That Which Is Perfect

Why should the Bishop of Rome have the authority and final say to abolish "the necessary distinction which the primitive and early Church made between the canonical books and the apocryphal, or ecclesiastical, books"?

 

Jerome did not have the authority given by Jesus Christ. The Pope did. "Whatsoever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven", authority. Jerome's opinion was his opinion. Jerome even recognized this authority.

What authority do Protestants have to determine canon? Who has this authority. Martin Luther? A panel of Lutherans, a panel of Baptists? And on what is this authority based?

God Bless

[ July 26, 2003, 10:36 AM: Message edited by: Kathryn ]

 

Originally posted by Kathryn:
Jerome did not have the authority given by Jesus Christ. The Pope did. "Whatsoever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven", authority. Jerome's opinion was his opinion. Jerome even recognized this authority.


Christ gives the power to bind and to loose to all the bishops and to all the pastors of all the cities equally. As Jerome says,

What authority do Protestants have to determine canon? Who has this authority. Martin Luther? A panel of Lutherans, a panel of Baptists? And on what is this authority based?

You are correct! They have no authority to change canon. And neither does the Pope. Lutherans continue to use the apocryphal books in their churches. But these books can not be used to establish church doctrine.

 

I have been looking for an answer to a question from another thread, It may be pertinent here so I'll open it up for anyone to answer.

Here 'tis:

The original KJV bible published in 1611 included what Catholics refer to as the deuterocanonical books (namely: Tobit, Judith, Wisdom, Sirach (Ecclesiasticus), Baruch, and 1 and 2 Maccabees, as well as longer versions of Daniel and Esther). These books were subsequently ommitted after 1648.
My questions then are: Which committee that made the decisions to include or exclude issued their bible in error? And on what authority could they base this on?

If we go further one could ask: Did the Holy Spirit lead one committee, and not the other?

And how is it (since it seems that we are somewhat susceptible to mis-interpreting the Holy Spirit in regard to what the canon should consist of)that we know the canon is complete now!? Afterall the people who read the first KJV probably thought it was complete, only to find out otherwise.
Please try to avoid circular reasoning in your answers. i.e. "The Bible tell us so, thats how we know", for if that is the case then ANY book could make the same claim as to authority and it becomes strictly a relative acceptance. Mormons, JW's, Muslims etc. could make the same contention ..

 

Hi John,

You wrote, "Why should the Bishop of Rome have the authority and final say to abolish "the necessary distinction which the primitive and early Church made between the canonical books and the apocryphal, or ecclesiastical, books"?"

There are two separate matters, which your question addresses. The first is why does the successor of St. Peter have the authority to make a canonical decision, and the second is whether this distinction is really necessary. If you take, for instance, the decree made at Hippo in 393, you will be hard pressed to discover any "necessary distinction" between the Deuterocanonicals and the Protocanonicals. They are interspersed amongst one another. This realizable distinction found among various Fathers is an influence gained from their dialogue with the Semitic world, and the ultimate decision as to the nature of the books is the property of the same Magisterium which made the initial decision as to the Protocanon to begin with: the bishops united with the successor of St. Peter.

As for the opinions of St. Jerome, I would suggest incorporating the following passage into your analysis of his views:

"Since the East, shattered as it is by the long-standing feuds, subsisting between its peoples, is bit by bit tearing into shreds the seamless vest of the Lord, woven from the top throughout,' since the foxes are destroying the vineyard of Christ, and since among the broken cisterns that hold no water it is hard to discover the sealed fountain' and the garden inclosed,' I think it my duty to consult the chair of Peter, and to turn to a church whose faith has been praised by Paul. I appeal for spiritual food to the church whence I have received the garb of Christ. The wide space of sea and land that lies between us cannot deter me from searching for the pearl of great price.' Wheresoever the body is, there will the eagles be gathered together.' Evil children have squandered their patrimony; you alone keep your heritage intact. The fruitful soil of Rome, when it receives the pure seed of the Lord, bears fruit an hundredfold; but here the seed corn is choked in the furrows and nothing grows but darnel or oats. In the West the Sun of righteousness is even now rising; in the East, Lucifer, who fell from heaven, has once more set his throne above the stars. Ye are the light of the world,' ye are the salt of the earth,' ye are "vessels of gold and of silver." Here are vessels of wood or of earth, which wait for the rod of iron,and eternal fire. Yet, though your greatness terrifies me, your kindness attracts me. From the priest I demand the safe-keeping of the victim, from the shepherd the protection due to the sheep. Away with all that is overweening; let the state of Roman majesty withdraw. My words are spoken to the successor of the fisherman, to the disciple of the cross. As I follow no leader save Christ, so I communicate with none but your blessedness, that is with the chair of Peter. For this, I know, is the rock on which the church is built! This is the house where alone the paschal lamb can be rightly eaten. This is the ark of Noah, and he who is not found in it shall perish when the flood prevails. But since by reason of my sins I have betaken myself to this desert which lies between Syria and the uncivilized waste, I cannot, owing to the great distance between us, always ask of your sanctity the holy thing of the Lord. Consequently I here follow the Egyptian confessors who share your faith, and anchor my frail craft under the shadow of their great argosies. I know nothing of Vitalis; I reject Meletius; I have nothing to do with Paulinus. He that gathers not with you scatters; he that is not of Christ is of Antichrist." (Jerome, To Pope Damasus - Epistle 15:1-2 [A.D. 375])

 

Hi, John:

He specifically gave them to Peter as the head of the Apostles:

"I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it. "I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven." Matthew 16:18-19

He also one again singles Peter out as the head of His Church:

So when they had dined, Jesus saith to Simon Peter, Simon, [son] of Jonas, lovest thou me more than these? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my lambs.

He saith to him again the second time, Simon, [son] of Jonas, lovest thou me? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my sheep.

He saith unto him the third time, Simon, [son] of Jonas, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved because he said unto him the third time, Lovest thou me? And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee. Jesus saith unto him, Feed my sheep. John 21:15-17

I would like to read your quote in context. Do you know from where the quote was taken, so I can read the context.


"I follow no leader but Christ and join in communion with none but your blessedness [Pope Damasus I], that is, with the chair of Peter. I know that this is the rock on which the Church has been built. Whoever eats the Lamb outside this house is profane. Anyone who is not in the ark of Noah will perish when the flood prevails" (Letters 15:2 [A.D. 396]).

"The church here is split into three parts, each eager to seize me for its own. . . . Meanwhile I keep crying, ‘He that is joined to the chair of Peter is accepted by me!’ . . . Therefore, I implore your blessedness [Pope Damasus I] . . . tell me by letter with whom it is that I should communicate in Syria" (ibid., 16:2).


Letter of Jerome to Pope Damasus
BEGINNING OF THE PREFACE FOR THE GOSPELS OF SAINT JEROME THE PRESBYTER


To the blessed Pope Damasus, from Jerome,
You urge me to make a new work from the old, and that I might sit as a kind of judge over the versions
of Scripture dispersed throughout the whole world, and that I might resolve which among such vary, and
which of these they may be which truly agree with the Greek. Pious work, yet perilous presumption, to
change the old and aging language of the world , to carry it back to infancy, for to judge others is to invite
judging by all of them. Is there indeed any learned or unlearned man, who when he picks up the volume
in his hand, and takes a single taste of it, and sees what he will have read to differ, might not instantly
raise his voice, calling me a forger, proclaiming me now to be a sacrilegious man, that I might dare to add,
to change, or to correct anything in the old books? Against such infamy I am consoled by two causes: that
it is you, who are the highest priest, who so orders, and truth is not to be what might vary, as even now I
am vindicated by the witness of slanderers.

I am glad you retain these books, but who had the authority to decide which books were the inspired word of God and which were not?

