Saved?

The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with the work of Satan displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders, and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

It also says that God sends a powerful delusion. is that delusion that will be revealed. I would also like to point out that on this board right now are at least 2, if not more, threads saying that Catholics believe in miracles and that in order to become a saint you need to experience at least 4 miracles etc..."The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with the work of Satan displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders, and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing."

No pauline, I do not worship the same god as the Muslims. I worship the Holy Trinity. Whoever wishes to be saved must, above all else, hold to the true Christian faith.
Whoever does not keep this faith pure in all points will certainly perish forever.

Now this is the true Christian faith:
We worship one God in three persons and three persons in one God,
without mixing the persons or dividing the divine being.
For each person -- the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit -- is distinct,
but the deity of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is one,
equal in glory and coeternal in majesty.
What the Father is, so is the Son, and so is the Holy Spirit.
The Father is uncreated, the Son uncreated, the Holy Spirit uncreated;
the Father is infinite, the Son infinite, the Holy Spirit infinite;
the Father is eternal, the Son eternal, the Holy Spirit eternal;
yet they are not three who are eternal, but there is one who is eternal,
just as they are not three who are uncreated, nor three who are infinite,
but there is one who is uncreated and one who is infinite.
In the same way the Father is almighty, the Son is almighty, and the Holy Spirit is almighty;
yet they are not three who are almighty, but there is one who is almighty.
So the Father is God, the Son is God, the Holy Spirit is God;
yet they are not three Gods, but one God.
So the Father is Lord, the Son is Lord, the Holy Spirit is Lord;
yet they are not three Lords, but one Lord.
For just as Christian truth compels us to confess each person individually to be God and Lord,
so the true Christian faith forbids us to speak of three Gods or three Lords.
The Father is neither made nor created nor begotten of anyone.
The Son is neither made nor created, but is begotten of the Father alone.
The Holy Spirit is neither made nor created nor begotten,
but proceeds from the Father and the Son.
So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons; one Holy Spirit, not three Holy Spirits.
And within this Trinity none comes before or after; none is greater or inferior,
but all three persons are coequal and coeternal,
so that in every way, as stated before, all three persons are to be worshiped as one God
and one God worshiped as three persons.
Whoever wishes to be saved must have this conviction of the Trinity.

~So what happens when you remove the Father fron the Trinity? You are denying the Son and the Spirit. The cannot mix the persons or divide the divine being. They are three, but one. All three worshiped as ONE God. Muslims worship a different god..... unless of course you are denying the validity and the confession of the Anthanasian Creed.

 

"So, the way we 'prioritize and THINK about the different aspects of salvation' are what DETERMINES a Christian from an only-thought-he-or-she-was-a-Christian? Sadly, you have reduced Christ's redemptive act on the Holy Cross, to an intellectual concept, that only those who think about it and prioritize it a certain way, can validate the ACTUAL ACT AND GRACE confered by the act of Christ. Poor mentally challenged people, who have Down's Syndrome. I'll bet they cannot concieve of your mental gymnastics. Are they too, doomed?, because they do not understand theology in terms that are pleasing to you???"

Salvation is a gift from God through grace. Through grace we recieve saving faith. The means of grace are the word and the sacrements(there are only two sacraments, Holy Baptism and Holy Communion) which are the word combined with earthly substance. In Holy Baptism, God's word is combined with water and in Holy communion God's word comes to us through the bread and the wine as we use the words of institution. None of us are capable of coming to the Lord on our own. Mentally retarted people and babies who are not mentally capable of of hearing or reading the Gospel, if they are Baptized, they have saving faith. Holy Communion is only for those who can recognize the true presence in the bread and the wine and who are repentant.

[ March 03, 2002, 03:26 PM: Message edited by: tulpje ]

 

Again, I don't know why my thread concerning the Pope as the antichrist was purged, but I would like to submit this as yet further evidence from http://www.wels.net/sab/frm-qa.html:

Q:I am a Catholic, and was impressed with your web site which I just viewed for the first time. I read with great interest the entire section entitled "This We Believe". I was, however, shocked and saddened to read no. 6 under section IX entitled Jesus' Return and the Judgment. I do not begin to understand how you can translate the scripture reference in 2 Thessalonians to mean what you claim. Are you saying, then, that the papacy, started by Peter, has always contained the characteristics of the Antichrist? I look forward to your reply.

A:There are essentially two reasons we recognize the pope as the Anti-Christ. He takes authority to make binding laws to himself and he curses the doctrine of justification by grace alone by faith, alone which is the most important teaching of the Bible. The recognition that the pope is the Anti-christ is not unique to the Lutheran church. It was recognized by many medieval Catholics, Such as the poet Dante, and by all churches of the Reformation. There is no biblical evidence that Peter was the first pope or even the first bishop of Rome. The Scripture basis for this is summarized in the following answer which was previously published on our web site.

