effect that shortly after, and even during the days of the apostles, error was creeping into the church. Of course, I don’t know if these sources will demand any regard from you. You might just consider them to be fanciful histories. In any case, here they are.

2 Tim 4:1-5 1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;
2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
5 But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry.


Acts 20:28-31 28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.
31 Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.


2 Pet 3:15-18 15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.
18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.


2 Cor 11:12-15 12 But what I do, that I will do, that I may cut off occasion from them which desire occasion; that wherein they glory, they may be found even as we.
13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.


2 Pet 2:1-3 1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
2 And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.
3 And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.


I Jn 4:1-3 1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

False teachings and doctrines, even the spirit of the anti-Christ itself, appeared in the church even before the apostles had left the scene. Well do you exaggerate the words of historians to prove your case, since in fact, you have no case. No one said all the churches had adopted error within 20 years of the apostles deaths. Nor was there any need for those who maintained the truth, to write their own defenses against these errors, they had the scriptures, and the writings of the apostles themselves to refute these errors. To the contrary, it is those of whom the apostle spoke about drawing away disciples unto themselves, ( Acts 20:30 ) that made sure their own teachings were written down in order to exalt themselves to the position of the apostles. Through many of these supposed church fathers, error crept into the churches.

Of course, the church of Rome holds many of these writers in high esteem, since they themselves are the product of these errors, and many more such that arose later in history. I submit the following as an example of how the church of Rome’s teachings fulfill the words of the apostle John concerning the spirit of the anti-Christ.

Immaculate Conception
THE DOCTRINE
In the Constitution Ineffabilis Deus of 8 December, 1854, Pius IX pronounced and defined that the Blessed Virgin Mary "in the first instance of her conception, by a singular privilege and grace granted by God, in view of the merits of Jesus Christ, the Saviour of the human race, was preserved exempt from all stain of original sin."
"The Blessed Virgin Mary . . ." The subject of this immunity from original sin is the person of Mary at the moment of the creation of her soul and its infusion into her body.
". . .in the first instance of her conception . . ." The term conception does not mean the active or generative conception by her parents. Her body was formed in the womb of the mother, and the father had the usual share in its formation. The question does not concern the immaculateness of the generative activity of her parents. Neither does it concern the passive conception absolutely and simply (conceptio seminis carnis, inchoata), which, according to the order of nature, precedes the infusion of the rational soul. The person is truly conceived when the soul is created and infused into the body. Mary was preserved exempt from all stain of original sin at the first moment of her animation, and sanctifying grace was given to her before sin could have taken effect in her soul.
". . .was preserved exempt from all stain of original sin. . ." The formal active essence of original sin was not removed from her soul, as it is removed from others by baptism; it was excluded, it never was simultaneously with the exclusion of sin. The state of original sanctity, innocence, and justice, as opposed to original sin, was conferred upon her, by which gift every stain and fault, all depraved emotions, passions, and debilities, essentially pertaining in her soul to original sin, were excluded. But she was not made exempt from the temporal penalties of Adam -- from sorrow, bodily infirmities, and death.
". . .by a singular privilege and grace granted by God, in view of the merits of Jesus Christ, the Saviour of the human race." The immunity from original sin was given to Mary by a singular exemption from a universal law through the same merits of Christ, by which other men are cleansed from sin by baptism. Mary needed the redeeming Saviour to obtain this exemption, and to be delivered from the universal necessity and debt (debitum) of being subject to original sin. The person of Mary, in consequence of her origin from Adam, should have been subject to sin, but, being the new Eve who was to be the mother of the new Adam, she was, by the eternal counsel of God and by the merits of Christ, withdrawn from the general law of original sin. Her redemption was the very masterpiece of Christ's redeeming wisdom. He is a greater redeemer who pays the debt that it may not be incurred than he who pays after it has fallen on the debtor.
Such is the meaning of the term "Immaculate Conception."
The Catholic Encyclopedia, Volume VII Copyright © 1910

According to the church of Rome, in the above explanation of the Immaculate Conception, Mary was separated from the rest of humanity by God. She did not inherit that which all the rest of humanity inherited through Adam and Eve, when they fell in the garden. That is to say, she did not have a fallen, sinful nature. This doctrine is wholly extra biblical. It has no foundation in the scriptures at all, and for this reason, we will not even address the issue of wether it is biblical or not. We will examine however, it's effects upon the heart of the gospel message to this fallen world.

