Trib begins

I’m sorry but by the time I get back to this board so much has been posted that it takes me an hour or so to assimilate it all. By that time I don’t have enough time to put my nickels worth in. So I’ll just go back to a post I made earlier. I don’t have all the answers, but I have many questions. Ed answered the one about how many have died from wars, famines, plagues and pestilence since A.D. 70. I disagree with him, but I will not clog this post with the numbers I have gathered.
By the way Ed I don't really have a point, just questions.
I was reading in one of the C.S. Lewis books, can’t remember which one, but he said something that I think would go well in this discussion, and I will have to paraphrase: In things essential let there be unity, in things not essential let there be liberty, above all let there be love. I don’t really think that if you disagree with me that you are in error, or a Papist, or a Red Neck either.

Question: If, in many of the parables that Jesus taught, why did He say that the unrighteous would be removed and the righteous would be left? (Lk. 19:12-27; Mat. 13:36-43; Mat 24:36-40)

Ray Berrian said something that I have always had trouble with .. "The Restrainer, the Holy Spirit, who lived in the lives of the saved will no longer be here to hold the standard of evil in this world."...."The rapture saints and the Great Tribulation saints will return with Christ to destroy the enemies of Christ."
Question: If the Holy Spirit is gone how can anyone be saved? (Jn. 16: 8-11)..Could the restrainer be the conscience of man which is getting duller and duller each day at an alarming rate?

In the Revelation of Jesus Christ John says that what he saw was in heaven and he has written it down.
Question: Just which part of the book do you take literally and which part do you look at symbolically? Even Paul refused to put into words what he saw because he did not have words to describe it. John looked into a place that is timeless, so how can we attribute a certain time to what he saw?

Again Ray said: “Count up the long list of events that I have pointed to and you will see that some of you have missed the whole point and purpose of the Book of Revelation and that is to open our eyes as to what we need to avoid. {Great Tribulation-for example}”
I do humbly disagree, the whole point of the book is this – Rev. 1:1. The Revelation (Unveiling) of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show to His bond-servants, the things which must soon take place; and He sent and communicated {it} by His angel to His bond-servant John, 2. who testified to the word of God and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, {even} to all that he saw. The unveiling of Jesus, I believe to be the central point of the book.

Question: Since Satan holds the title deed to this world (Jesus didn’t argue that point during the temptation) wouldn’t he have every legal right to do what he wants with it?
Mat. 12:25. And knowing their thoughts Jesus said to them, "Any kingdom divided against itself is laid waste; and any city or house divided against itself will not stand. 26. "If Satan casts out Satan, he is divided against himself; how then will his kingdom stand? 27. "If I by Beelzebul cast out demons, by whom do your sons cast {them} out? For this reason they will be your judges. 28. "But if I cast out demons by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you. 29. "Or how can anyone enter the strong man's house and carry off his property, unless he first binds the strong {man?} And then he will plunder his house. (Lk. 11:17-23; Mk.3:23-27)

Question: If Satan is already bound, why would he have to be bound again?

One more question: How can you be a whole person without a body? Where are we when we are out of the body? Do we really go to heaven as disembodied spirits? Or do we sleep until the Last Day?
Young's Bible 1 John 3:2 beloved, now, children of God are we, and it was not yet manifested what we shall be, and we have known that if he may be manifested, like him we shall be, because we shall see him as he is;
(KJV) 2 Corinthians 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
(William's NT) 2 Corinthians 5:3 and if I do put it on, I shall not find myself to be disembodied.
{Thayer’s Greek NT Dictionary}(Naked) of the soul, whose garment is the body, stripped of the body, without a body)
(RSV) 5:4 For while we are still in this tent, we sigh with anxiety; not that we would be unclothed, but that we would be further clothed, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life. 5:5 He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.
(KJV) 6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: 5:7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight
(NAS)5:8. we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent (to go abroad , emigrate, depart, to be or live abroad: another country) from the body and to be at home (to be among one’s own people, dwell in one’s own country, stay at home) with the Lord.

5:9 Wherefore also we are ambitious, whether at home or away from home, to be well pleasing to him,
5:10 For all of us must appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each of us may receive what he deserves for what he has done in his body, whether good or worthless.

International English-John 14:1 ``Don't let your heart be troubled. You trust in God; trust in me, also.
Darby's Bible-John 14:2 In my Father's house there are many abodes; were it not so, I had told you: for I go to prepare you a place;
KJV-John 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

KJV1 John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

 

Shewfly,

You said, 'I don't really think that if you disagree with me that you are in error, or a Papist, or a Red Neck either.'

Ray is saying, 'There cannot be two rights but there can be two different concepts that are wrong. When people say Papists it usually is a put down word. And yet you must realize that this present Pope ignores human rights and justice, when he whispers in the ear of our President that we should not be ridding the world of terrorism and wicked men. The Vatican, I am told, has representatives to all countries of the world. He is pushing his political agenda as much as trying to be the leader of the Catholic world's cliente. As to Red Necks, I think they are in the north, east, south and western parts of our country. It does not mean they are bad but they do represent a certain kind of culture. Would you agree with me about your term, Red Necks?'