A biblical understanding of the doctrine of the Antichrist is especially important at a time when Lutherans around the world have signed agreements on justification with Rome which really are no agreements. The pope has recently affirmed that Lutheran churches which have not preserved apostolic succession cannot even be called churches. All other churches can be considered saving churches only to the degree that their members are in imperfect communion with the bishop of Rome. In the recent jubilee year, the pope reaffirmed the practice of issuing indulgences. In spite of all this, Lutherans are negotiating the terms under which they can submit themselves to the papacy. Yet if we study Scripture and history, we see that nothing has changed since Luther made the clear declaration that the pope is the very Anti-Christ. If anything, the Roman Catholic Church has changed for the worse, since today it not only holds the same false doctrines that were proclaimed by the Council of Trent in the 16th century, but now it also has added the immaculate conception and assumption of Mary, papal infallibility, the possibility of salvation for the heathen, and the higher-critical approach to Scripture to the list of its unscriptural teachings.

There are two points which by themselves are enough to make the pope an antichrist. First, he puts himself in God's place when he takes to himself the right to make divine laws binding on the church. It is a sin to eat meat on Friday. Then it isn't. Priests are denied marriage, a gift of God. The list goes on and on. By making such laws the pope denies the authority of God the Father. Second, he curses anyone who believe the most important teaching of the Bible, forgiveness of sins by grace alone by faith alone. He denies the essence of the work of Christ, God the Son. These two teachings make the pope an antichrist. The fact that he fits all the other characteristics of the false teacher who would come from Rome make him not just an antichrist, but the Antichrist.

Although all the apostles taught the same doctrine, they did not always use the same terminology. The one whom John called "Antichrist" was called "the Man of Sin" or "the Man of Lawlessness" by Paul. For unknown reasons, it was John's term "Antichrist" which became the standard term of the church, even though it was Paul who had given a more thorough description of this person in 2 Thessalonians 2:3-12.

3) Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. 4) He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshipped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God. 5) Don't you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things? 6) And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time. 7) For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way. 8) And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming. 9) The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with the work of Satan displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders, 10) and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11) For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12) and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

In spite of the importance of this passage, we must pass it by with only a brief summary of its description of Antichrist. The power and spirit of Antichrist were already secretly at work in Paul's day, but the great Antichrist could not come out into the open and develop fully until the person and thing which were restraining him (probably the Roman emperor and empire) were removed from the scene. Although Antichrist is called a man, his power is at work from Paul's time until the end of the world, so he is a succession of persons, a dynasty, not an individual. He is above all a religious deceiver who seats himself in God's Temple, the church. He usurps divine authority to himself, promotes the lie which opposes the gospel, and supports his delusions with counterfeit miracles. The essence of his work is that he leads souls to destruction. This description alone is enough to justify the conclusion that the Pope of Rome is the Great Antichrist, since he alone fits all the marks in the highest degree.

Scripture, however, gives further evidence, which should be more than enough to convict the Pope in the minds of the uncertain. Although John does not use the term "Antichrist" in Revelation, he there gives a more thorough treatment of this topic, which he touched on only indirectly in his letters. (Revelation 17:1-18)

1)One of the seven angels who had the seven bowls came and said to me, "Come, I will show you the punishment of the great prostitute, who sits on many waters. 2) With her the kings of the earth committed adultery and the inhabitants of the earth were intoxicated with the wine of her adulteries.. 3) Then the angel carried me away in the Spirit into a desert. There I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast that was covered with blasphemous names and had seven heads and ten horns. 4) The woman was dressed in purple and scarlet, and was glittering with gold, precious stones and pearls. She held a golden cup in her hand, filled with abominable things and the filth of her adulteries. 5) This title was written on her forehead: MYSTERY BABYLON THE GREAT THE MOTHER OF PROSTITUTES AND OF THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH. 6) I saw that the woman was drunk with the blood of the saints, the blood of those who bore testimony to Jesus. When I saw her, I was greatly astonished. 7) Then the angel said to me: Why are you astonished? I will explain to you the mystery of the woman and of the beast she rides, which has the seven heads and ten horns. 8) The beast, which you saw, once was, now is not, and will come up out of the Abyss and go to his destruction. The inhabitants of the earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the creation of the world will be astonished when they see the beast, because he once was, now is not, and yet will come. 9) "This calls for a mind with wisdom. The seven heads are seven hills on which the woman sits. 10) They are also seven kings. Five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet cone; but when he does come, he must remain for a little while. 11) The beast who once was, and now is not, is an eighth king. He belongs to the seven and is going to his destruction. 12) "The ten horns you saw are ten kings who have not yet received a kingdom, but who for one hour will receive authority as kings along with the beast. 13) They have one purpose and will give their power and authority to the beast. 14) They will make war against the Lamb, but the Lamb will overcome them because he is Lord of lords and King of kings--and with him will be his called, chosen and faithful followers. 15) Then the angel said to me, "The waters you saw, where the prostitute sits, are peoples, multitudes, nations and languages. 16) The beast and the ten horns you saw will hate the prostitute. They will bring her to ruin and leave her naked; they will eat her flesh and burn her with fire. 17) For God has put it into their hearts to accomplish his purpose by agreeing to give the beast their power to rule, until God's words are fulfilled. 18) The woman you saw is the great city that rules over the kings of the earth.

