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I have a Catholic question...

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by Spirit Seeker, Apr 9, 2003.

  1. Hi Spirit Seeker,

    Thanks for the kind words, I am assuming they were directed at me haha!!.

    As I mentioned before, I am in sort of the situation your mother is in, in that my sister left the Catholic Faith. This hurt my father deeply because he felt he did not give her the proper catechesis to defend ones faith.

    I think many cases are like my sisters, the typical Catholic upbringing without much understanding of what our beliefs are, then when some protestant starts asking questions and pointing out where we are wrong, many Catholics doubt their faith and convert.

    I don't want to sound elitest or better than any of the Protestant brothers, but as a Catholic I hold the position your mother did, we do feel we have the fullness of truth. This is not to say that the Catholic church is perfect. I will tell you straight out that when it comes to fellowship and preaching from the pulpit we Catholics can take a lesson from or fellow Protestants.

    But when it comes to the fullness of faith we feel we have the complete truth, and many of us want to share this with out separated brothers. This is not saying there is anything wrong with protestant worship.

    So many protestant converts to the Catholic church often say that they wanted more than what they had, they wanted a deeper relationship with God (something that is sometimes lacking with Catholics). One thing that draws them to the Catholic church is the Mass and the Holy Eucharist which we believe is the real physical presence of Jesus. We are invited to partake of him, physically touch God.

    I understand that many protestants do not believe in the real presence and I respect this viewpoint.

    I think its important to understand each other, I feel that the Catholic faith has been missrepresented by those who do not know the faith, just as I do not know many of the protestant beliefs. If you have any other questions regarding a Catholic postion or doctrine, please feel free to contact me.

    God Bless You All

    Yours in Christ
    Daniel
     
  2. Hi Grant,

    I agree that its more a custom to call a priest Father. This is done because he is like our spiritual father on earth, to help guide us along the right path, just as our birth father guides us in the same way.

    The title of father is not demanded or necessary, its just a courtesy given.

    God Bless You

    Yours in Christ
    Daniel
     
  3. Spirit Seeker

    Spirit Seeker New Member

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    Hiya Daniel...yes, that was directed at you. I do have some other issues that you may be able to shed light on for me...(you asked for it!).

    My husband (not a catholic) was not allowed to take communion at our wedding, which was a mass.

    Mother refuses to take communion anywhere else. She came to an Emmaus event at which we were singing, and she just sat there during communion. I felt embarassed for her..it's like she thought no other communion but in a catholic church was good enough for her. That's just appearances, though. Of course, she said she would not attend an Emmaus weekend because of the communion issue (however she finally decided to go to Cursillos).

    My mother thinks that since my third child was not baptized in the catholic church that he will not go to heaven. All we need to do is accept Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior and live for Him. My son has done that, was baptized, and is probably the most spiritual child I've ever seen (when he says grace our food gets cold!). Believer's baptism vs. infant.

    If we confess our sins to the Lord, why is a priest necessary? He, IMO, has no power in that regard. Only our Heavenly Father does.

    How do you feel about the possibility of Mary being deemed 'co-redemptor,' meaning that we should pray to her for salvation?

    If we are to pray to our Holy Father and have no other gods before him, why does the rosary contain ten Hail Marys for every one Lord's Prayer?

    Just the first few that pop to mind... :D :D
     
  4. Chemnitz

    Chemnitz New Member

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    I would be sitting right next to her then, because I too would refuse to take part in a communion at a church that denies the Real Presence. To do otherwise, would require a compromise in beliefs because to take part in communion with a church means that I am also publicly confessing agreement with that church's teachings. And since I believe in the Real Presence, I could not communion with a church that teaches otherwise.
     
  5. Spirit Seeker

    Spirit Seeker New Member

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    Oh, puuuuleeeeeeze! Get a grip on reality! I'm sorry, but please explain to me why you think that bread and wine are turned into the physical body and blood of Christ? " Represents my body... represents my blood... do this in memory of me ."
     
  6. GraceSaves

    GraceSaves New Member

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    Good man. We are not to eat and drink the body and blood of the Lord unworthily. To do so is to drink judgement upon ourselves. If he partook without believing, this would be happening.

    She has convictions. I do not see why you frown upon this. Do you want to take communion with Catholics, who believe that the actual body and blood of Christ is present, physically? If you do not believe as we do, I'm not sure why you would want to commune with us. Reverse it, apply it to your mother's situation, and you should understand.

    Any Trinitarian baptism is valid. You can assure your mother of that.