Luke 1:28-35 28 And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.
29 And when she saw him, she was troubled at his saying, and cast in her mind what manner of salutation this should be.
30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.
31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.
32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.
34 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?
35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

As is apparent from the scriptures above, the conception of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ was unlike that of any other of the human race. God himself was Jesus' Father. This is the foundation of the mystery of Godliness. This truth is the salvation of humanity. However, it is not this truth alone that is our salvation, but also the truth that Christ's mother, was one of us. God became a man. Divinity and humanity were united in Christ, bridging the gap created between God and humanity through the disobedience of our first parents.

Gen 22:17-18 17 That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies;
18 And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.

Gen 26:4-6 4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.
6 And Isaac dwelt in Gerar:

Acts 3:25-26 25 Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.
26 Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.

Rom 1:1-4 1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,
2 (Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,)
3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;
4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:

2 Tim 2:7-8 7 Consider what I say; and the Lord give thee understanding in all things.
8 Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel:

Heb 2:14-16 14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.
16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

Christ took upon himself the seed of Abraham, and the seed of David, according to the flesh. These men did not have immaculate conceptions. They were sinners, just as you and I are. Yes, Just as Mary was also. If in fact, Mary was not one of us, then Christ did not unite himself to the entirety of the humane race, that was, is, and always will be, this side of heaven, in desperate need of salvation. The false doctrine of the immaculate conception is yet another doctrine of the church of Rome which separates humanity from their Savior. This doctrine completely undermines the entire gospel message.

Jesus Christ became one of us, in order to save us from the sinful flesh that we inherited from our first parents. This He did, by crucifying the deeds of the flesh, and allowing the deeds of his Father to be fulfilled within him. This is what makes it possible for us to pick up the cross and follow him. However, if Christ did not even have our flesh, how could he possibly have conquered the sins of the flesh that we struggle with, and ask us to follow him? He could not, and he would not. To the contrary, it was for this very purpose that he took upon himself our very own flesh, and nature, yet without sin. This is our salvation.

Heb 2:16-18 16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren,that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.

Heb 4:14-16 14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.
15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

As the book of Hebrews points out, it is the very fact that Jesus Christ became completely one of us, that qualifies him to be our high priest in the heavenly sanctuary. Because he knows and completely understands us, he ever liveth to make intercession for us. (Heb. 7: 25-27) Christ took upon himself our fallen natures, that he might redeem us from this very nature, or flesh if you will. He fought and won this battle with the flesh on our behalf, seeing that we could never have accomplished this victory. Although he took upon himself our fallen nature, Christ never sinned, and this is our salvation.

Rom 8:2-4 3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Our Lord and Savior condemned sin in the flesh, by living in our very flesh, but never fulfilling the desires of the flesh. By depending completely on his heavenly Father, and the power of His Holy Spirit, Christ continually crucified the desires of the flesh, thereby fulfilling the will of his Father. This he did until it lead him to the cross, where he was literally crucified for the sins of the world. Christ did not walk after the flesh, but after the Spirit. Now those who wish to do so, may lay down their lives at the foot of the cross with their Lord and Savior, and pick up the cross and follow Jesus. Christ condemned sin in the flesh, that the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in those who choose to follow him, and walk in the Spirit, instead of the flesh.

John 5:19 19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

John 5:30 30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

John 8:28 28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.

The Lord Jesus Christ did nothing of himself. For he was God, and man. If he lived by the strength of his own divinity, then he would not be our salvation, for we have no divinity from within ourselves to live with. If he lived, or walked by the flesh, then he could not be our salvation, for he would have lived, or walked in sin. But no, Christ lived, and walked by the Spirit, fulfilling the will of the Father. This is our salvation. Now we can do the same in Christ.

John 14:10-11 10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.

John 15:4-5 4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

If we abide in Christ, first and foremost being crucified with him, then he may abide in us through the power of the Holy Spirit of God. Just as he abode in his Father as one of us, so may we abide in him unto salvation.