The match-ups of this chapter with the history of the papacy are so frequent and so specific that it is very difficult to avoid the connection. Even a number of Roman Catholic commentators acknowledge that the Babylon of Revelation 17 must be Rome, but they try to deflect its condemnations to a revived pagan Roman Empire. The correspondences with papal history are so many that it is difficult to mention them all in a paper of this scope.

The prostitute, who represents the apostate church as she often does in Scripture (Ezekiel 16, 23, Hosea), forms a sad contrast with the faithful woman of Revelation 12. She rides on a beast which apparently is the same beast of government which appeared in Revelation 13. The church now dominates the state and makes the state serve its purposes. At first glance John's readers, who were being persecuted by the government, must have thought that such a passing of power to the church would be a wonderful day. Who of them would have guessed how disastrous it would be when the church dominated a diminished Roman Empire? A church which is catholic--that is which rules over all peoples and nations, a church rich with gems, precious metals, and rich garments, a church which has more annual revenue than all the kings of Europe--wouldn't such a church be a great blessing to the world? But what do we see in the vision? We see a church which is in adulterous alliance with kings and yet tries to lord it over them. (The German emperor who had to stand in the snow at Canosa to seek the Pope's forgiveness and the Pope's Interdict on England are but two examples in a long, sad train of such events.) We see a church lavishing its wealth on castles and great works of art and luxurious living. (One would think that her princes would at least blush when they parade in scarlet and purple.) Most incredible of all we see a church drunk with the blood of the saints, the blood of Waldensians and Albigensians, of Savanarola and Huss, of victims of the Inquisition, of Netherlanders and Germans. We see a church hated even by her allies, the kings of the earth, who turn against her and devour her. (Recall the captivity of the papacy in Avignon by the French kings, the actions of Henry VIII to seize church property in England, and anticlericalism and state-church conflicts over property through the centuries right down to our own time.) The kings of the earth live in a love-hate relationship with the prostitute church, fascinated by her pomp and glory, but angered by her power and pretensions. (Papal visits of recent years still demonstrate these conflicting passions.)

In Revelation 18, even her enemies mourn the apostate church's fall because she embodies everything that is magnificent in human achievement, the greatest art, architecture and music, the greatest scholarship and humanistic endeavors. Yet all her pomp has been achieved at the cost of sacrificing her loyalty to God, so that his people are warned: Come out of her, my people, so that you will not share in her sins, so that you will not receive any of her plagues.

To avoid her we must identify her. To make her identity more certain her connection with Rome is made clear. Who of John's readers could fail to catch the significance of the seven hills of the city? Furthermore, she is identified with the culmination of seven kings or kingdoms. The "king who is" must be the pagan Rome of John's day. The five who have fallen are apparently Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Persia, and Greece, the past kingdoms that oppressed God's people. The seventh and eighth kingdoms, which belong together, are the unholy allies, the Papacy and the Holy Roman Empire and other kingdoms allied with the papacy.

This identification of the Antichrist with Rome is confirmed by the prophecies of Daniel (Daniel 7:2-8 , 11-12, 17, 19-27) 2) Daniel said: "In my vision at night I looked, and there before me were the four winds of heaven churning up the great sea. 3) Four great beasts, each different from the others, came up out of the sea. 4) "The first was like a lion, and it had the wings of an eagle. I watched until its wings were torn off and it was lifted from the ground so that it stood on two feet like a man, and the heart of a man was given to it. 5) Hand there before me was a second beast, which looked like a bear. It was raised up on one of its sides, and it had three ribs in its mouth between its teeth. It was told, 'Get up and eat your fill of flesh!' 6) After that, I looked, and there before me was another beast, one that looked like a leopard. And on its back it had four wings like those of a bird. This beast had four heads, and it was given authority to rule. 7) "After that, in my vision at night I looked, and there before me was a fourth beast--terrifying and frightening and very powerful It had large iron teeth; it crushed and devoured its victims and trampled underfoot whatever was left. It was different from all the former beasts, and it had ten horns. 8) While I was thinking about the horns, there before me was another horn, a little one, which came up among them; and three of the first horns were uprooted before it. This horn had eyes like the eyes of a man and a mouth that spoke boastfully."