    The priest doesn't forgive the sins; he pronounces God's forgiveness to us. Rephrase the question with that in mind, and we'll discuss it.

    Never even heard this one before.

    The Hail Mary's are used as a meditative, counting device as we meditate upon the mysteries of the life of Jesus in His life, death, and resurrection. It is not because we somehow love Mary more than our One God. To apply that to it is to ignore Catholic teaching and put your own negative spin on an otherwise positive action.

    God bless you,

    Grant
     
  7. Spirit Seeker

    Spirit Seeker New Member

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    OK, I haven't figured out the quote thing yet, so bear with me as I do it my way...

    quote:
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Originally posted by Spirit Seeker:
    My husband (not a catholic) was not allowed to take communion at our wedding, which was a mass.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Good man. We are not to eat and drink the body and blood of the Lord unworthily. To do so is to drink judgement upon ourselves. If he partook without believing, this would be happening.

    It wasn't by choice...he was NOT ALLOWED. He was not told that it wasn't because he did not 'believe' (assuming meaning physical body and blood of Christ?), but that it was because he was not catholic. Period.

    quote:
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Originally posted by Spirit Seeker:
    Mother refuses to take communion anywhere else. ...it's like she thought no other communion but in a catholic church was good enough for her.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    She has convictions. I do not see why you frown upon this. Do you want to take communion with Catholics, who believe that the actual body and blood of Christ is present, physically? If you do not believe as we do, I'm not sure why you would want to commune with us. Reverse it, apply it to your mother's situation, and you should understand.

    I know she has convictions, as we all do...I guess I was just wrong in thinking that ALL Christians may at any time worship and take communion TOGETHER as part of that worship. I've taken communion plenty of times in the catholic church since I became a baptist, with the mindset that we are all Christians sharing in the wonderful tradition of communion together. I was NEVER told that it was the actual body and blood of Christ, not even when in training for my first communion; and if I had been, well, you know how kids are. I was on the team for an Emmaus walk recently, which was held at a Methodist church, and we had several denominations there, including catholics. They took communion with us every day with no problem.


    quote:
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Originally posted by Spirit Seeker:
    My mother thinks that since my third child was not baptized in the catholic church that he will not go to heaven.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Any Trinitarian baptism is valid. You can assure your mother of that.


    quote:
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Originally posted by Spirit Seeker:
    If we confess our sins to the Lord, why is a priest necessary? He, IMO, has no power in that regard. Only our Heavenly Father does.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    The priest doesn't forgive the sins; he pronounces God's forgiveness to us. Rephrase the question with that in mind, and we'll discuss it.

    I know the priest doesn't forgive our sins; why do we need a priest to pronounce our forgiveness? Is there scripture to support that, or is it just another tradition?

    quote:
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Originally posted by Spirit Seeker:
    How do you feel about the possibility of Mary being deemed 'co-redemptor,' meaning that we should pray to her for salvation?
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Never even heard this one before.

    I don't remember where I read it, but if I find it I'll let you know.


    quote:
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Originally posted by Spirit Seeker:
    If we are to pray to our Holy Father and have no other gods before him, why does the rosary contain ten Hail Marys for every one Lord's Prayer?
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    The Hail Mary's are used as a meditative, counting device as we meditate upon the mysteries of the life of Jesus in His life, death, and resurrection. It is not because we somehow love Mary more than our One God. To apply that to it is to ignore Catholic teaching and put your own negative spin on an otherwise positive action.


    God bless you,

    Grant
     
  8. Hi Spirit Seeker

    I will see if I can help here. Also please forgive my spelling as I am short on time at the moment.

    With communion we as Catholics believe that Jesus is truly present in the Eucharist (bread and wine). Not only present but totally changed, it is no longer bread and wine but the body and blood of Jesus. The Catholic church feels that all who receive communion must believe what we Catholics feel it truly is. It would not be right for someone to receive the actual body and blood of Jesus and believe that it is only symbolic.

    For the same reason your Husband could not receive communion, your mother also can not receieve it some place other than a Catholic church. Again its because of the belief. Catholics are also not allowed to attend non-catholic worship services either. It all has to do with the idea that if one worships the same as someone else they are affirming the same beliefs. This is not to say protestants are wrong and catholics are right, just that we are different.

    The Catholic position is that baptism in Protestant churches are valid. What is needed is that the child be either immersed in water, or poured or sprinkled with water as the words "I Baptize you in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit" being spoken.