You said, 'Question: If, in many of the parables that Jesus taught, why did He say that
the unrighteous would be removed and the righteous would be left? (Lk.
19:12-27; Mat. 13:36-43; Mat 24:36-40)

Ray: 'In using the Matthew passage, he is saying that the field {symbolically} represents the whole earth. The tares are the enemies and those who ignore Christ. We, the saved ones, are often spoken of at the wheat. In verse 39 Jesus will come at His Second Coming to place the tares into the 'furnace of fire.' The saved are mentioned in verse 43.'

You said, Question: If the Holy Spirit is gone how can anyone be saved? (Jn. 16:
8-11)..Could the restrainer be the conscience of man which is getting duller
and duller each day at an alarming rate?

Ray: Sinners who are left here at the time of the rapture will have no Christian witnesses to tell them what has happened. The Bibles will be here, but when the 'mark of the beast' is marked on the right hand or forehead, it will be the responsibility of each sinner either to take it or refuse it. Refusal will bring dead but they will attain everlasting life. [Rev.13:15-18] Sinners will be left with a conscience, but the heart of man will remain evil, just as it has always been.'

You said, 'Question: Just which part of the book do you take literally and which part do
you look at symbolically?

Ray: 'The Book of Revelation is to be taken literally except where God intends to make something symbolic. As we read of the tares in Matthew, it merely takes common sense and the Holy Spirit to figure it out.'

You said, 'Even Paul refused to put into words what he saw
because he did not have words to describe it. John looked into a place that
is timeless, so how can we attribute a certain time to what he saw?'

Ray: 'What God portrays from Heaven in the Book of Revelation has to do with facets of time. For example: 1,000 years means a Millennium of time on this earth which is corroborated in Zechariah 14 and Revelation 20.'

You said, 'I do humbly disagree, the whole point of the book is this - Rev. 1:1. The
Revelation (Unveiling) of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show to His
bond-servants, the things which must soon take place; and He sent and
communicated {it} by His angel to His bond-servant John, 2. who testified
to the word of God and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, {even} to all that
he saw. The unveiling of Jesus, I believe to be the central point of the book.'

Ray: I agree with you partially. Hey, Christ was unveiled in the four Gospels long before the first verse of Revelation was written down on a roll of parchment. There is more than enough truth in the Gospels to get the whole world saved and ready for Heaven.'

You said, 'Question: Since Satan holds the title deed to this world (Jesus didn't argue
that point during the temptation) wouldn't he have every legal right to do
what he wants with it?'

Ray: 'Satan is the 'god of this world' says the Bible, and yet Almighty God is providentially moving things along to the end of human history. God is in control.'

Question: If Satan is already bound, why would he have to be bound again?

Ray: Only foolish Calvinists believe the above. The Devil is loose and has been since Genesis. After the rapture and Great Tribulation Satan will be bound, God says, for one thousand years, so that Jesus can rule from Jerusalem during His Millennial reign on the earth. It will be basically like Heaven on earth. After the Millennial rule there will be what is called the Battle of Gog and Magog, in Jerusalem where they will try to destroy the Lord's rule and Temple, [20:8] plus the wicked dead will rise from their graves [Rev. 20:5} and will face the Great White Throne Judgment which is for lost sinners. [20:11-15]'

You said, 'One more question: How can you be a whole person without a body? Where
are we when we are out of the body?

Ray: Read II Corinthians 5:8 & Philippians 1:23. At death we go to be with Jesus and we will see His throne and His holiness/Christ sitting on His royal throne.'

'Do we really go to heaven as disembodied spirits?

Ray: No, read II Corinthians 5:1-4.'

'Or do we sleep until the Last Day?'

Ray: 'No, we immediately go into the Presence of the Lamb of God. When Christ comes back for His church {I Thess. 4:17} He will resurrect the human body/remains and the living Christians will go immediately to Heaven, to be evaluated before the Judgment Seat of Christ. [II Cor. 5:10]'

Ray is saying: 'All of your below verses are wonderful promises to the children of God.'

You are quoting Scripture.

Young's Bible 1 John 3:2 beloved, now, children of God are we, and it was
not yet manifested what we shall be, and we have known that if he may be
manifested, like him we shall be, because we shall see him as he is;
(KJV) 2 Corinthians 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of this
tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made
with hands, eternal in the heavens.
(William's NT) 2 Corinthians 5:3 and if I do put it on, I shall not find myself to
be disembodied.
{Thayer's Greek NT Dictionary}(Naked) of the soul, whose garment is the
body, stripped of the body, without a body)
(RSV) 5:4 For while we are still in this tent, we sigh with anxiety; not that
we would be unclothed, but that we would be further clothed, so that what
is mortal may be swallowed up by life. 5:5 He who has prepared us for this
very thing is God, who has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.
(KJV) 6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at
home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: 5:7 (For we walk by faith,
not by sight
(NAS)5:8. we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent (to
go abroad , emigrate, depart, to be or live abroad: another country) from
the body and to be at home (to be among one's own people, dwell in one's
own country, stay at home) with the Lord.

5:9 Wherefore also we are ambitious, whether at home or away from
home, to be well pleasing to him,
5:10 For all of us must appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that
each of us may receive what he deserves for what he has done in his body,
whether good or worthless.