11) Then I continued to watch because of the boastful words the horn was speaking. I kept looking until the beast was slain and its body destroyed and thrown into the blazing fire. 12) (The other beasts had been stripped of their authority, but were allowed to live for a period of time.)

17) "The four great beasts are four kingdoms that will rise from the earth.

19) Then I wanted to know the true meaning of the fourth beast, which was different from all the others and most terrifying, with its iron teeth and bronze claws--the beast that crushed and devoured its victims and trampled underfoot whatever was left. 20) I also wanted to know about the ten horns on its head and about the other horn that came up, before which three of them fell--the horn that looked more imposing than the others and that had eyes and a mouth that spoke boastfully. 21) As I watched, this horn was waging war against the saints and defeating them, 22) until the Ancient of Days came and pronounced judgment in favor of the saints of the Most High, and the time came when they possessed the kingdom. 23) He gave me this explanation: .The fourth beast is a fourth kingdom that will appear on earth. It will be different from all the other kingdoms and will devour the whole earth, treading it down and crushing it. 24) The ten horns are ten kings who will come from this kingdom. After them another king will arise, different from the earlier ones; he will subdue three kings. 25) He will speak against the Most High and oppress his saints and try to chance the set tines and the laws. The saints will be handed over to him for a time, times and half a time." 26) But the court will sit, and his power will be taken away and completely destroyed forever. 27) Then the sovereignty, power, and greatness of the kingdoms under the whole heaven will be handed over to the saints, the people of the Most High. His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom.

From the context of Daniel it is clear that the first three empires are Babylon, which carried Judah into captivity, Persia which nearly destroyed Israel through Haman's plot, and the Greek Empire of Alexander which eventually led to the terrible persecutions under Antiochus Epiphanes. The fourth empire must therefore be Rome, the oppressor of John's day which had ruthlessly devoured the world in its conquests. It is from this fourth Empire, Rome, that the horn arises who speaks boastfully and changes times and laws, who oppresses the saints throughout the time, times and half a time of the New Testament era. It is clear that Revelation 13 and 17 rest solidly on the foundation of Daniel 7.

In Daniel 8, there is another little horn who arises to oppress God's people, but he rises out of the Greek Empire, not out of Rome. He is Antiochus Epiphanes who bitterly persecuted Israel around 168 B.C., the time of the Maccabean revolt. This persecutor, Antiochus, is relevant to our discussion because in Daniel 11 he serves as a type of the Antichrist. (Daniel 11:36-45)

36) The king will do as he pleases. He will exalt and magnify himself above every god and will say unheard-of things against the God of gods. He will be successful until the time of wrath is completed, for what has been determined must take place. 37) He will show no regard for the gods of his fathers or for the desire of women. nor will he regard any god, but will exalt himself above them all. 38) Instead of them, he will honor a god of fortresses; a god unknown to his fathers he will honor with gold and silver, with precious stones and costly gifts. 39) He will attack the mightiest fortresses with the help of a foreign god and will greatly honor those who acknowledge him. He will make them rulers over many people and will distribute the land at a price. 40) At the time of the end the king of the South will engage him in battle, and the king of the North will storm out against him with chariots and cavalry and a great fleet of ships. He will invade many countries and sweep through them like a flood. 41) He will also invade the Beautiful Land. Many countries will fall, but Edom, Moab and the leaders of Ammon will be delivered from his hand. 42) He will extend his power over many countries; Egypt will not escape. 43) He will gain control of the treasures of gold and silver and all the riches of Egypt, with the Libyans and Nubians in submission. 44) But reports from the east and the north will alarm him, and he will set out in a great rage to destroy and annihilate many. 45) He will pitch his royal tents between the seas at the beautiful holy mountain. Yet he will come to his end, and no one will help him. In Matthew 24, Jesus discusses the fall of Jerusalem which took place in 70 A.D. This event is a type of the Last Judgment, which Jesus also discusses in Matthew 24. In the same way in his 11th chapter, Daniel begins with the arrogant oppressions of Antiochus the King of the North, who is the type, and finishes with the Antichrist, who is anti-type or fulfillment. Especially in verses 37-40, the Reformers and their heirs saw an apt description of the wars and wealth, the sale of church offices, and the enforced celibacy of the Antichrist. Because of the poor rendering in the NIV translation and other translations, verse 37 needs our special attention. Literally it reads, "For the God (or gods) of his fathers he will show no regard and for the desire of women and for every god he will not show regard." By its translation "the one desired by women," the NIV favors the interpretation that this verse refers to Tammuz, a heathen god whose cult especially attracted women (Ezekiel 8:14). The traditional Reformation interpretation was to see this verse as a reference to the scorn of normal sexual relations which underlies enforced celibacy. This interpretation fits whether one understands the phrase "desire of women" as meaning "the desire women have for men" (subjective genitive) or "the desire men have for women" (objective genitive). This interpretation already appears in the oldest extant commentary on Daniel, that of Jerome, who refers to the Antichrist's false pretense of chastity in his discussion of this passage. This passage is used by Chemnitz in his discussion of celibacy and explicitly applied to the papacy. It therefore is clear that this interpretation is worthy of serious consideration in spite of the remarks of commentators like Robert Anderson who says that the view which sees the Antichrist in Daniel 11 has "minimal appeal beyond the circle of some sects" and is "exegetically witless and religiously worthless."