    I know confession to a Priest is a big sticking point with many Protestants. My understanding is that first of all, by confession directly to Jesus your sins are forgiven. However Catholics believe that at the time of the great commission, Jesus commanded his apostles to forgive sins and gave them the authority to forgive and also to bind sins. This authority was only given to the apostles and not all those around at that time so this authority has been passed on to priests and bishops over time by the laying on of hands. We also do not view this as asking the Priest for forgiveness but it is Jesus working through the Priest that forgiveness is given. The nice thing about confession is that mentally it makes one feel so good and clean. Hearing the words "I absolve you of your sins" reinforces the fact that your sins are forgiven. I used to hate confession as a kid and now I rejoice in it. We also believe that we are given a special grace at the time of confession to help us to resist temptation in the future.

    Ah the issues regarding Mary. First when we pray to Mary we are not worshiping her. If a Catholic does this, then it is wrong. By praying we are asking her to pray for us. Just as you would ask a friend to pray for you or for your intention. If you look in the book of Job, God tells several people to have Job pray for them since Job's prayers are more pleasing to God. The same is true of Mary, she is in Heaven and is perfect in Gods eyes so her prayers for our sake hold more weight than our own so to speak.

    Basically the Catholic church looks to Mary to lead us to her son, Jesus Christ. I must pass on the co-redemtrix issus as I am not well versed on that one yet.

    Another interesting thing about Mary, when Elizabeth said she was blessed among women, the greek translation of this means that of all the women every alive, she is the most blessed. Taking this into account she was more blessed than Eve who like Adam was without original sin, so this is part of why Catholics believe Mary was conceived without original sin, and since she was more Blessed than Eve, she did not fall to the temptation of sin either during her life.

    I think I explained the Hail Mary above, if you look at the words, we are acknowledging what scripture has said about Mary and also asking her to pray for us.

    The rosary was given to us by our Holy Mother through the private revelation at Fatima I believe. Praying the rosary, when one is saying the Hail Mary's they are meditating one of now 20 mysteries in the life of Jesus. This brings us closer to Jesus and understanding what he did for us. There are now 4 sets of mysteries, Joyous, Luminous, Sorrowful and Glorious.

    I appoligise for not giving any scripture references for some of my explanations, I was a little rushed. But please feel free to call on me. It gives me great joy to share my beliefs with others, even if we don't see totally eye to eye.

    I will share with you a statement made by a Protestant minister when told that Jesus was really present in the Holy Eucharist. He said that if he could believe that he would kneel right in front of that church and never get up.

    One thing I have found is the deep love so many Protestants have for our Lord, so much so that I many times feel a twinge of jealousy as I travel down my road of faith. What ever I say on this board I pray that I never give the impression that I think less of my Protestant brothers. We have a common goal which is glorious and besides why fight amoung ourselves, we need to stay strong because there is so much evil in the world, we must help each other in true Christian charity.

    God Bless You

    Yours in Christ
    Daniel
     
  9. GraceSaves

    GraceSaves New Member

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    He could have asked. It doesn't take much effort to ask, "Why can't I receive just because I'm not Catholic?" It would have been explained. Further, what communion "IS" is made explitly clear in the prayers preceeding it. If you go to Mass and don't know what Catholics believe regarding the Eucharist, at least in a basic sense, then you aren't listening. No offense, but the prayers are quite explicit about this.

    Is this a Biblical notion? Of course, if it was/is Biblical, there were not thousands of splintered Christian groups at that time. And anyone that did not believe the one true faith would have been excluded from communion. Read up on ancient communion practices - you will see it was a VERY big deal to be admitted to the Lord's table.

    Please do not make excuses or blame others for your lack of knowledge. Take iniative. Now you know; let's work from this point on.

    They shouldn't have.

    John 20:19-23

    God bless you,

    Grant
     
  10. Spirit Seeker

    Spirit Seeker New Member

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    My final thoughts on these topics, then I'm outta here...y'all are starting to sound like my mother...trying to change my mind rather than educate me (although I do appreciate your attempts at education). You've expressed your opinions and I've expressed mine.

    It seems rather judgmental to turn someone away from communion...a believer (in JC as our personal Lord and Savior) should never be denied communion no matter where you are. We are all brothers and sister in Christ. Period. And by the way, we both asked and were simply told because he is not catholic. Period. No explanation and we DID ask. Wedding was a mass to please my mother...mistake. No offense to you, but it wasn't right for me.

