What Was the "Sin" of Sodom?

Hi Don. Thank you for your comments.

You said; Latterrain is quite set in his mind about whether homosexuality is a sin or not.

Not at all. It is my position, and I have consistently stated, that the only Biblically permissible sexuality occurs in the marriage bed (Heb. 13: 4).

You said; You see, his logic is that since the law didn't exist yet, the abomination is not abomination. But since the law didn't exist yet, then obviously the sins were not sins, even though he/she admits they were sins.

I can't take credit for the logic. It's logic from the Bible (Rom. 5: 13).

You said; There are many, many things God listed for us in the Bible as abomination. One of those things is man lying with man as he would a woman.

Sodom was a populated nation with sons (Gen. 19: 4) and daughters (Eze. 16: 48) indicating that rampant heterosexuality was practiced. You cannot have sons and daughters by means of homosexuality. This is a biological fact and is irrefutable. Thanks! latterrain77

 

I need to reiterate here.

It's clear that neither latterrain nor I are espousing anything othat that one specific point: The only biblical form of sexual expression is within the marriage bed. So those who are implying otherwise should follow the biblical guideline on not spreasing gossip and rumor. Shame on you!!!!

It's unfortunate, however, that when people attempt to discuss something that is so biblically clear (Sodom and Gomorrha's destruction was not due to homosexual behavior), people are so set in their ways, they'd rather falsely accuse their Christian brethren and grandstand rather than look up the story for themselves and discuss the points.

Or, could it be that some are so pridefully arrogant that they'd rather blame God's wrath on homosexuals instead of the pridefully arrogant??

 

OK, I'm provoked.

I beg to differ.

Jude is written concerning a certain class of people who have "crept in unawares" defined in verse 4 and then makes some comparisons, one of them being the destruction of the citizens of Sodom and Gomorrha.

Jude 1
4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

These in actuality are denying the Lord by turning the grace of God into lasciviousness:

766 lasciviousness : aselgeia {as-elg'-i-a}
• 1) unbridled lust, excess, licentiousness, lasciviousness, wantonness, outrageousness, shamelessness, insolence

Yes pride, yes arrogance and insolence but yes also unbridled lust and licentiousness.

Let me repeat, the citizens of Sodom were given over to "porneia" in an all-out way because Jude uses the word "exporneuo".

"porneia" includes homosexuality but is not limited to it.

4202 porneia {por-ni'-ah}
• 1) illicit sexual intercourse 1a) adultery, fornication, homosexuality, lesbianism, intercourse with animals etc. 1b) sexual intercourse with close relatives; Lev. 18

Second time around: The Canaanite religion(s) included the practice of every perversion known to man including but not limited to homosexuality.

True, the society was not exclusively homosexual but anything-and-everything sexual.
They had no preference, this is why Jude uses the word "ekporneuo" They were given over to "porneuo" as a way of life.

Genesis 19
5 And they called unto Lot, and said unto him, Where are the men which came in to thee this night? bring them out unto us, that we may know them.
6 And Lot went out at the door unto them, and shut the door after him,
7 And said, I pray you, brethren, do not so wickedly.
8 Behold now, I have two daughters which have not known man; let me, I pray you, bring them out unto you, and do ye to them as is good in your eyes: only unto these men do nothing; for therefore came they under the shadow of my roof.

The Lord sent the angels down to see the iniquity of Sodom and here the angels had proof positive with the desire of the citizens of Sodom..

Genesis 19
15 And when the morning arose, then the angels hastened Lot, saying, Arise, take thy wife, and thy two daughters, which are here; lest thou be consumed in the iniquity of the city.
16 And while he lingered, the men laid hold upon his hand, and upon the hand of his wife, and upon the hand of his two daughters; the LORD being merciful unto him: and they brought him forth, and set him without the city.

Jude reminds the reader that there was a mixed multitude which came out of Egypt and He destroyed them who came along for the ride but did not believe.

5 I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.

Angels also
6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

Sodom and Gomorrha are set forth as an example. An example of what and for what?

For practicing the lasciviousness of verse Jude 1:4 they suffered the vengeance of eternal fire.

766 lasciviousness : aselgeia {as-elg'-i-a}
• 1) unbridled lust, excess, licentiousness, lasciviousness, wantonness, outrageousness, shamelessness, insolence

Yes pride, yes arrogance and insolence but yes also unbridled lust and licentiousness.

Nothing has changed:

We are not condemned for our sin.
We are condemned when our sin is revealed and we hate the revelation and still love our sin.

John 3
19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

I've said my piece again. I'm done again (unless re-provoked).

HankD

[ May 19, 2003, 10:41 PM: Message edited by: HankD ]

 

Indeed.

HankD

 

Jude is written concerning a certain class of people who have "crept in unawares" defined in verse and then makes some comparisons, one of them being the destruction of the citizens of Sodom and Gomorrha...For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

The excerpt from Jude, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, is not saying that they ingaged in lasciviousness. It says they turned the grace of God into lasciviousness. He's saying, intoday's speak, that they perverted the grace of God. There's nothing about homosexuality in that verse.