International English-John 14:1 ``Don't let your heart be troubled. You trust
in God; trust in me, also.
Darby's Bible-John 14:2 In my Father's house there are many abodes; were
it not so, I had told you: for I go to prepare you a place;
KJV-John 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and
receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

KJV1 John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet
appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall
be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

Ray: 'I think I John 3:2 is my favorite Scripture as a Christian in all of the Bible.'

Regards,
Berrian, Th.D.

 

Your answer is really tautological and thus a non-answer. How do we know which in instances God "intends" for us to take the passage symbolically? It doesn't say: "Now these are verses that the LORD God intends us to take symbolically rather than literally." How does one know? Appealling to "common sense" and the "Holy Spirit" doesn't solve things, because there are many who make these appeals yet come to conflicting conclusions regarding the meaning of these passages.

 

My argument was not tautological as you have tried to indicate.

As I was correctly taught in Bible College there is an unholy trinity. These personalities are referred to in Revelation 20:10. The corresponding opposite of the Father is the Devil, the opposite of the Son our Savior is the 'antichrist/the Beast' meaning the counterfeit of the Son, and the antithesis of our great Teacher--the Holy Spirit [I John 2:27] is the 'false prophet.' [Revelation 20:10] The 'false prophet's' mission during the Great Tribulation will be to preach and witness to the idea that the antichrist really is the Christ, the Son of the Living God, and many during these brief years will believe this lying personage.

The symbolism of tares represents the wicked, lost souls; the 'wheat' suggests all those who are in a faith trust with the Lord God. Matthew 13:30 says,

'Let both grow together until the harvest; and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them; but gather the wheat into My barn.'

A similar metaphor is found in Matthew 3:12. ' . . . gather the wheat into the garner; but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.' These are the words of our Lord.

The Lord was not being needlessly repetitive when He placed some happenings in the four Gospels, or don't you like Jesus' style of writing?

 

One thing I don't like about boards, you cannot see the tongue in cheek when someone says: "I don't really think that if you disagree with me that you are in error, or a Papist, or a Red Neck either."
I was born and raised in a small rural community in South Mississippi, and do have more dogs than I need, also call my children young'uns. So according to a famous comic I might be a Red Neck.

Ray, it is my opinion that the Gospels were the unveiling of our Father as well as the Son. If I were ask 10 people, why did Jesus come? I would likely get 10 different answers - all of them being right! But, there is only one answer that will suffice..He came to do the Father's will.. and that one answer covers all the others to a T. So,there are occasions where more than one answer is correct.
Ever thought about this: Of all the emotions expressed by God in the O.T. He never cried, never tasted the salty tears of grief Jesus wept. How wonderful, God tasted of the tears and shared in our humanity. Jesus revealed perfectly the God of the O.T.
I appreciate the time you took to answer some of my questions, but, as Doubting Thomas says, I am left unsatisfied with the answers.
What about those dead now and in the past, are they naked? Are they disembodied spirits in heaven with Jesus?
And again, can you be a person without a body?
God created time and space, He is not confined to it. He is the A and Z. It is my opinion that He can enter time at any point that He wishes, that He knows the beginning, the end and all in between.
I don't know diddly about Calvinism, I look at it this way, God knows that the Saints (tongue in cheek) will win the super bowl at the end of the season. Players come and go from the beginning to the end, some are injured, some are traded, some quit. It is the ones that are on the roster at the end that get the ring.
Again, how can we by study alone, even with Bible College professors as out teachers determine what is literal and what is symbolic without His Light revealing it to us? (Jn.5:39,40)
It is my opinion that that Satan was defeated at the cross and our Kinsman Redeemer took back the title deed and Satan cannot touch the property of God without His permission. Jn.12:31. "Now judgment is upon this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out." "Now" is pretty specific about the time frame. It is my opinion that Satan's nature has not changed, he still is an adversary, a liar, and a murderer. He can still cause people and nations to imitate his nature.
I'm just as happy as a dead hog in the sunshine that I did get to see your posts before 30-40 were sent and it would take me hours to read all of them, now I will sit back and read some of those I missed. No one, so far has posted something that I did not learn something and for that I thank each one of you.

 

How does the non rapture, no physical Millinnial Kingdom fulfill 1 Thessalonians 4:18:
"Therefore encourage each other with these words."

Strawman: Rapture is not in the Bible.
Make that the term "rapture" is not in the
Bible.

Actually the term "rapture" is in the Latin
Bible. It is the "caugut up" in the
King James Version of 1 Thessalonians 4:17.

 

Jude: "and BTW, we have been in the
'great tribulatin/great ordeal since 33A.D."

This statement trivializes what Jesus
said in Matthew 24:21-22. Your statement
makes 1/3 of human history the worse ever
(and BTW the last 2,000 years really have not
been as bad as the 4,000 before that.
Thre are actually people who get enough
to eat some years in some places.

 

With Christ's coming, Satan WAS/IS Bound!
Matt. 12.25-29
Jesus knew their thoughts and said to them, “Every kingdom divided against itself will be ruined, and every city or household divided against itself will not stand. If Satan drives out Satan, he is divided against himself. How then can his kingdom stand? And if I drive out demons by Beelzebub, by whom do your people drive them out? So then, they will be your judges. But if I drive out demons by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you. “Or again, how can anyone enter a strong man’s house and carry off his possessions unless he first ties up the strong man? Then he can rob his house.