God Bless

 

Kathryn,

Yes, and in John 20:23, Christ says to a group of the disciples virtually the same thing, "Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained." So, clearly Christ gave the power of the keys to the church and not just to one man.

I'll give you the link ( Of the Power and Primacy of the Pope ) paragraph 18. There are other places in the document where Jerome appears to debunk apostolic succession. But, apparently, Jerome changed his opinion on a number of subjects.

Lutherans have no desire to reopen the canon. We simply use the original canon before changes were made by Popes and councils.

 

But how do you know this? Was it by human reasoning, efforts or emotion? Or was it by divine revelation? If it was divine revelation, what form did the revelation take?

 

John:
There is no indication where this quote is from or what context it was in. St. Jerome's writings don't indicate this belief. It seems to be from Protestant document with no citation of where it was from or in what context it was said or written.

St. Peter was singled out as specifically by Jesus Christ to get the keys and be the chief shepherd. The other bishops also have authority, but St. Peter himself as per Jesus Himself has not only the authority to forgive sins, but the authority that whatsoever he binds on earth shall be bound in heaven.


"I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it. "I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven." Matthew 16:18-19
Peter was also told by Jesus that he was to be "Feed my sheep" "Feed my lambs", "Feed my sheep" making him the head shepherd of Jesus' Church.

The Catholic Church uses the same canon as determined in 397 Council when the canon was closed. This same canon has been reaffirmed at many councils over the years.

Lutherans at the time of the Reformation seem to be saying that 7 books of this canon are not inspired by God as Sacred Scripture. I don't understand how they have any authority to decide something like this. Jerome said, in the letter to the Pope at the time, he would not attempt any kind of work on the Bible except that he was authorized by the Pope himself.

God Bless

 

Still waiting for Protestant respones from anyone concerning the original KJV and the commitees that were used to translate, and decide on the books to include in the 1611 original version.

here are the questions again:

 

Numbers 12:6-8. God has clearly stated how he communicates with prophets.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Of the Power and Primacy of the Pope is not Protestant. It was written by Martin Luther, an excommunicated Roman Catholic. He rejects papal supremacy based on scripture, the rulings of councils, and the testimony of the fathers. Rome has had 466 years to refute his evidence.

Are you saying only the Pope has the authority to retain sins? Must all excommunications go through Rome?

Are you saying that parish priests do not have the authority to forgive sins? Do they need the approval of their bishops?

 

I was mistaken regarding the authorship of Of the Power and Primacy of the Pope. It was actually written by Luther associate Philip Melanchthon.

 

This seems to be a Protestant document out of the Reformation. There is no indication in what context St. Jerome gave that thought. Any credible source would say where the quote from St. Jerome was from.

How can someone, or why should something be refuted that can’t even be substantiated that it was ever said, and in what context. If this was even a high school level term paper, it would be rejected for not citing its sources. If you want to find the source of it, then I will look at it in context.

No, I never said anything about sins or excommunications. I said Jesus gave Peter the authority that whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. There was no mention of sin in this context.

Matthew 16:18
"I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it.

Matthew 16:19
"I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven."

I never brought up forgiving sins, but they are given authority by the Bishop at ordination to hear confession when the Bishop lays hands on them.

God Bless

 

I doubt that any 16th century document had the level of scholarship of your high school term paper standard.

Sorry. The Lutheran understanding of binding and loosing is that of retaining and forgiving sins. I was projecting that understanding to Roman Catholics. Do you see "binding and loosing" as referring to the doctrine of the church?

 

Kathryn,

The entire epistle is at ( Jerome: Epistle No. 146: About Deacons )

 

John:
Thank you for the link in context.

