RE: Contemporary Christian Music....

I couldn't disagree more.

While there is some CCM that is sickeningly "pie-in-the-sky-when-I-die", (of course, no less so than a great deal of Southern Gospel) the music of Rich Mullins, Wes King, Randy Stonehill, Bruce Carroll, Charlie Peacock, Jimmy Abegg, Julie Miller, Margaret Becker, Mark Gershmehl & WhiteHeart ("Don't Wait For the Movie" notwithstanding), isn't shallow at all.

It's well thought out and thought provoking to the listener.

Rich Mullins and Wes King have always provided a great deal of scripture references in their liner notes and in some cases, simply comparing the scripture references to the lyrics themselves can be productive as Bible study.

Really? All CCM? The only example I'm aware of is Carman.

Could you please elaborate?

The are a good deal of CCM songs that deal with salvation and many CCM'ers give invitations or invite the pastor of the church to give invitations at their concerts.

I remember being asked to counsel people who had come forward at a Mylon and Broken Heart concert to recieve Christ and being completely overwhelmed by the huge numbers of people.

Again, many CCM'ers have very well thought out and beautiful lyrics.

Again, please provide an example of the false doctrine.

I agree, but then, I've never heard a CCM proponent say that.

While I, personally, don't listen to CCM, other than a few of the afformentioned artists, I'm glad He gave Christians an alternative and that He gave the artists themselves an arena in which to serve Him.

Mike

[ April 14, 2003, 08:50 PM: Message edited by: Mike McK ]

 

It looks like we dogpiled poor JonathanDT, about the "Christ was a rebel" statement. Let's back off just a little and consider that he made the statement in good faith.

 

I wasn't sure if I should respond to the rebel thing, I don't want to go OT, but since three posts have mentioned it, I'll try to make a short reply.
First, I'll have to research this some more. However, without any in depth research, here's why I think what I think.

1. Aaron, I have a hard time believing that the verse you mentioned is condemning ALL rebellion, I think it's specifically talking about rebellion against God. I say this because of the many times that God raised up leaders in the Judges to rebel against the governing nation of the time and to free Israel.

2. re·bel Pronunciation Key (r-bl)
intr.v. re·belled, re·bel·ling, re·bels
To refuse allegiance to and oppose by force an established government or ruling authority.
To resist or defy an authority or a generally accepted convention.
I think that the second definition fits Jesus, as he defied the generally accepted convention of the Pharisees legalistic rule. The Pharisees themselves obviously saw him as a rebel, they tried stoning him at one point, and as you well know eventually had him hung on a tree. While Jesus told his followers to submit to their rule, he himself overthrew them by dying on the cross.

Those are my initial impressions, however I said this merits more study on my part. Thanks!

God Bless,

~JD

 

I didn't mdean you, specifically.

By and large, people who knock rock and CCM are into Southern gospel.

Take the folks on i-love-jesus.com.

They come out and say that they will not allow any disussion of rock or CCM (except to bash it, of course) and one of their moderators, bennieboy (who I think has changed his name to brother ben), follows southern gospel groups with almost cult-like fascination.

In fact, I was banned from the board for daring to demonstrate that his favorite SG groups used the very same studio musicians as Hank Williams, Jr, Jimmy Buffett, Shania Twain, Garth Brooks and a variety of rock and pop/country artists.

As much as I love his music, I don't like "Awsome God" (but for different reasons than you don't like it).

Why do you think it was disrespectful?

I don't know what you mean by that.

I've always found his music to be pleasant acoustic pop and his lyrical content to be scripturally based and well thought out.

I don't know if I can for a couple of reasons.

One is that, with only a few exceptions, CCM is entertainment, not ministry, and, as such, is sort of "Christianity-lite".

They subjects they sing about are very tame and not anything controversial that we would disagree with.

I know that, in both my time as a charismatic and working in the production end of Christian music, I've found that it appeals to people fo a wide variety of non-essential ideologies.

If, by "liberal", you and I are thinking of the same people, they tend not to listen to CCM, anyway. However, in very extreme cases, they have changed the words to some of the great hymns of the faith to suit their political ideology.

I'm not the only one. If you go to crosswalk.com, you'll see that, while he does have his supporters there, he takes quite a bit of heat for his faulty doctrine, his admiration of false teachers such as William Branham and other things.

Personally, I believe Carman is what would hapen if Wayne Newtion and Benny Hinn had a baby.

FF, that's not CCM. This is what is commonly called "worship choruses", which I don't like for a variety of reasons (none of them doctrine, I think).

Jack Hayford is a biblically orthodox teacher but is heading out of bounds rather quickly.

In the case of "Majesty", though, I think you're reading something in to it that's not there.

I was saying that I've never heard anyone say that CCM is the only way to reach people, only a valid way.

Nope, never have.

The artists I've worked with have, to the best of my knowledge, been very respectful of the old hymns.

One of Starsongs top selling albums was a various artists compilation of the top CCM artists of the late eighties and early ninties singing hymns.