Matt. 9.32-33 While they were going out, a man who was demon-possessed and could not talk was brought to Jesus. And when the demon was driven out, the man who had been mute spoke. The crowd was amazed and said, “Nothing like this has ever been seen in Israel.”

During the Church Age (the millenium of Rev. 20)Satan is not able to thwart the will and plan of God--the Gospel is preached and received, and the Church IS extending the boundaries of the Kingdom of God.

 

We are encouraged to know Christ will come again. This passage has nothing to do with a 'rapture' or a so-called Millenial Kingdom.

 

Mt.24.21-22 "For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now — and never to be equaled again.If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened."

This section in Mt. 24 likely points to 70 A.D., and -probably- also the end of time. I don't rule out, at all, some kind of 'end time' horror, with an antichrist of some kind. But I do believe, from a biblical perspective, that the 'Great Ordeal' and the 'Last Days' are the past 2,000 years.

I do find the following statement of Jesus to be one of the most interesting He ever made...

Mt.24. 34 "I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened."

What does 'generation' mean? Was Jesus wrong? (as C.S. Lewis seemed to suggest, BTW)

 

shewfly,

You said, 'Ray, it is my opinion that the Gospels were the unveiling of our Father as
well as the Son. If I were ask 10 people, why did Jesus come? I would likely
get 10 different answers - all of them being right! But, there is only one
answer that will suffice..He came to do the Father's will.. and that one
answer covers all the others to a T. So,there are occasions where more
than one answer is correct.'

Ray: I agree with you fully. The Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, the one God sent and revealed, with clarity, Almighty God to human beings.'

You said, 'Ever thought about this: Of all the emotions expressed by God in the O.T.
He never cried, never tasted the salty tears of grief Jesus wept. How
wonderful, God tasted of the tears and shared in our humanity. Jesus
revealed perfectly the God of the O.T.'

Ray: 'I agree with you. I believe God still was grieved with the Israelites when the worshipped foreign gods. We are blessed beyond words, because Jesus is the embodiment of the Godhead and He came in human flesh. In theology we call this the Hypostatic Union. Jesus became the Son of God and the Son of Man; all in one person.'

You said, 'I appreciate the time you took to answer some of my questions, but, as
Doubting Thomas says, I am left unsatisfied with the answers.
What about those dead now and in the past, are they naked? Are they
disembodied spirits in heaven with Jesus?

Ray: I say it a different way for you both. The Apostle Paul said in II Corinthians 5:1-4 that as soon as he died he would be clothed with a spiritual body like Jesus had on earth after His resurrection. On the eve of the resurrection He passed through the walls and stood in the Presence of the hiding apostles. They were frightened.'

You said, 'And again, can you be a person without a body?'

Ray: As soon as we die and God takes us to Heaven we receive the above documented Heavenly body; this is how we will recognize our loved ones because there will be a likeness of our former humanity and yet an eternal spiritual body.' Paul in the same chapter indicates that at the time of our passing out of this life, we will immediately be in His holy Presence above. [vs. 8]

You said, 'God created time and space, He is not confined to it. He is the A and Z. It is
my opinion that He can enter time at any point that He wishes, that He
knows the beginning, the end and all in between.'

Ray: I agree 100%.

You said, 'I don't know diddly about Calvinism,'

Ray: Knowing your Bible is more important than what various men have to say about the Biblical writings.'

You said, 'I look at it this way, God knows that
the Saints (tongue in cheek) will win the super bowl at the end of the
season. Players come and go from the beginning to the end, some are
injured, some are traded, some quit. It is the ones that are on the roster at
the end that get the ring.'

Ray: 'Yes our faith will bring us to an eternity with Jesus; that's all that matters.'

You said, 'Again, how can we by study alone, even with Bible College professors as out
teachers determine what is literal and what is symbolic without His Light
revealing it to us? (Jn.5:39,40)

Ray: 'You are right again. Even some Bible teachers get things wrong, but we hope that evangelical ones get most of it correct. It is our responsibility to check their views to see if they agree with the Bible, the Word of God.' [I John 2:27] The Spirit of God explains truth to our mind and inner being.'

You said, 'It is my opinion that that Satan was defeated at the cross and our Kinsman
Redeemer took back the title deed and Satan cannot touch the property of
God without His permission. Jn.12:31. "Now judgment is upon this world;
now the ruler of this world will be cast out." "Now" is pretty specific about
the time frame. It is my opinion that Satan's nature has not changed, he still
is an adversary, a liar, and a murderer. He can still cause people and nations
to imitate his nature.'

Ray: Good preaching! I wish that every church got at least this much truth as you stated above, on every Lord's Day. They would have something to put in their cud for reflection and nourishment from Monday to Saturday.'

I think you will find this interesting. Philip [Acts 8:39] was miraculously bodily transported from Gaza [vs. 26] to Azotus by Almighty God. The same word in the Greek for the words 'caught away' in transporting Phillip is also put to use in I Thessalonians 4:17a 'caught up'. The Greek word is the base word, 'harpazo.' The word means 'to seize, to take by force, or to catch away. All three definitions are fitting.

God speaking through the Apostle Paul uses these words to explain the removal of the church, the living and the dead, to Heaven. Theologians use the word the Rapture to explain the truth. The word may not seem like the best word, but that is the way it has been handled by the wisest of spiritual men and women. Other references to this (harpazo/the catching away is used in II Corinthians 12:2 and Revelation 12:5.