In this survey, we have seen that the evidence identifying the Pope as the Antichrist is overwhelming.

In stating this teaching of the Bible, we are not speaking against Catholic people. In fact, we are expressing our concern for them since the anti-Christian elements in the teaching of the Church of Rome are a danger to everyone who is exposed to them. The teaching that our works play a role in obtaining our forgiveness is a danger to the salvation of everyone who hears it, so we must warn very strongly against it.

A brief explanation of our teaching concerning the Anti-christ is found in our collection of doctrinal statements which also is accessible on this web site. Our general concern about Catholic teaching and our concern for the spiritual welfare of Catholic people is summarized in the Bible Class, Catholicism Today.

 

What can be worse than the Catholic church teaching that you are not saved through Christ alone?!? <--the chior

[ March 03, 2002, 05:25 PM: Message edited by: tulpje ]

 

Everything in the Catholic Church is done with/for/to Christ. To say it is not is to willfully misunderstand Catholic doctrine.

Can you pull one line out of an autobiography and state that "this is what this person is ALL about!" Can you pull one line out of a movie that reveals the entire plot? Can you pull one verse out of the Bible and give complete meaning to Sacred Scriptures? No. Then you cannot also take single quotes from complete speeches/sermons, single verses or short quips from the Bible, or one paragraph from the Catechism and PROVE BEYOND THE SHADOW OF A DOUBT that the Catholic Church is not Christ-centered. This is your own (or your church's) interpretation, and it is false. I have yet to been to a Mass that was not all centered around Christ. The entire RCIA process is about the Triune God we worship. The sacraments are all about Jesus. Mary and the saints (just like the prophets) point to Jesus. Jesus. Jesus. Jesus.

 

In fact, if the Catholic Church is SBVIOUSLY against Christ, please show me where it says so. Please show me an official writing of the Church that says how unimportant Christ is. Do it. Please.

 

If the Catholic Church is not works righteous, then why were they selling indulgences at the Golden Jubilee of 2000??

As I said before, the simple fact that they claim that Christ is not the only way to salvation, that the only way to heaven is not throgh Christ, proves that they are the Antichrist. THIS is the fundamental message of the Gospel.

John 3

16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,[1] that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

John 5
23that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him.

John 5:24
"I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life

John 5:39
You diligently study[ 5:39 Or Study diligently (the imperative)] the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me,

John 6:33
For the bread of God is he who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world."

John 6:35
Then Jesus declared, "I am the bread of life. He who comes to me will never go hungry, and he who believes in me will never be thirsty.

John 6:40
For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."

John 6:47
I tell you the truth, he who believes has everlasting life

John 6:51
I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world."

John 6:53
Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.

John 6:54
Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:68
Simon Peter answered him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life.

John 5:40
yet you refuse to come to me to have life.

www.wels.net
A biblical understanding of the doctrine of the Antichrist is especially important at a time when Lutherans around the world have signed agreements on justification with Rome which really are no agreements. The pope has recently affirmed that Lutheran churches which have not preserved apostolic succession cannot even be called churches. All other churches can be considered saving churches only to the degree that their members are in imperfect communion with the bishop of Rome. In the recent jubilee year, the pope reaffirmed the practice of issuing indulgences. In spite of all this, Lutherans are negotiating the terms under which they can submit themselves to the papacy. Yet if we study Scripture and history, we see that nothing has changed since Luther made the clear declaration that the pope is the very Anti-Christ. If anything, the Roman Catholic Church has changed for the worse, since today it not only holds the same false doctrines that were proclaimed by the Council of Trent in the 16th century, but now it also has added the immaculate conception and assumption of Mary, papal infallibility, the possibility of salvation for the heathen, and the higher-critical approach to Scripture to the list of its unscriptural teachings.