Yes pride, yes arrogance and insolence but yes also unbridled lust and licentiousness. No disagreement here about the sins in Sodom. However, there were several cities in the area that were, shall we say, sexually loose. But only S & G were destroyed, not the other cities. Note what Jude says: Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner. Yet, the cities in like manner were not destroyed. Hence, Jude is not a commentary of why S & G were destroyed, but who S & G and the like cities were "unaware".

Sodom and Gomorrha are set forth as an example... [in] Jude 1:4 they suffered the vengeance of eternal fire.
No, Jude 1:4 says that THOSE WHO PRACTICE FORNICATION will suffer vengeance like S & G. It DOES NOT say that fornication was the cause of their destruction. You're completely misreading Jude 1:4.

Ezekiel is clear as to why Sodom was destroyed: Behold, this was the iniquity of thy sister Sodom, pride, fulness of bread, and abundance of idleness was in her and in her daughters, neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy.

When I started the topic it was because some seemed to downplay sodomy/homosexual actions. Don't think anyone commends or condones them (and still believe Romans 1). Just the opposite. Some seem to insert it, and, in some cases, attempt to assert that homosexual fornication was the sole cause of the destruction of S & G. It's clear by reading the story that it was not.

But it allowed us to see both sides of the issue about homosexuality, from perspectives clearly not in mainline Baptist belief.
I see nothing in the Baptist distinctives or biblical dictrine that require a belief that S & G were destroyed for fornication.

 

Hank is right, indeed.

All it did was get me riled up.

 

Here we go again, subjected to the tortuous reasoning and spurrious arguments of illegitimate pseudo-scholars who claim a superior knowledge and understanding of Greek and Hebrew over that of the hundreds of credentialed scholars that have given us the modern translations that we enjoy today.


Did I hear someone mention the sin of arrogance and pride?


Russ <><

 

Hi Russ (new man). You said; Here we go again, subjected to the tortuous reasoning and spurrious arguments of illegitimate pseudo-scholars who claim a superior knowledge and understanding of Greek and Hebrew over that of the hundreds of credentialed scholars that have given us the modern translations that we enjoy today.

Are you displeased with the LORD's educational credentials? (John 7: 15). Thanks! latterrain77

And the Jews marvelled, saying, How knoweth this man letters, having never learned? (John 7: 15 KJV)

The Jews were amazed and asked, "How did this man get such learning without having studied?" (John 7: 15 NIV)

The Jews then were astonished, saying, "How has this man become learned, having never been educated?" (John 7: 15 NASB)

 

Did I hear someone mention the sin of arrogance and pride?

Can it be? Is this the same person who said on the board that use of pharmeceutical drugs is witchcraft?? If I remember correctly, you went back to the original language of the Bible to "prove" your point. But now, you're using version text rather than go to the original language of the Bible (in regards to the hebrew phrase "to know"), if even to simply say "I see your point, but I disagree with it". That would have at least been consistent.

 

You memory has not served you well. I never said all pharmaceutical drugs = witchcraft. What I said was that any mind altering drug, including many pharmaceuticals such as Prozac™ and Ritalin™, meet the biblical definition of witchcraft. I think another would be RU-486™, the abortion pill. There are a number of legitimate scholars and christian physicians who agree with that statement. It is also interesting to note that while hanging on the cross, Jesus was offered "wine mingled with myhrr," (a narcotic pain reliever) and He refused it. John Ankerberg says:

He makes no distinction between illicits and pharmaceuticals.

Dismayed at all the school shootings? Almost all of the kids accused of those shootings were on some form of SSRI drug like Prozac™.

The Bible is virtually silent regarding drug use. It speaks loudly and unambiguously on the topic of homosexual behavior however, including the narrative on Sodom. I am not aware that my comments on mind altering pharmaceuticals are in conflict with any biblical teaching. Please feel free to point out any scriptures that you feel conflict with my statements. Furthermore, I did not use my argument in an attempt to distort or disprove any biblical precept, account of events, or plain teaching of scripture.



Link

Russ <><

[ May 23, 2003, 09:58 AM: Message edited by: new man ]

 

Hmm ... mind altering? With all due respect, I must disagree with you on this. Some of these folk seem unable to function without it.

You and I can be thankful not to have the same need as they. Still, I cannot condemn their pursuit for a better quality of life. This is with understanding that the drug is not abused.

A different ball game. Abortion does not have God's approval.
PJ

[ May 23, 2003, 01:26 PM: Message edited by: PJ ]

 

And going off on a tangent, I'm not sure that Prozac and/or Ritalin = "better quality of life"....

 

I'm not sure either, but I doubt these folk would indulge unless they felt it totally necessary. I have, however, observed favorable results.
PJ

 

The most important question has yet to be answered: How did you get that little "tm" symbol to appear?? I gotta know, I gotta I gotta!!

 

Not at all, however:

The symbol is included in the Windows XP "character map." You select the character you want and then copy and paste it into your document. I believe Windows XP will also copy symbols such as ™ from other documents as well.

Russ <><