The Second Coming is not a catching away of the saints, but the return of the victors over death and Hell as duly penned with the words found in Revelation 19:11-21 especially in verse 14. 'The armies of Heaven followed Jesus . . . ' from the Heavenly abode above down to earth to destroy the Christ haters and all who have neglected having a lively faith in Jesus Christ for salvation.

I sense that you are my brother in Christ.

' . . . in Christ' [I Thessalonians 4:16d]

 

Ed Edwards & Jude,

Dr. Wilbur M. Smith from Fuller Theological Seminary in Pasadena wrote in his commentary of explanation--on the Book of Revelation these words.

'Some have placed it {the writing of the Book of Revelation} as early as the reign of Nero, in the seventh decade of the first century. But for many reasons it seems that this is too early. The unanimous verdict of the early church was that the Apostle John was banished to the Isle of Patmos by the emperor Domitian (A.D. 81-96) ; some writers placing the exile in the fourteenth year of his reign, A.D. 95. The Apocalypse clearly reveals that it was written in a time of great persecution. The persecution under Nero was more or less confined to Rome, but that under Domitian reached to other parts of the Roman Empire. Domitian banished men to various places of exile, but Nero did not. Furthermore, the seven churches in Asia here show a mature development, which could hardly have existed as early as A.D. 65. Moreover, we have no evidence whatever that the Apostle exercised any authority over the churches of Asia before the Destruction of Jerusalem. {With this view agree such writers as Lange, Alford, Elliott, Godet, Lee, Milligan and others} end quote.

Dr. Berrian: 'There is the 'argument from silence' that Revelation had been written later than 70 A.D. otherwise, the Apostle John would have mentioned this monumental event in Jewish history, remembering that all but St. Luke were Israelite writers of His Word. Moreover, if the Preterists view were Biblical, John would have assuredly made us aware of this monstrous and terrible day in Jewish history, because teachers of this erring view so often speak of this defining moment.'

Dr. Merrill C. Tenney, earned his Ph.D. from Harvard University and taught at Wheaton Graduate School of Theology and has said, 'Conservative though attributes it to John, the son of Zebedee, who probably wrote it about A.D. 95 in the reign of Domitian. The Western church accepted it as canonical; the Easter church did not receive it until about 500.'

Dr. Berrian: Matthew was written before 70 A.D. also because Jesus said, 'Verily I say unto you, all these things shall come on this generation meaning the Destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple. Notice the future tense 'shall' come on you. [Matt. 23:36-39]

Dr. Homer A. Kent, Professor of New Testament and Greek at Grace Theological Seminary, Winona Lake, Indiania says,

'The date of Mathew's Gospel must be prior to A.D. 70, for there is no hint in it that Jerusalem was in ruins (all predictions of its destruction being clearly prophetic).' "The Wycliffe Bible Commentary", Moody Press, p. 929.

Dr. Berrian: 'All events in the Book of Revelation were after 95 A.D. which means that the Lord's truth to His churches most surely speaks of future events after 95. This is why the Futurist view of Biblical interpretation is most safe to believe and retain in our understanding.'

Regards brethren . . . .

 

Jude,

You said, 'Originally posted by Ed Edwards:
Jude: "and BTW, we have been in the
'great tribulatin/great ordeal since 33A.D."

This statement trivializes what Jesus
said in Matthew 24:21-22. Your statement
makes 1/3 of human history the worse ever
(and BTW the last 2,000 years really have not
been as bad as the 4,000 before that.
Thre are actually people who get enough
to eat some years in some places.


Mt.24.21-22 "For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the
beginning of the world until now - and never to be equaled again.If those
days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the
elect those days will be shortened."

Ray: Jesus is pointing to the future Great Tribulation. Please, read my last post on page 7 as to the time of writing of the Book of Revelation.

Jude said, 'This section in Mt. 24 likely points to 70 A.D.,'

Ray: 'Absolutely impossible as noted in my post on page 7. No Scripture documents the actual Fall of Jerusalem in 70 A.D. Jesus spoke of it in the future tense from His time on earth.'

Jude said, 'and -probably- also the end of time. I don't rule out, at all, some kind of 'end time' horror, with an antichrist of some kind. But I do believe, from a biblical perspective, that the 'Great Ordeal' and the 'Last Days' are the past 2,000 years.'

Ray: 'Please, stay with the Biblical Greek words, Great Tribulation, lest you stray even in a worse way. I am glad that you are including an antichrist at the end of the age.'

Jude said, 'I do find the following statement of Jesus to be one of the most interesting
He ever made...

Mt.24. 34 "I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away
until all these things have happened."

Ray is saying, 'First you said you think the Great Tribulation and end time events started in about 70 A.D. But, notice Jesus spoke of ' . . . this generation not passing until all these things are fulfilled.'

Ray: 'The Great Tribulation is yet future after the coming of Christ for His church. [I Thess. 4:17] So the order is Rapture, Great Tribulation of seven years, and then the Lord returns in His Second Coming.

Great Tribulation [Matthew 24:21 & 29] Then Jesus says, 'Immediately after the Great Tribulation the sun will be darkened . . . ' In verse 30 Jesus comes in His Second Coming to destroy the enemies of Almighty God.' [Revelation 19:11 to the end of the chapter.]