 

Hi tulpje,

Your posts are rather interesting. I sure hope the Catholic Church isn't the antichrist; it would be a bummer to find that out.

Catechism of the Catholic Church, Paragraph 161:
"Believing in Jesus Christ and in the One who sent him for our salvation is necessary for obtaining that salvation. (Cf. Mk 16:16; Jn 3:36; Jn 6:40) Since without faith it is impossible to please God and to attain to the fellowship of his sons, therefore without faith no one has ever attained justification, nor will anyone obtain eternal life But he who endures to the end."

Your brother, faithfully in Christ,

Carson

 

Please take no offense here, but you just showed your ignorance of the subject. Indulgences do not get you salvation. Indulgences relieve the temporal punishment due to sin, here on earth, instead of in purgatory. Now, regardless that you don't believe in purgatory or the temporal punishment due to sin, that does not hold any validty to your point. You can only get an indulgence after you've been forgiven of your sins. That means: you're already in God's grace. Indulgences are 100% non necessary if you don't want to do them. You can do no indulgences and be "saved" the same as one who is always doing indulgences. Indulgences do not give you a second chance. Indulgences do not provide forgiveness or grace. Indulgences do not save you, because you have to be saved in Christ before you are granted one.

 

Might I add that "issuing indulgences" and "selling indulgences" is not in ANY means the same thing, and you are being malicious to even say it. Indulgences are granted for Bible study, fervent prayer, and other pious acts. They do not remit sins; they are only granted after one has been to Confession. And, again, it's for the removal of the temporal punishment due to sin, which is entirely different from sin itself. All in purgatory (whom indulgences benefit) go to Heaven. No one in purgatory does NOT go to Heaven. Get your doctrine straight.

 

But why then is the church saying that Muslims have salvation because they believe in the god of Abraham. Which, by the way they don't. The triune God was present throughout the OT and was revealed to Abraham.

SALVATION INCLUDES THE MUSLIMS

841 The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day.

This isn't an exerpt out of the Catholic Catechism as jasonW says? Interesting.

http://www.carm.org/catholic/muslims.htm
Is the Catholic Catechism's view
on the Muslim god wrong?


According to the Catechism of the Catholic Church, paragraph 841, Muslims together with the Catholics, "adore the one, merciful God." This cannot be true. The Muslims and Catholics do not adore the same God. In order to provide sufficient context for the quote from the Catechism, I have cited 2 paragraphs before and after paragraph 841.

839 "Those who have not yet received the Gospel are related to the People of God in various ways."[325] The relationship of the Church with the Jewish People. When she delves into her own mystery, the Church, the People of God in the New Covenant, discovers her link with the Jewish People,[326] "the first to hear the Word of God."[327] The Jewish faith, unlike other non-Christian religions, is already a response to God's revelation in the Old Covenant. To the Jews "belong the sonship, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises; to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ",[328] "for the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable."[329]

840 And when one considers the future, God's People of the Old Covenant and the new People of God tend towards similar goals: expectation of the coming (or the return) of the Messiah. But one awaits the return of the Messiah who died and rose from the dead and is recognized as Lord and Son of God; the other awaits the coming of a Messiah, whose features remain hidden till the end of time; and the latter waiting is accompanied by the drama of not knowing or of misunderstanding Christ Jesus.
841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."[330]
842 The Church's bond with non-Christian religions is in the first place the common origin and end of the human race: All nations form but one community. This is so because all stem from the one stock which God created to people the entire earth, and also because all share a common destiny, namely God. His providence, evident goodness, and saving designs extend to all against the day when the elect are gathered together in the holy city. . .[331]
843 "The Catholic Church recognizes in other religions that search, among shadows and images, for the God who is unknown yet near since he gives life and breath and all things and wants all men to be saved. Thus, the Church considers all goodness and truth found in these religions as 'a preparation for the Gospel and given by him who enlightens all men that they may at length have life.'
If the Catholic Church is stating in paragraph 841 above, in the Catechism of the Catholic Church, that there are those within the Muslim community who may find salvation by becoming Christians and not remaining Muslims, then I would agree. But, it does not appear to be saying this.
What is disturbing is the statement that "together with us they [Muslims] adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day." So, Catholics and Muslims both "adore the one, merciful God." Quite frankly, it would seem that the Roman Catholic church has a faulty understanding of the God of Islam.
Islam acknowledges that it serves the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. But in so doing it is stating that Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, were Muslims! Furthermore, Islam denies that God is a Trinity.