    "Please do not make excuses or blame others for your lack of knowledge." I was not making excuses or blaming anyone for anything...just stating a fact. Don't put words in my mouth.

    We don't need intercession...why should we? She was a wonderful woman, perfect, sinless, no doubt. All we need to do is accept the gifts of grace and eternal life that He is waiting to give us and spend the rest of our lives enjoying our personal relationship with Jesus Christ instead of waiting for Mary to lead us to Him. You either want it or you don't...you either accept it or you don't. HE stands at the door and knocks...she doesn't.

    See ya around, & God Bless...
     
  11. jasonW*

    jasonW* New Member

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    Please do not make excuses or blame others for your lack of knowledge. Take iniative. Now you know; let's work from this point on.
    </font>[/QUOTE]Grant -

    That was a rather unrespectful and unenlightened response. How is one to know to SEEK the answer if one does not know the question? Point being, it is possible to need to be told something in order to know to delve further into it.

    For clarification: If I am a catholic going for my communion and I am not told about the concept of 'real presence', who is responsible for my lack of knowledge? Is it me, the church classes, my parents or some combination?

    Other than that, aren't you supposed to be out of here for lent? Or were you away for some other reason?

    Until next time,
    jason
     
  12. GraceSaves

    GraceSaves New Member

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    I don't see anywhere in my posts where I did more than answer your direct questions or comments, but if I offended you somehow, I apologize.

    Would you baptise someone who just walked up and said, "Baptise me?" Or would you say, "No, you are not a believer yet." I am betting you would do the latter, considering your belief that baptism follows conversion. In the Catholic faith, the Eucharist is a sign of unity among Catholics, those that share the common faith. And because we believe that we receive the Lord PHYSICALLY, it would be improper of us to uncaringly give this to those who do not believe or even might wish to abuse it (not the case in your situation, but in others).

    You asked, you say. What answer did you get? I'm interested.

    I apologize.

    Paul asked for intercession from the people he pastored. Was he wrong? If not, then its not a matter of intercession that you disagree with, its to whom we are allowed to ask for intercession.

    You believe that Mary was sinless?

    I don't "wait" for Mary to lead me to Jesus. I never have stated anything of the sort. Mary, by her bringing God the Son into the world, by definition, points me to Christ.

    God bless you as well!

    Grant
     
  13. GraceSaves

    GraceSaves New Member

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    I did not mean to be unrespectful, so I apologize if my language was coarse.

    My concern is that I hear a lot of people saying they left the Church or whatnot because they "didn't know." If you don't know, you can't just wait for the answer to come to you. You should seek it out for yourself; that's part of faith, is always letting it grow by praying and asking questions.

    That's why I also said that I want to work from this point on, now that he DOES know what the Church teaches on the matter.

    Again, listen to the prayers in Mass. If I did not believe in the real presense previously, and listened to those prayers, I would be pretty shocked, because they explicitly state what we believe is happening. I'm saying that, yes, it is the person's repsonsiblity to have an active, participating faith (once they are of age to do so).

    Heh, that sounded very unwelcoming. ;) I didn't take off for Lent in the sense that the others did. I did use it as a break to listen and not talk; I've been using this season to focus on other areas of my life.

    God bless,

    Grant
     
  14. jasonW*

    jasonW* New Member

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    I understand what you are trying to say, but I think it is not that simple. For instance; you and I had a go around a while back about the meaning of the world 'know' as it relates to 'knowing' that the CC is 'the' church. You could very well say the passage in the catechism is quite clear, but you are presupossing your understanding of the passage and others into your reading.

    So, someone is listening to the mass and hears the exact same thing as you, they may not get the same message as they are coming from a different background. To you, the real presence means just that. To another, it could very well take on a symbolic meaning....even though you feel the language is explicit and clear, that may not be the case for someone else. Thus is the problem when discussing these things.

    I meant nothing by it [​IMG]

    I have taken quite a bit of time off and just started to post again. I hope that this goround finds more people willing to discuss matters logicall rather than emotionally.

    God bless,
    jason
     
  15. mozier

    mozier New Member

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    Do yourself a big favor here.

    Do NOT get involved in such arguments as to whether call a priest "Father," or not.

    Rather, focus on real issues, like why you have found Christ and why you think The Roman Catholic Institution is not what it claims to be.