Phil 2:5-11 5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Jesus crucified the deeds of the flesh all his life long, until it led him to the literal cross. The true Christians life, must begin, where Christ's ended, at the cross. When we die in Christ on the cross, we are justified. The law demands the death of the one who breaks it. Therefore Christ has made it possible for us to enter into his death, that the just demands of the law may be fulfilled. When we die with him, we are justified. When he lives in us, we are sanctified. The is the spiritual service of the Christian, to give their bodies as a living sacrifice unto the Lord, that he might dwell within them unto salvation.(Rom. 12:1&2)

Gal 5:17-25 17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

The true Christian seeks to always walk in the Spirit, and not in the flesh. Of course, it is not possible to walk in the Spirit, unless you have first crucified the flesh. The Christian is only able to crucify the flesh in and through the Lord Jesus Christ. He is the one who took our sinful flesh, and crucified it's desires all his life long, resulting in his literal crucifixion. His flesh, was our flesh. If you take this truth away, you destroy the entire gospel message. What good would it do any of us, if Christ crucified some kind of flesh that we have no part of?

II Jn 1:7 7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

The Lord Jesus Christ came in the flesh, our flesh. The doctrine of the Immaculate Conception undermines this foundational truth of the gospel message. By teaching this false doctrine, the church of Rome manifest's the spirit of antichrist. This is only right of course, since her doctrines serve the purpose of separating humanity from God, while Christ came to do just the opposite. The scriptures no where indicate that the flesh Christ took upon himself was different from the flesh of the rest of humanity. The scriptures do point out that Christ was of the seed of Abraham, and of David according to the flesh, not of the seed of some human that had no original sin. we will close this chapter with the following verses.

John 1:1-14 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Bye for now. Y. b. in C. Keith

 

Komoro said:

These are New Testament Scriptures you quoted. I am talking about the history AFTER this was written. The object of these Scriptures are of a subjective nature. Error has always been part of the Christian experience and history.

You can pretend to label anything afterwards as fulfilment of this prophecy(the verses you provided), but I would include documented heresies, such as Irenaus documented in his great work in the second century, 'Against Heresies', that clearly documented all the heresies of that time period. Praise God that the Church was able to document and refute those heresies just as was predicted in the verses you provided promised. As actually documented in over 300 pages, heresies were indeed a part of the early Church.

No, I think those verses of NT Scripture are fantastic and give credibility to the works of the Fathers that came immediately afterwards.

Oh, not so. The Church did in fact defend the deposit that had been 'once for all delivered to the saints' as Scripture to tells us we are to do. How can you say that we are to let error exist without a defence?!!! Irenaus did in fact provide this defense against heresies, pardon the pun. This is documented history.

Your logic surprises me by your very presence in this thread as you say..."Nor was there any need for those who maintained the truth, to write their own defenses against these errors".

Why then if you believe these words you have written to me, have you tried to point out error to me, and to others on this thread with a defense of the truth? You have as you say, "the words of the Aposltes to defend you." Why are you even writing?

 

Posted by Kamoroso:

So......are you saying that Christ had ORIGINAL SIN????????? Are you saying that Christ was born into sin just as you and I have been?

 

A broken clock is right twice a day. There is no question but that the RCC did oppose various errors over the centuries as well as incorporating those errors listed above in the RC historian Thomas Bokenkotter's brief history of the Catholic church.

Your argument is of the form "IF the Catholic church refuted ANY errors at all - then it must have refuted ALL errors". That is not a defensible position as even RC historians admit to changes brought in by paganism.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Kormoso said:

A beautiful description of the sacraments of Baptism and Communion. Nice words. A very real and experiential fulfilment of the Scriptures. All I can say is, AMEN.

 

Bob, all changes in Christian tradition and worship are not errors. Do you claim the 'altar call' to be an error, given that it is more than adequately known by all that this practice or tradition has been added since even the Reformation???

Your position is one of, "If 'anything' changed at all, then all is in error". That is not a defensible position.

What about the Catholic historians verion are you saying is such a grevious error? You are making some point (obvious by your double posting). Get specific. Are you saying Constantine created the modern teaching of the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist? Priests changed the way they dressed? That Baptist ministers dress different than the earliest Christians? What is it that you are really driving at specifically?