"They do blaspheme who say: Allah is one of three in a Trinity: for there is no god except One Allah. If they desist not from their word (of blasphemy), verily a grievous penalty will befall the blasphemers among them," (Quran 5:73, Yusufali).
"They surely disbelieve who say: Lo! Allah is the third of three; when there is no Allah save the One Allah. If they desist not from so saying a painful doom will fall on those of them who disbelieve," (Quran 5:73, Pickthal). See Chapter five of Online version of Quran.
Since the Trinity is the true biblical doctrine of God, how can the Muslims who deny the Trinity "adore the one, merciful God"? They cannot. Furthermore, in Christianity, Jesus is divine in nature (John 1:1,14; Col. 2:9). Yet, the Quran states that Jesus is not divine:

"They indeed have disbelieved who say: Lo! Allah is the Messiah, son of Mary. Say: Who then can do aught against Allah, if He had willed to destroy the Messiah son of Mary, and his mother and everyone on earth? Allah's is the Sovereignty of the heavens and the earth and all that is between them. He createth what He will. And Allah is Able to do all things," (Quran 5:17, Pickthal).
"And the Jews say: Ezra is the son of Allah, and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah. That is their saying with their mouths. They imitate the saying of those who disbelieved of old. Allah (Himself) fighteth against them. How perverse are they!" (Quran 5:30, Pickthal)
Obviously, the Muslims do not adore the one true merciful God because they serve a false god. They deny the Trinity and the deity of Christ. Quite simply, they deny the true God and are not capable of adoring the true God as long as they hold to the false teachings of Islam. Therefore the paragraph in the CCC cannot be correct.

"The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day." (CCC 841).

 

Hi tulpje,

Yep, you're right.. Catholics believe Muslims can be saved - whatever itches your ears.

Again, I'll repeat paragraph 161 of the Catechism for you: "Believing in Jesus Christ and in the One who sent him for our salvation is necessary for obtaining salvation" Go on and do your selective jumprope exercise, telling the Church just what she believes, and ignore the context of the whole of Catholic doctrine.. go right on ahead and see how far you'll get with the Catholics on the board.. I promise it won't be that far.

God bless you,

Carson

PS - The reason the Catechism includes this paragraph is to further ecumenical relations w/ Islam in order to bring the saving message of the Gospel to Muslims.

[ March 03, 2002, 08:33 PM: Message edited by: Carson Weber ]

 

Wow. Is it just me, or did you totally just revert to another subject? Looks like you got the answer to the other question. Glad I could help.

God bless,

Grant

 

The issuence of indulgences, the sale of indulgences... what the difference? "it has long been customary to extend this indulgence the following year to the faithful throughout the world. For this fresh conditions are appointed, usually including a certain number of visits to local churches and sometimes fasting or other works of charity." So, you don't have to give money but good works? They are still a form of works. For forgiveness of sins you can obtain an indulgence by "a certain number of visits to local churches and sometimes fasting or other works of charity."
Hmm... Interesting. They still say it's wrong at my church, and remeber Martin Luther was the one who wrote the 95 Thesis.

THE JUBILEE INDULGENCE

This is a plenary indulgence which, as stated by Boniface VIII in Consistory, it is the intention of the Holy See to grant in the most ample manner possible. Of course, when first conceded, such an indulgence, and also the privilege annexed of choosing a confessor who had power to absolve from reserved cases, was a much rarer spiritual boon than it has since become. So preeminent was the favour then regarded that the custom arose of suspending all other indulgences during the Jubilee year, a practice which, with certain modifications, still obtains at the present day. The precise conditions for gaining each Jubilee are determined by the Roman pontiff, and they are usually announced in a special Bull, distinct from that which it is customary to issue on the preceding feast of the Ascension giving notice of the forthcoming celebration. The main conditions, however, which do not usually vary, are three: confession, Communion and visits to the four basilicas during a certain specified period. The statement made by some, that the Jubilee indulgence, being a culpa et a paena, did not of old presuppose either confession or repentance, is absolutely without foundation, and is contradicted by every official document preserved to us.

Besides the ordinary Jubilee indulgence, to be gained only by pilgrims who pay a visit to Rome, or through special concession by certain cloistered religious confined within their monasteries, it has long been customary to extend this indulgence the following year to the faithful throughout the world. For this fresh conditions are appointed, usually including a certain number of visits to local churches and sometimes fasting or other works of charity. Further, the popes have constantly exercised their prerogative of conceding to all the faithful indulgences ad instar jubilaei (after the model of a jubilee) which are commonly known as "extraordinary Jubilees". On these occasions, as at the Jubilee itself, special facilities are usually accorded for absolution from reserved cases, though on the other hand, the great indulgence is only to be gained by the performance of conditions much more onerous than those required for an ordinary plenary indulgence. Such extraordinary Jubilees are commonly granted by a newly elected pontiff at his accession or on occasions of some unwonted celebration, as was done, for example, at the convening of the First Vatican Council, or again at times of great calamity.

