1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

The horrible ecummenicism of Mother Theresa

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by CatholicConvert, Oct 30, 2003.

  1. Johnv

    Johnv New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2001
    Messages:
    21,321
    Likes Received:
    0
    Pople John Paul II has never spoken ex cathedra, and none of his statements have been infallible. The fact that you imply such shows you clear lack of knowlege of the RCC. Additionally, since this has been pointed out to you several times, and you fail to acknowlege your error, you're flat out engaging in spreading lies, which lakes you a liar.
     
  2. Bro. Curtis

    Bro. Curtis <img src =/curtis.gif>
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2001
    Messages:
    22,016
    Likes Received:
    487
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Yeah, John...whatever. :rolleyes: I know you can't stand to see your old church exposed.

    Grant said..."The canon of saints is just a list of known saints. If the Church declares Mother Teresa a saint, then we know that she is; however, there are countless saints in heaven that the Church has not recognized simply because no one makes a case for them."

    So, how long will it be before the RCC is offering prayers to her, as other saints, after her becoming cannonized ? Will it be immediate, will somebody be commissioned to write a prayer to her, and will she have a specific title, like the patron saint of a certain cause ?

    Also, I would really like an answer to my question about absolving Theresa from the sin Brother Ed wrote about. Will it be looked over, or are there pennance ? (I know the pope won't consult you personally, I'm asking for opinion.)
     
  3. GraceSaves

    GraceSaves New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2002
    Messages:
    2,631
    Likes Received:
    0
    This response of yours to John did not even address a single thing he wrote on (all though he was technically incorrect, since the canonization of saints is an infallible decree). All you did was attack him personally. Shame shame.

    When she is canonized as a saint, we can know for sure that she is in Heaven (a truth derived from the guidance of the Holy Spirit) and we can join our prayers with hers. As for titles/written prayers, I don't really see the point. Maybe, maybe not; that area has no bearing on the topic.

    I don't think you know what you're talking about ( no offense), because the "are there pennance" statement doesn't make an ounce of sense. Perhaps you should rephrase that.

    Firstly, Blessed Teresa went to weekly confession, and she was very aware that she was a sinner in need of a savior. She was not the least bit prideful, and constantly opened herself to God's forgiveness. Saints are not non-sinners; they are people that loved the Lord so much that their lives were utterly devoted to them; it doesn't mean they didn't have shortcomings; they're human just like you and I. If Blessed Teresa becomes a canonized saint, we can know with certainty that any and all mortal sins were forgiven during her earthly life.
     
  4. Bro. Curtis

    Bro. Curtis <img src =/curtis.gif>
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2001
    Messages:
    22,016
    Likes Received:
    487
    Faith:
    Baptist
     
  5. trying2understand

    trying2understand New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2001
    Messages:
    3,316
    Likes Received:
    0
    So confessing your sins is merely ritual?

    I thought that was one of the necessary steps to getting saved.

    If you didn't recognize that you are a sinner and confess your sins, you aren't saved, Curtis.

    Or do you believe that getting yourself saved means that sin no longer matters and you can continue to sin with impunity?
     
  6. Bro. Curtis

    Bro. Curtis <img src =/curtis.gif>
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2001
    Messages:
    22,016
    Likes Received:
    487
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Nice try. Did you see the "ritual" thingy in my statement ?

    Pretty weak.

    Now why don't you answer some of the real questions here ?
     
  7. trying2understand

    trying2understand New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2001
    Messages:
    3,316
    Likes Received:
    0
    Uhh... yes, I did see the word ritual in your statement.

    That is why I asked if confessing your sins is merely ritual.

    So is it?
     
  8. GraceSaves

    GraceSaves New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2002
    Messages:
    2,631
    Likes Received:
    0
    Curtis,

    I'm not going to respond to you if you are going to take my words and reword them to mean something I didn't say.
     
  9. Bro. Curtis

    Bro. Curtis <img src =/curtis.gif>
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2001
    Messages:
    22,016
    Likes Received:
    487
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Grant, what words, exactly did I twist ?

    Is it just a cheap way out of addressing my questions ? Or did you think my message for Ron was for you ?
     
  10. GraceSaves

    GraceSaves New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2002
    Messages:
    2,631
    Likes Received:
    0
    Curtis,

    This statement by you: "Saints are believers, Grant. That's what they are called in scripture, and I again use the example of the Church at Corinth, being in a sorry state, but still addressed as saints. God makes people saints." shows me that you did not read my posts very carefully, because I have already made it clear that God makes saints, not the Pope or the Church, but the Church CANONIZES them, ie, adds them to an official lists of people that we KNOW are saints. That, AND the Church believes fully that there are saints on earth, but not on earth exclusively, and those saints in heaven are in a much fuller (actually, fullest) communion with God than any of us on earth.

    You sidestepped my response and pretended like I didn't know what I was talking about.
     
  11. Ray Berrian

    Ray Berrian New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2002
    Messages:
    5,178
    Likes Received:
    0
    If Jesus creates saints at the moment of our faith trust in Him, it is superfluous for a human agent or system to second guess Him. After all, it is His Kingdom and He owns us by regeneration. Do human systems know the hearts of men and women better than the Triune God?
     
  12. dianetavegia

    dianetavegia Guest

    Well spoken, Bro. Ray!

    Diane Tavegia
     
  13. GraceSaves

    GraceSaves New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2002
    Messages:
    2,631
    Likes Received:
    0
    Humans do not. God does. God shares this knowledge with His church in order to provide role models of the faith to strengthen the faithful.

    Amen.
     