Jude said, 'What does 'generation' mean?'

Ray: 'The Great Tribulation will be seven years; so through this passage of time until the Second Coming of Christ, it will take less than one generation of time. My best estimate is that from the time of the Rapture through the Great Tribulation and through the Second Coming of Christ back to Olivet, [Zechariah 14:4 & Acts 1:11-12] will be less than ten years. {There is your generation problem answered} In these two above passages we have a perfect match of a dual prophecy future to our time. No one seems to respond that history does not yet record these events; and I know why. Because you gentlemen have no answers to offer us. Thus, the problem with the Preterist attempt at interpreting Scripture.'

Jude said, 'Was Jesus wrong?'

Ray: 'Jesus has made end times events very clear; He never makes mistakes.'

Jude said, 'as C.S. Lewis seemed to suggest, BTW)'

Ray: Dr. C.S. Lewis forte was not in the area of eschatology. Study Drs. J. Dwight Pentecost, Thomas Ice and Timothy Demy.

Dr. Ice is the executive director of the Pre-Trib Research Center in Washington, D.C. He holds an advanced degree from Dallas Theological Seminary and a Ph.D. from Tyndale Theological Seminary.

Dr. Demy received his Th.M. and Th.D. in Historical Theology from Dallas Seminary. He has served as a Navy chaplain for many years and is presently assigned in Washington, D.C. {they may by now have changed their ministries}

Regards . . . .

 

Here is some interesting things i posted elsewhere:

The earthquake at the 7th Seventh Bowl is
much more severe than the earlier one
at the 6th Seal. It takes 1,000 to 10,000
times as much energy to flatten
a mountain as to move it over a bit.
It takes 1,000 to 10,000 times
as much energy to cause an island to
disappear under the water as it does
to move it over a bit.

Sixth Seal Earthquake:
Revelation 6:12-14 (HCSB):

Then I saw Him open the sixth seal.
A violent earthquake occurred;
the sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair;
the entire moon became like blood;
13 the stars of heaven fell to the earth as
a fig tree drops its unripe figs when shaken by a high wind;
14 the sky separated like a scroll being rolled up;
and every mountain and island was moved from its place.


Seventh Bowl Earthquake:
Revelation 16:17-21 (HCSB):

Then the seventh poured out his bowl into the air,
and a loud voice came out of the sanctuary,
from the throne, saying, "It is done!"
18 There were lightnings, rumblings, and thunders.
And a severe earthquake occurred like no other
since man has been on the earth -- so great was the quake.
19 The great city split into three parts,
and the cities of the nations fell.
Babylon the Great was remembered in God's presence;
He gave her the cup filled with the wine of His fierce anger.
20 Every island fled, and the mountains disappeared.
21 Enormous hailstones, each weighing about 100 pounds,
fell from heaven on the people, and they blasphemed God
for the plague of hail because that plague was extremely severe.

 

Ed Edwards,

You said, 'Here is some interesting things i posted elsewhere:

The earthquake at the 7th Seventh Bowl is
much more severe than the earlier one
at the 6th Seal. It takes 1,000 to 10,000
times as much energy to flatten
a mountain as to move it over a bit.
It takes 1,000 to 10,000 times
as much energy to cause an island to
disappear under the water as it does
to move it over a bit.

Sixth Seal Earthquake:
Revelation 6:12-14 (HCSB):

Then I saw Him open the sixth seal.
A violent earthquake occurred;
the sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair;
the entire moon became like blood;
13 the stars of heaven fell to the earth as
a fig tree drops its unripe figs when shaken by a high wind;
14 the sky separated like a scroll being rolled up;
and every mountain and island was moved from its place.

Ray: I read a little more from vss. 14-17. The Apostle John notes that the opening of this sixth Seal Judgment was yet future to his life-span. He says in verse seventeen, ' . . . and who shall be able to stand? This is clearly an event that is future from the time of his vision. Do Preterists have any idea of the condition of the earth after stars crash into our planet?'

You said,
Seventh Bowl Earthquake:
Revelation 16:17-21 (HCSB):

Then the seventh poured out his bowl into the air,
and a loud voice came out of the sanctuary,
from the throne, saying, "It is done!"
18 There were lightnings, rumblings, and thunders.
And a severe earthquake occurred like no other
since man has been on the earth -- so great was the quake.
19 The great city split into three parts,
and the cities of the nations fell.
Babylon the Great was remembered in God's presence;
He gave her the cup filled with the wine of His fierce anger.
20 Every island fled, and the mountains disappeared.
21 Enormous hailstones, each weighing about 100 pounds,
fell from heaven on the people, and they blasphemed God
for the plague of hail because that plague was extremely severe.

Ray: 'We have had earthquakes in diverse place throughout history, as Jesus promised in Matthew 24:7. And He says these events are only 'the beginning of sorrows.' We are experiencing some of this in our day. But, as you know, look at your Revelation passage in verse 19 where John says that this earthquake during these future Great Tribulation will destroy all the cities of the world's nations. This means every country in our world. This future demonstration of the Lord's wrath will be nearly unthinkable to human beings. I too, long ago looked up the weight of a 'talent' and in the margin of my Bible I wrote the weight to be 75 and 1/2 pounds.'