 

From the website you linked us to:

"If the Catholic Church is stating in paragraph 841 above, in the Catechism of the Catholic Church, that there are those within the Muslim community who may find salvation by becoming Christians and not remaining Muslims, then I would agree. But, it does not appear to be saying this."

The author states that he isn't for sure what the Catechism is saying, or else he wouldn't be talking about what "appears to be" there and what "is" there. Since it doesn't appear to say something, he goes on to state what it really says based on what he wants to think it really says. That's a great way to write fiction.

God bless,

Grant

 

Hi tulpje,

Since you've declared yourself the expert in Catholic thought and doctrine on this board, would you mind providing the conditions under which one validly receives any given indulgence?

Thanks,

Carson

 

You read a quote, and then you again added "forgiveness of sins." If you read the article, you'd see that the criteria for gaining this plenary indulgence was first and foremost to go to Confession. If you've been to confession, your sins have already been forgiven. How then, as you assert, does this indulgence forgive your sins? You're making this stuff up.

Also, "selling" an indulgence is not the same thing as "issuing" it. The criteria for receiving an indulgence is more about incentive than "paying a fee." And when you give a donation to your church are you "selling" yourself to it? No. So don't think it's that way with Catholics, either.

God bless,

Grant

 

PS - The reason the Catechism includes this paragraph is to further ecumenical relations w/ Islam in order to bring the saving message of the Gospel to Muslims.

But then the author goes on to say what it actually does say!!

Carson those two statements in the Catholic Catechism contridict one another.

Now I would like to ask my panal of experts that if this is sooo... If the Catholic church doesn't REALLY mean what it said in it's catechism, then why did it participate in every interfaith service after 9/11 including Oprah's Prayer for America at Yankee Stadium?? That's syncretism. Syncretism is the merging or union of conflicting religious beliefs which forms a new religious philosophy.

This is what my synod had to say about participating in that prayer service:

http://www.wels.net/sab/frm-qa.html
To participate in services in which Allah of the Muslims is treated as the same God as the God of Christianity is a loveless denial of the truth, which in at least one respect is worse than what the terrorists did. The terrorist attack cut short the earthly lives of thousands of innocent people. Every day Islam sends many more people to eternal death in hell than the terrorists killed in this horrible attack. Islam vehemently denies that Jesus is God. It vehemently rejects God's way to salvation. I know of no honest Muslim who would say that his God is the same as the God of Christians. Yet in many of these services Islamic prayer was set beside Christian prayer as if both were prayer to the same God. This should horrify Christians just as much as the terrorist attack did.

We rightfully honor the firemen and police officers who risked everything to do anything they could to save people from the flames of the World Trade Center, yet we are supposed to consider it loving and tolerant to silently abandon people to religions which destroy their souls forever. How can this be?

A terrorist attack like the terrifying one we have witnessed does indeed create a special situation. The special situation is that if I were on the scene, I would ministry to every wounded or dying person by directing his or her attention to Christ their savior without being concerned about what church or religion they belonged to. It does not mean I could comfort them by praying to Allah or Mary on their behalf. It means I would do everything possible to prepare them to meet God in Christ. Such a disaster also reminds me that if I have Jewish or Muslim or Hindu or Buddhist friends, I should not be waiting till the desperate hours of death to tell them about Christ. I should be doing it now while there is still time.

Religious comfort has value only if it is based on something real. Only the comfort that is based on Jesus' death and resurrection is real. Now when so many people are torn by this terrible tragedy we should be directing them to real comfort, not joining in comfort which is shallow and false. We should be saddened by this disaster. It is heartbreaking to think of so many young lives ended, of spouses and young children left alone. But in these sad days have we felt even greater sorrow that so many victims of the attacks were not spiritually prepared to meet the only God? For the terrorists too we should feel a measure of sorrow, that for them the flames did not end in that fiery crash but only began, that they have lost forever the happiness a loving Father had prepared also for them.

In such hours of horror we can't join in dispensing useless pain killer that makes it feel better for awhile but does nothing to heal the disease. If you have the medicine that heals forever, how can you fail to warn against useless placebos?

 

How can you bring peace to "warring" religions if you offer no tolerance? First we most tolerate and love those who share different beliefs so that we might bring them to know Christ. If we will not associate ourselves with them, and call joint meetings as bad as the slaughter of over a 1000 innocent lives, how do you expect to make progress? If I was a Muslim and read what you just wrote, I would hate Christianity, because you do not aid in conversion by condemnation.

 

tulpj, your synod is very pharisee-like.