  14. Ray Berrian

    Ray Berrian New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2002
    Messages:
    5,178
    Likes Received:
    0
    God shares this knowledge with His church in order to provide role models of the faith to strengthen the faithful.

    Ray is saying, 'Your theory is faulty because God desires that we all are an example to each other in the church. There are no favored sons or daughters in His Kingdom. Romans 8:29 all Christians are to be 'conformed to His Image and likeness.' Also, all who He forknows, He calls, then justifies them, and finally glorifies them.' [Romans 8:29-30 & Hebrews 2:9-10 a,b,c,d] This is Almighty God's way in bringing His people to the beatific vision. Canonization is the humanistic, organizational procedure of the Roman system of religion which elevates the 1% and belittles the rest of God's people.
     
  15. GraceSaves

    GraceSaves New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2002
    Messages:
    2,631
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ray,

    Your reply in no way, especially not with Scriptural support, did not demonstrate how no one is to be held as an example. Yes, we are all called to be conformed to the image of Christ, but the fact is that some, by the grace of God, have been VERY CONFORMED TO HIS IMAGE, and this is something WE TOO should strive for. You used Scripture to state the obvious, but none of it supported your conclusion.
     
  16. Johnv

    Johnv New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2001
    Messages:
    21,321
    Likes Received:
    0
    I caught you in a lie, and I'm wrong? You're still a blatant liar, though. You're "whatever" response doesn't absolve you of your lies, which you don't even acknowlege. Proof positive that you have no problem being a fraud. As long as it does damage to a religion you don't like, then it must be biblically okay.
     
  17. Ray Berrian

    Ray Berrian New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2002
    Messages:
    5,178
    Likes Received:
    0
    Grace Saves,

    Maybe you will be more inclined to accept these verses as a burden of proof that we are all to be examples in the faith of Jesus. Try: II Thessalonians 3:7 & 9.

    'For yourselves know how ye ought to follow us; for we behaved not ourselves disorderly among you.'

    'Not because we have not power, but to make ourselves an ensample unto you to follow us.'

    The point was that Christ lifts all Christians up as being saints. He has no partiality toward some perceived people as being saintly. I Corinthians 1:2 in the Greek says, 'Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, CALLED SAINTS, with all who in every place call on the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both their and ours.'

    The alleged saint, under view, may have been Godly but her orthodoxy is suspect. And that is why it is better for the Lord to judge who is a saint rather than a fallible human being or religious institution. I am sure you should agree with me and if not, why not?
     
  18. GraceSaves

    GraceSaves New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2002
    Messages:
    2,631
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ray,

    I have already made this case. All you are doing is re-asking the same question. Read my posts again, please.
     
  19. Ray Berrian

    Ray Berrian New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2002
    Messages:
    5,178
    Likes Received:
    0
    Grace Saves,

    New information means the case is open. You have not responded to my statements in my post which clearly indicates that you have 'cut and run.' You cannot, scholastically speaking, just state your own case and ignore your antagonist's remarks and remain credible.
     
  20. GraceSaves

    GraceSaves New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2002
    Messages:
    2,631
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ray,

    You wrote:

    "If Jesus creates saints at the moment of our faith trust in Him, it is superfluous for a human agent or system to second guess Him. After all, it is His Kingdom and He owns us by regeneration. Do human systems know the hearts of men and women better than the Triune God?"

    I responded:

    "Humans do not. God does. God shares this knowledge with His church in order to provide role models of the faith to strengthen the faithful."

    You responded:

    "Your theory is faulty because God desires that we all are an example to each other in the church. There are no favored sons or daughters in His Kingdom. Romans 8:29 all Christians are to be 'conformed to His Image and likeness.' Also, all who He forknows, He calls, then justifies them, and finally glorifies them.' [Romans 8:29-30 & Hebrews 2:9-10 a,b,c,d] This is Almighty God's way in bringing His people to the beatific vision. Canonization is the humanistic, organizational procedure of the Roman system of religion which elevates the 1% and belittles the rest of God's people."

    I responded:

    "Yes, we are all called to be conformed to the image of Christ, but the fact is that some, by the grace of God, have been VERY CONFORMED TO HIS IMAGE, and this is something WE TOO should strive for."

    You see, you state that we are all called to be saints, and you reaffirm that you when you say this:

    "Maybe you will be more inclined to accept these verses as a burden of proof that we are all to be examples in the faith of Jesus. Try: II Thessalonians 3:7 & 9.

    'For yourselves know how ye ought to follow us; for we behaved not ourselves disorderly among you.'

    'Not because we have not power, but to make ourselves an ensample unto you to follow us.'

    The point was that Christ lifts all Christians up as being saints."


    You move from being called to be saints, which is all that your scriptural support offers, to stating that we are "all lifted up as being saints." That is not what the Scripture says. Further, I AGREED WITH YOU that Christians on earth can be saints, and that Christians on earth can be examples. However, I stated that saints in Heaven have finished their earthly lives, and we know that they persevered until the end, and that is, also, a GREAT ROLE MODEL, because we know that their faith brought them to our own ultimate goal, Heaven.

    Your argument is not an argument at all, unless you wish to say that we should not look to those faithful Christians who have died as proper role models, but only those who are still alive.

    You then go on to say:

    "The alleged saint, under view, may have been Godly but her orthodoxy is suspect. And that is why it is better for the Lord to judge who is a saint rather than a fallible human being or religious institution. I am sure you should agree with me and if not, why not?"

    The bolded portion testifies that YOU DID NOT READ MY RESPONSE. This is not "new information" - it's the same quesiton you asked originally (see the top of this post). I answered it already. You asked it again, pretending like I cannot or have not answered your question.

    If you cannot see this or will not see this, I can't really do much more to appease you.
     
Loading...