Thank the Lord that we will not have to endure even these two mentioned judgments that you have elevated for our reflection.'

Best wishes . . .

 

The unanimous verdict of the early church is NOT that the book of Revelation was written during the reign of Domitian! A rudimentary understanding of early church history would reveal that. There are MANY early church writers who posit its compostion during the reign of Nero. (Please read "Before Jerusalem Fell" by Kenneth Gentry for an abundance of information on this). Even John gives us several clues to its date of composition.

First, the presence of only seven churches in Asia. There was more than seven churches until a violent earthquake struck around 62-64 AD, upon which two or three were destroyed. After what was rebuilt it came to a total of exactly seven. (Read the "Seven Churches of Asia" by Sir William Ramsey for further information on this). So at the time that many MODERN day scholars insist(95-96AD) there were MANY more churches than seven in Asia.

Second, there is bold evidence of a persecution on some of these churches by Jewish powers, which would hardly have been possible to have been undertaken in the mid-90's AD, because the Jews would have been incapable of such acts after the fall of Jerusalem(read Josephus) because they were nearly annihilated or taken into captivity by the Roman armies in 70AD.

Next, in Revelation 11:1, John SAW the Temple and was told to go and measure it, hardly possible AFTER 70AD, because there would have been no Temple left standing to even consider! You might believe that John just remembered it in his mind. Well that would be a ridiculous argument too!

Finally, the angel told John:

"This calls for a mind with wisdom. The seven heads are seven hills on which the woman sits. They are also seven kings. Five have fallen, one is, the otherhas not yet come; but when he does come, he must remain for a little while"(Rev.17:9,10).

Remember you need wisdom for this one, but you do not have to be a King Solomon to figure this one out! "Five" kings have already fallen. The one who "is" was the sixth king, who could be none other than Nero Caesar. So, at the time that John saw these visions and penned them Nero was still on the throne. Nero committed suicide around 68AD. Many chose not to include Julius Caesar in their count of kings, even though this would be against many writers and historians, namely Josephus. But no matter where you logically start your count of kings from, arriving at Domition would break even the laws of gravity!

I am sorry to deter from the main topic, but when I see such erroneous statements as these made, I am compelled to rebut them.

 

Satan was NEVER able to thwart the plan of God. God may not have been reaching out everyone in the OT, but this was apart of the grand plan He was working out; not Satan's "thwarting" it. What Satan does is deceive people, and this he still does, so I see no change in Satan's status. Christ's work accomplished the next and most important phase of God's plan, assuring satan's defeat, so it could be spoken of as if he were already removed. But we still await the final phase of God's plan: Christ's return.

 

Eschatologist: "Next, in Revelation 11:1, John SAW the Temple and was told
to go and measure it, hardly possible AFTER 70AD, because there would have
been no Temple left standing to even consider! You might believe that John
just remembered it in his mind. Well that would be a ridiculous argument too!"

Quite the contrary. The reason, the only reason, to measure the
temple is to plan the rebuilding of the temple. One is NOT measuring
an existing temple, one is measuring to build a temple. When Rev 11:1
was written temple mound had already been destroyed in 70AD. This
supports a 96AD writing of Revelation.

Revelation 11:1-2 (HCSB):

Then I was given a measuring reed like a rod, with these words:
"Go and measure God's sanctuary and the altar, and count those
who worship there. 2 But exclude the courtyard outside the
sanctuary. Don't measure it, because it is given to the nations,
and they will trample the holy city for 42 months.

Please also note that the "exclude the courtyard outside" meaning NOT
to measure it, has a present day application (isn't it interesting how
John saw stuff that didn't exist until almost 600 years after
his time ??? ). The Dome of the Rock, it could continue to exist
in the outer courtyard with a temple in place.

 

The mark of a false teacher is that he does not refute the other view but merely chews on his own tripe that he has wrongly learned, and then regurgitates the error for others to consume.

eschatologist: The unanimous verdict of the early church is NOT that the book of Revelation was written during the reign of Domitian! A rudimentary understanding of early church history would reveal that. There are MANY early church writers who posit its compostion during the reign of Nero.

I think one of the good doctors of the church was saying, in my former post, that under Nero's reign he killed and crucified people on Crosses, but did not exile his detractors. One of the characteristics of Domitian was that he exiled people to distant places. Thus we find John the Apostle exiled to Patmos. Non-christian, liberal theologians often date Revelation much earlier than 95 A.D.'

eschatologist: (Please read "Before Jerusalem Fell" by Kenneth Gentry for an abundance of information on this). Even John gives us several clues to its date of composition.

First, the presence of only seven churches in Asia. There was more than
seven churches until a violent earthquake struck around 62-64 AD, upon
which two or three were destroyed. After what was rebuilt it came to a total
of exactly seven. (Read the "Seven Churches of Asia" by Sir William Ramsey
for further information on this). So at the time that many MODERN day
scholars insist(95-96AD) there were MANY more churches than seven in
Asia.'

Ray: What's your point? John records seven and if there were thirty churches it would not make any difference in eschatology. These churches were not mega-churches as we sometimes see in our day.

eschatologist:

'Second, there is bold evidence of a persecution on some of these churches
by Jewish powers, which would hardly have been possible to have been
undertaken in the mid-90's AD, because the Jews would have been incapable
of such acts after the fall of Jerusalem (read Josephus) because they were
nearly annihilated or taken into captivity by the Roman armies in 70AD.'