Julie Miller (when she was doing Christian music), Bruce Carrol, Wayne Watson, Jerome Olds, Jacob's Trouble and many other artists have included hymns on their albums.

Thank you. I hope I'm not cynical about it by now.

Believe me, I've been on every concievable side of this issue and have had nearly fourteen years as a Christian to sort this out.

When I was a young Christian, I was one of those people the Bible talks about being "blown to and fro by every wind of doctrine".

When I first became a Christian, I had this crazy notion that I had to get rid of all of my albums.

Fortunately, I was in a place where I didn't have room for my albums and my sister was holding on to them for me.

Having been through the same thing in the mid-late seventies, she refused to let me throw them out.

Looking back, I glad.

I bought all the books, Jim and Steve Peters, Fletcher A. Brothers, Bob Larson, David Wilkerson, etc.

I was caught up in such a fervor that I didn't even bother to see if they had their facts straight and, sure enough, they didn't.

I finally noticed that they would say things about artists I listened to that I knew weren't true and I always thought it was funny that their books were aimed at kids but talked about artists that no kid in my school would be caught dead listening to and artists that no one who was a teenager in the mid-late eighties would have heard of.

There was a lot of CCM in those days that I listened to and that God used greatly to minister to me and to help me grow.

Then, I backslid for a while and it was the Christian music that God used to convict me.

Today, with the exception of just a few artists, I don't listen to Christian music at all, just mainstream.

I find that there's a lot of mainstream music that God also uses. All mainstream music isn't good and some of it is downright awful and not conducive to growing in Christ, but there is plenty of good music out there, if you're willing to use discernmment.

There's actually a lot more to that story, but I haven't had my coffee yet.

Honestly, I don't know enough about them to comment. Even though I can't stand that kind of music, the very few things I've heard about them seem to be good.

Mike

[Just cleaned up edited portions of Fiery's Post that survived in your quotes. Aaron ]

[ September 26, 2002, 10:00 PM: Message edited by: Aaron ]

 

Fiery,

Are you there? Hello?

 

CCM is not a new thing. Think of it this way. Now a days kids and people out there listen to music that is satanic. If people find CCM enjoyable then that's something that takes them away from the examples of "poP music". I know, myself, I had one friend become a Christian because she was introduced into my church through a song taht she really liked. I couldn't get her to come to church, or anything, and one day when I was listening to "Avalon", the song "Adonai" she really liked it. The next Sunday she was at my church without me even knowing she was coming. Three and half months later she asked Christ into her heart. CCM is a different beat of music and frankly, I belive everything and anything has a purpose that God has planned for it. It's not for one to judge...God created CCM on this earth for some reason. Some people believe it is the demon coming out in a different way, but then why would so many people look at it as a positive and Christian look? It's not like AC/DC. I think we all need to look at what Christ-like means, and not judge.

 

Yeah...and?

If your attitude there was anything like your attitude here, I'd bet that you were being disciplined for more than just reading the Bible.

Perfectly within a PD's right to do.

Sounds like that was your job. What's the problem?

From the way you described your run in with the management, it sounds as though the Bible was being read.

I take it you don't listen to much Southern Gospel music.

So, when David and the Apostle Paul spoke of how much they looked forward to Heaven, were they equally as sick?

Luke 6:23 tells us to "rejoice in that day and leap for joy".

Luke 15:7 tells us that "great joy shall be in Heaven"

There are several OT passages that tell us that the Lord rejoices and "rejoice" carries with it the idea of celebration.

Not by Earthly standards, but the Bible does tell us that there is a celebratory atmosphere there.

Just visiting to clean up an edited portion of the previous post that survived in a quote here.

[ April 14, 2003, 08:55 PM: Message edited by: Mike McK ]

 

Just wondering what the thoughts are about CREED?

 

They are not a Christian group, but a secular band. From what I know (I used to listen to them) the lead singer is "searching" when it comes to God. I would not promote them or recommend them to anyone.

 

I'm far from an expert on Creed, but they don't fly under the banner of CCM. The subject of Creed, IMO, should be discussed in a seperate thread.

 

I like Lifehouse

 

What is the purpose of music for the Christian? Music, as is anything given to man by God, is to glorify and honor God above all else. Means by which this is accomplished are many: evangelization, edification, exhortation, etc.

This many times creates in us a feeling of accomlishment, satisfaction, happiness, joy. But our feelings are not what qualifies or disqualifies good Christian music. It's what that music in and of itself does. Does it glorify God? Does the message AND the music mirror the Word of God?

I'm not going to attack or support any particular artist. One song doesn't make him good or bad. Judge each song for what it is from a BIBLICAL standpoint. Don't call it a bad song because this guy sings it, and this song good because this lady sings it. If we were to judge Mozart's or Beethoven's music for the composer, we'd throw it all out the window.

One thing I will warn you about...stay away from what is classified as "Christian Rock!" There really is no such thing! Music of the Devil cannot go hand-in-hand with Godly lyrics. Interestingly enough, the only persons who claim that music, without the lyrics, is amoral (neither good nor bad), are
Christians who want to justify their listening to "Christian Rock."