    This is what I do, and it keeps things in perspective. Remember, The Roman Catholic Institution has a persuasive argument for everything. But just remember what you are dealing with (Rev. 17), and you will keep steady.

    mozier
     
  16. Spirit Seeker

    Spirit Seeker New Member

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    GraceSaves:
    1. I did not feel offended, just pressured to believe what you believe. However, as I think back, one reason I feel that way is probably because growing up I was told what to do, what to say, and don’t speak until spoken to. Even to this day, if I start a conversation with my mother and the topic does not interest her (no matter what it is, not specifically religion) she will just blow me off and change the subject. I think since I was young I have always felt that I was never right about anything and that my opinion didn’t matter, and so I get defensive about too many things. I do respect how you feel about this and what you believe, just as I’m sure (hope) you do for and everyone else. I think I was getting too defensive and I need to get out of my mommy complex before I discuss anything this deep. I do apologize if I came across that way.
    2. Actually, what I meant to say about Mary was that she was born without ‘original’ sin. I really don’t remember much else from catechism except being told to memorize, recite, sit, stand, kneel.
    3. I’ve already answered this question once (“You asked, you say. What answer did you get? I'm interested.”)…
    Originally posted by Spirit Seeker:
    We are all brothers and sister in Christ. Period. And by the way, we both asked and were simply told because he is not catholic . Period.

    …and Mozier…oh, I wish I would have thought of that before I asked that first question. I guarantee that won’t happen again. The Lord has done wonderful, AWESOME things in my life, which I look forward to sharing with friends I make on this board, and life is too short to worry about the small stuff.

    God Bless You All…
    ~T
     
  17. Chemnitz

    Chemnitz New Member

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    I just checked ten different translations plus the Greek. Not once did I see the word represents anywhere. And as the greek is in the indicative not the subjunctive, I will have to believe that Christ himself meant that His body and blood are truly present. That aside, I do not believe as the RCC does, I believe that the Body and Blood are truly present, I do not believe the bread and wine are turned into His Body and Blood.
     
  18. GraceSaves

    GraceSaves New Member

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    I'm with Chemnitz. You insert the word "represents" and use quotations as if that is actually the Scripture.

    No offense, but please do not question Catholic beliefs if you are going to misquote Scripture, willfully, to disprove us.

    God bless,

    Grant
     
  19. Headcoveredlady

    Headcoveredlady New Member

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    So, in other words you are saying, that I should have asked around to see if I could be taught that I was a sinner bound for hell and I needed to be saved? How would I know that if no one in the Roman Catholic religion told me?

    In fact someone in my family did get saved, (staunch Catholics,) and when she tried to tell us we needed to be saved, she was mocked and called crazy by her Roman Catholic family members. She told me I needed Jesus to wash away my sins and that I must be born again. They all told me she was crazy for telling us this. I believed them for a while.

    Sorry, the Roman Catholic religios services I attended never taught me I needed to be saved. Maybe your does, but I am sure most do not teach this.
     
  20. SolaScriptura in 2003

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    Spirit Seeker,

    There is an interesting note on Matthew 23:8 found in the Catholic New American Bible on the American bishops' website. Here is what it says:

    Matthew 23:8-9 in Catholic NAB:

    8 As for you, do not be called 'Rabbi.' You have but one teacher, and you are all brothers.
    9 Call no one on earth your father; you have but one Father in heaven.

    Footnote on verses 8-12:

    6 [8-12] These verses, warning against the use of various titles, are addressed to the disciples alone. While only the title "Rabbi' has been said to be used in addressing the scribes and Pharisees (Matthew 23:7), the implication is that Father and "Master' also were. The prohibition of these titles to the disciples suggests that their use was present in Matthew's church. The Matthean Jesus forbids not only the titles but the spirit of superiority and pride that is shown by their acceptance. Whoever exalts . . . will be exalted: cf Luke 14:11.
    http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/matthew/matthew23.htm

    Strange how they violate their own footnote with their practice, isn't it? May I suggest that since the Catholic bishops say in their footnote that the "warning against the use of various titles, are addressed to the disciples alone" (and it is obvious that the bishops themselves use and require the use of such titles) that they do not see themselves as disciples? The bishops, after all, refer to "the prohibition of these titles to the disciples," and yet would be quick to correct you for not calling them by one of these titles! They, then, must not view themselves nor their fellow Catholics as disciples! EITHER that, or they don't view "The Matthean Jesus" (as they call him) as Lord of their life! Another example of their contempt for "The Matthean Jesus" would be the RCC's refusal to allow divorce in that one case that He allows. (Mat 19:9)

    [ April 11, 2003, 03:10 AM: Message edited by: SolaScriptura in 2003 ]
     
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