As Carson pointed out:
As for the opinions of St. Jerome, I would suggest incorporating the following passage into your analysis of his views:

"Since the East, shattered as it is by the long-standing feuds, subsisting between its peoples, is bit by bit tearing into shreds the seamless vest of the Lord, woven from the top throughout,' since the foxes are destroying the vineyard of Christ, and since among the broken cisterns that hold no water it is hard to discover the sealed fountain' and the garden inclosed,' I think it my duty to consult the chair of Peter, and to turn to a church whose faith has been praised by Paul. I appeal for spiritual food to the church whence I have received the garb of Christ. The wide space of sea and land that lies between us cannot deter me from searching for the pearl of great price.' Wheresoever the body is, there will the eagles be gathered together.' Evil children have squandered their patrimony; you alone keep your heritage intact. The fruitful soil of Rome, when it receives the pure seed of the Lord, bears fruit an hundredfold; but here the seed corn is choked in the furrows and nothing grows but darnel or oats. In the West the Sun of righteousness is even now rising; in the East, Lucifer, who fell from heaven, has once more set his throne above the stars. Ye are the light of the world,' ye are the salt of the earth,' ye are "vessels of gold and of silver." Here are vessels of wood or of earth, which wait for the rod of iron,and eternal fire. Yet, though your greatness terrifies me, your kindness attracts me. From the priest I demand the safe-keeping of the victim, from the shepherd the protection due to the sheep. Away with all that is overweening; let the state of Roman majesty withdraw. My words are spoken to the successor of the fisherman, to the disciple of the cross. As I follow no leader save Christ, so I communicate with none but your blessedness, that is with the chair of Peter. For this, I know, is the rock on which the church is built! This is the house where alone the paschal lamb can be rightly eaten. This is the ark of Noah, and he who is not found in it shall perish when the flood prevails. But since by reason of my sins I have betaken myself to this desert which lies between Syria and the uncivilized waste, I cannot, owing to the great distance between us, always ask of your sanctity the holy thing of the Lord. Consequently I here follow the Egyptian confessors who share your faith, and anchor my frail craft under the shadow of their great argosies. I know nothing of Vitalis; I reject Meletius; I have nothing to do with Paulinus. He that gathers not with you scatters; he that is not of Christ is of Antichrist." (Jerome, To Pope Damasus - Epistle 15:1-2 [A.D. 375])


"The church here is split into three parts, each eager to seize me for its own. . . . Meanwhile I keep crying, ‘He that is joined to the chair of Peter is accepted by me!’ . . . Therefore, I implore your blessedness [Pope Damasus I] . . . tell me by letter with whom it is that I should communicate in Syria" (ibid., 16:2).


http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/3001016.htm

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/3001015.htm

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/3001146.htm

If you read these three letters, in context, it shows that St. Jerome believes in the authority of the Pope, and the “chair of Peter”. The last letter which you cite is about refuting “that someone has been mad enough to put deacons before presbyters, that is Bishops.” For the presbyters and the Bishops have one and the same dignity and priesthoods. Yet it is only the Bishops that can ordain. For unity and to prevent schism a church has one Bishop in charge. All the Bishops have the same dignity and priesthood. The context shows that he is not talking about the Chair of Peter, but the office of Bishop. Please read his other letters where he says he would not even think to alter any word of Holy Scripture without the authority of the Pope himself which I provided earlier. Context is everything.


God Bless

 

I believe that what this refers to is the Bible.

Because the surrounding context supports that the reason tongues existed was to communicate the gospel to people in their own language and when the Bible was completed this form of communication would no longer be necessary.

 

Wisdom Seeker

1 Corinthians 13:8
Love never fails; but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away.

1 Corinthians 13:9
For we know in part and we prophesy in part;

1 Corinthians 13:10
but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away.

1 Corinthians 13:11
When I was a child, I used to speak like a child, think like a child, reason like a child; when I became a man, I did away with childish things.

1 Corinthians 13:12
For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known.

So, if "when that which is perfect comes" is the Bible, do you then see clearly now, face to face? Do you know fully, just as you also have been fully known, because that which is perfect came with the Bible? Doesn't fit too well.

God Bless

[ July 28, 2003, 08:34 PM: Message edited by: Kathryn ]