Rock artists, producers, and even satanists will admit that it is the music apart from the words that most effectively teaches their philosophy. Here is a URL address for you to take a look at. It is a satanist's view of "Christian Rock."

http://www.geocities.com/athens/9708/CROCK.TXT

Always, as with every aspect of the Christian life, base your decisions, preferences, standards, convictions, and life patterns on the Word of God, and you won't have difficulty "choosing" the right kind of music.

Sincerely,

Christian Lindsey

 

CHRISTIAN METAL: A SATANIST'S POINT OF VIEW
BY DANIEL JOHNSON

Why? I find the music of Randy Stonehill, bruce Carroll, Steve Camp, Buddy and Julie Miller, Margaret Becker, Ashley Cleveland, Mark Heard, Charlie Peacock, Wes King, Michael Card and many others to be very well thought out and Biblicallu sound.

Why must we "admit that Christian rock and metal are ridiculous and have little merit"?

By whom? Wouldn't this depend on individual tastes? Who has examined "all metal"?

So?

If the music is "ridiculous and of little merit" then why would you worry about it's message influencing your daughter towards Christianity?

I listen to hard rock bands before I skate onto the ice. So what?

Actually, it's not. It's derived from a combination of jump blues, hillbilly, and gospel, but don't let me stop you.

I take it you don't listen to much Christian music.

If it lacks "rythm" then why is it sinful, as it's supposed to be the "rthym" that stirs up the flesh?

By whom? By that logic, most of the great hymns of Christendom are sinful.

Not in and of themselves, but only by those who choose to place those meanings on them.

What voodoo roots?

Who?

What do you base this on? What do you base any contemporary music being used to summon evil spirits with?

I'm not sure I understand how these are "Christian messages". Please explain.

*snip*

What do you base this on?

How do you know that the sign their showing isn't the ASL sign for love? How do you know that they're not Texas football fans? How do you know they're not signaling "Two outs" to the outfield?

You see this sign a lot but your average concert goer has no more clue what it means than can make sense out of this guy's rambling essay.

This sign is no more indicative of Satanism than somebody wearing a cross around their neck is a Christian.

Really? Which song?

OK, Mr Johnson, it's time for your medication.

[ November 16, 2002, 08:22 AM: Message edited by: Aaron ]

 

Why is it that we're not supposed to listen to "the Devil's music", but it's OK to accept "Satanist's", which I really don't believe this guy is, advice on the music we should listen to?

Mike

[ April 09, 2003, 02:40 PM: Message edited by: Mike McK ]

 

Excellence in music glorifies God, whatever the style.

The message should mirror a Christian world view. The music itself should strive for excellence.

Um, what's wrong with Beethoven?

Oh...

If the devil owned music, that would be true....

Not really... I'm not trying to justify anything. I don't really care for most Christian rock and don't listen to it very often.

Really??? Music can certainly stir the soul, but the response to the music is from within. If you sin while listening to music, it is because *you* wanted to do it. The music did not make you or motive you.

Three thoughts:

1.) The "satanist" needs to learn to spell and type.
2.) I really doubt that this person is a "satanist"
3.) If he truly is a satanist, why should I believe a word he says? If he is the enemy of God, why would I believe that he would tell the truth about something in the Christian community? If anything, the fact that he speaks against Christian rock is probably the best endorsement of Christian rock that you could get.

True. I'll listen to Christian rock, "secular" rock, bluegrass, folk, classical, blues, country, rhythm and blues, hip hop, praise and worship, Contemporary Christian, alternative rock, standards, and pop music.

I will not sin if I choose my music carefully.

 

Christian A. Lindsey said:

I'm not going to attack or support any particular artist.

No, you're just going to lob a cluster bomb and get them all with one shot.

One thing I will warn you about...stay away from what is classified as "Christian Rock!" There really is no such thing! Music of the Devil cannot go hand-in-hand with Godly lyrics.

That rock music, per se, is "Music of the Devil" is your unsupported assumption, nothing more.

Your link brought me to: "CHRISTIAN METAL: A SATANIST'S POINT OF VIEW." So it's come to this: going to Satanists to tell us what Christians ought to do. In straining out the gnat of "worldly" music, its critics have swallowed the camel of worldly thought. Rom. 12:1-2 would seem to apply.

[ November 15, 2002, 10:36 AM: Message edited by: Ransom ]

 

Clarification,

Any encyclopedia article on rock music will say that rock music has its roots in African music. Dig a little deeper and you will find that African rhythms are all about Voodoo.

There is no dispute on that fact all. The dispute is whether those rhythms can transfer to Christian music. Until recently, the resounding answer of the church was no.

 

I maintain that this belief had more to do with racial bigotry than with any sort of spiritual insight. Until recently, the resounding answer of the church was to keep people of African descent out of "white" churches. I did a little reading on the subject a number of years ago, and one memorable opinion was that it was okay for black people to enjoy music with strong percussion in worship because they need to "work out their pent-up emotions." For lots of white people "reverence" involves becoming as unemotional as possible, instead of submitting everything (mind, emotions, the will) to God.