Ray: We all know about the Israelites fleeing from Jerusalem, but you seem to willingly ignore that the Romans were the enemies of the church who persecuted her also.'

eschatologist:

'Next, in Revelation 11:1, John SAW the Temple and was told to go and
measure it, hardly possible AFTER 70AD, because there would have been no
Temple left standing to even consider! You might believe that John just
remembered it in his mind. Well that would be a ridiculous argument too!

Ray: 'Not so. Have you forgot the truth that the Apostle John was having a vision [Revelation 9:17] of things to come? He was not measuring a physical Temple in or around 70 A.D. There would be no purpose in measuring the Temple that would be destroyed 37 years after Christ's ascension into Heaven. Why measure something that was going to be destroyed by Titus? I makes infinitesimal sense. In John's vision he was measuring the future Great Tribulation Temple in Revelation 11:1-2. He only gives two brief verses in dealing with this measuring of the Temple.'

eschatologist says, 'Finally, the angel told John:

"This calls for a mind with wisdom. The seven heads are seven hills on which
the woman sits. They are also seven kings. Five have fallen, one is, the
otherhas not yet come; but when he does come, he must remain for a little
while"(Rev.17:9,10).

Remember you need wisdom for this one, but you do not have to be a King
Solomon to figure this one out! "Five" kings have already fallen. The one
who "is" was the sixth king, who could be none other than Nero Caesar. So,
at the time that John saw these visions and penned them Nero was still on
the throne. Nero committed suicide around 68AD. Many chose not to include
Julius Caesar in their count of kings, even though this would be against many
writers and historians, namely Josephus. But no matter where you logically
start your count of kings from, arriving at Domition would break even the
laws of gravity!

Ray: Count those Roman kings; as if it makes a difference.

eschatologist: 'I am sorry to deter from the main topic, but when I see such erroneous
statements as these made, I am compelled to rebut them.'

Ray: You have not even tried to refute those big fish in the fish bowl, like J. Dwight Pentecost, Ice, Scofield, Walvoord, Randall Price, Charles C. Ryrie, and Paul Enns who are all doctors of Christian theology.

Please, give this your best shot at explaining what I am saying here. Why did not any historian either secular or religious record events like the Great Tribulation, the gathering of the church into Heaven, all of the judgments as in the Seal, Trumpet and Vial Judgments on the world or the Battle of Armageddon? [Revelation 16:16] Even former President Ronald Wilson Reagan was more insightful than some of you brethren. He, at times, spoke of this future battle of all battles, as you probably recall.'

The reason why historians never jotted down the events above is because they are all yet future to our time of living.

 

Rev. 6.1 I watched as the Lamb opened the first of the seven seals. Then I heard one of the four living creatures say in a voice like thunder, “Come!” 2 I looked, and there before me was a white horse! Its rider held a bow, and he was given a crown, and he rode out as a conqueror bent on conquest.

"Conquest" has been a part of human history since 33 A.D. (and always, frankly)

Rev. 6.3 When the Lamb opened the second seal, I heard the second living creature say, “Come!” 4 Then another horse came out, a fiery red one. Its rider was given power to take peace from the earth and to make men slay each other. To him was given a large sword.

War too, has been with us since the Rev. to St John!!!

Rev. 6.5 When the Lamb opened the third seal, I heard the third living creature say, “Come!” I looked, and there before me was a black horse! Its rider was holding a pair of scales in his hand. 6 Then I heard what sounded like a voice among the four living creatures, saying, “A quart of wheat for a day’s wages, and three quarts of barley for a day’s wages, and do not damage the oil and the wine!”

Famine, pestilence, economic hardship. All here for 2,000 years.

Rev. 6.7 When the Lamb opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth living creature say, “Come!” 8 I looked, and there before me was a pale horse! Its rider was named Death, and Hades was following close behind him. They were given power over a fourth of the earth to kill by sword, famine and plague, and by the wild beasts of the earth.

Death has been around since Adam...

Rev. 6.9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. 10 They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?” 11 Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and brothers who were to be killed as they had been was completed.

Yes, the Saints in heaven are asking, "Lord, how much longer?" And then, in Chapter 6, St John sees that the End, the 2nd Coming, the Judgement of God is now to begin...

Rev. 6.12 I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red, 13 and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as late figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind. 14 The sky receded like a scroll, rolling up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place.

They are terrified of Judgement.

Rev. 6.15 Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and every slave and every free man hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains. 16 They called to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17 For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand?”

These are all 'symbols' (such as Ezekiel's valley of dry bones or St Peter's view of a sheet coming down from heaven) which are not 'real'. The 'symbols' were not 'real', but not are to be taken literally in what they represent.

Revelation is not written chronologically. It is a series of pictures/visions all saying the same thing.

And look how this order matches Mt. 24!
Mt. 25 has many 'warnings' regarding the End--and the Trumpets serve the same function.

Jesus, in Mt. 24/25, NEVER talks about a Millenial Kingdom (with a battle with Satan 'unbound' at the end of the "1,000 years".), or a secret rapture....interestingly, all the 'trumpets' of Revelation simply aren't in Mt 24 either. Hmmm...I wonder if perhaps they aren't LITERAL symbols???