Easy Believism

Dear Scott,

For the most part I agree with your response.

Except…

Well that is exactly it, you have to redefine the term to get to the real issue.
If Easy believism "specifically involves" something other than exactly what the term means in the raw definition of the two plain words - belief being easy, then perhaps it should be specifically called what the misnomer "easy-believism" alludes to in the manner in which you have defined it : "phony-believism".

I repeat, I just don't like the term "easy-believism" because believing is "easy" for me.
Is it has never been difficult for me to believe in Jesus Christ, I have never had to struggled with it.
It is second-nature to me.
On the other hand, I have struggled with the crucifixion of my flesh.
And I don't think I am different than any other child of God.

So, I repeat, to me there is something flawed about the term "easy-believism".
It doesn't fit the problem (as you defined it) "the unregenerate going through the motions of conversion" because you see there is no "believism" on their part easy or otherwise.

It is semantics: "phony-believism" or using the KJV word "feigned-believism" is to me a better phrase and less confusing all around.

This confusion is born out here in this thread in the attempts at the definition of "not-easy-believism".
If "easy-believism" does not define true belief in Christ what does one call this true belief? "difficult-believism"?

The part of the Salvation of the Lord that is often difficult to endure is the reproval or conviction of sin.
When He (the Spirit) is done with this revelation of sin and the door of faith is opened, how sweet and easy it is to enter! A latter difficulty is His personal revelation of our flesh nature which needs to be mortified.

The term "Easy-believism" (imo) just doesn't provide enough focus or distinction as to what is difficult and what is easy in the conversion of the sinner.

So Scott, to sum up, I agree with your redefinition of "easy-believism" the real problem, "phony-believism", the pretenders, the tares among the wheat who will be with us as He said until the end of the age.

Zechariah 14:21… and in that day there shall be no more the Canaanite in the house of the LORD of hosts.

HankD

 

Hank, I didn't make up the term. And while it might be a misnomer, I know from observation what it entails. I know of a church that claimed to have 14K people saved one year... but only had a membership of about 800 with attendance, not counting the large children's bus ministry they ran, of 300-600.

Certainly some out of that 14K were truly saved and will be sanctified by the Holy Spirit unto good works. On the other hand, 100's if not 1000's of them now think they are assured of heaven who are as lost as they were before they uttered that scripted prayer.

One of the ways this is perpetrated is by asking if someone wants to go to heaven. Who doesn't? But the failure comes in when they either brush over or completely ignore the implications and gravity of repentance and saving faith.

 

Thankful, this is a great verse and one that I was going to put forth.

What does Paul say about salvation? One must believe in your heart that God has raised from the dead the LORD Jesus.

People must turn to the Lord. How exactly is it turning to the Lord if a person merely mentally subscribes to the fact that he has risen from the dead? This is a critical point. The very fact that people must turn to the Lord, is because they are presently at cross-purposes with him. They need to stop what they are doing and embrace Christ the Lord (not just savior as some would say).

Example: say a person is living in adultery. He does a historical study of Christ and concludes that he is indeed God. He never leaves his adultery. In fact, he loves it.

Someone approaches him and tells him that he shouldn't live that way. The adulteror needs to turn to Jesus and embrace him as savior. The adulteror says he already knows he is God and that Christ died for his sins and raised on the third day.

Easy believism advocate = EBA
Man in adultery = MIA

What does the easy-believism person say now?

EBA - Um, the Bible says you need to stop doing that.

MIA - Why? I am already saved and can't lose my salvation.

EBA - How do you know you are saved?

MIA - I believe Jesus is God and that he died for my sins and rose again, like I already told you. Now, have a nice day.

EBA - ?????

 

Daniel David,

Here let me fill in the ???? for you as to what the EBA person would say at the end here.

"If you continue in your adultery and you are truly one of his God will chasten you. You cannot sin with impunity against God. Sometimes God will even take you home early if you do not acknowledge your sin and turn from it.

You will not be able to serve in a church or be a member of a church. The quality of your Christian life will be zero.

I will pray for you that you will leave this sinful lifestyle."

Hope that helps with your question Daniel.

IFBReformer

 

I understand Hank's frustration here.

I know of a man who knocked on a door, and three children answered. He asked if their parents were home, and the children responded that mom was at the store. He proceeded to talk with the children, asking them about the Bible, and if they knew who Jesus was. It was obvious to the observer(s) that the children were answering his questions with a great measure of guardedness, as if they simply wanted him to go away and leave them alone. He proceeded to lead them in the sinner's prayer, which they dutifully repeated after him, after which he proudly told them they were saved. They said thank you, and closed the door. He then thumped his Bible, proclaimed "Hallelujah!" and asked the observer(s) what they thought of that.

THAT is what "easy believism" has come to be known as. It should be known as "it's easy to be a child of God"; but somehow some of us have gotten into this thought train of "quantity instead of quality."

If we would focus on the quality--God's Word itself--instead of the quantity, then we'd be more fixated on actually making sure people see what God's Word says, that people know what God's Word says, that people KNOW GOD, instead of this thing that has become "repeat after me...."

Hank, I agree with you. But the above story is what "easy believism" has come to mean to me, and why I choose focus on "Do you have a relationship with God?"

 

Dear Don,

And I can understand the frustration of Scott and others concerning the mixed multitude.

I am similarly frustrated with the term "Lordship Salvation" which seems to be the solution to so-called "easy-believism".
Personally I have never wanted it any other way than for Jesus Christ to be my Lord, my God and my Savior and even those terms seem inadequate.

Problem:
But I have never lived up to it on my part.
I have done more crash and burns than I wish to remember. To often this Lordship salvation comes across as what is commonly called "sinless perfection" I realize now from the BB that this is not so, but if one says to a carnal babe "If Christ is not Lord of all, He is not Lord at all!" with no other explanation, then the little one (spiritually) may fall into a despair if he/she is struggling to overcome fleshy desires and give up.

Yes, as Scott reminded me, there is a danger of lawlessness in the camp as well as the offending these little ones (which also has a desparate consequence).

Judges 12
5 And the Gileadites took the passages of Jordan before the Ephraimites: and it was so, that when those Ephraimites which were escaped said, Let me go over; that the men of Gilead said unto him, Art thou an Ephraimite? If he said, Nay;
6 Then said they unto him, Say now Shibboleth: and he said Sibboleth: for he could not frame to pronounce it right. Then they took him, and slew him at the passages of Jordan: and there fell at that time of the Ephraimites forty and two thousand.

So, I think the solution is to avoid these confusing doctrinal shortcuts and shibboleths which bewilder babes and carnal Christians, not even understanding why they are being condemned. But to pray for wisdom and gifts from above to nurture the flock, present sound doctrine and grant space for spiritual growth.
And to deal with individuals.

I think we are to quick to hack away at the flock.


HankD

 

Is Lordship salvation derive or based in an orthodox religion or is it prevelant among all ?.

I simply see this as another form of legalism.
at best elitism.

I also dont equate the term "easy believism" with the results that the proponents of lordship salvation followers use.

why dont they change it to:
"too bad that you dont know enough at initial new-birth-ism"

lordship salvation (imo) gives one the image of being or becoming judgemental of self and others when a "so-called" believer fails to meet the standards perscribed completely and immediately..

ie..Lack of mercy

 

Thats correct, neither do I except to say it is another masonic type catch-phrase (shibboleth) which if used will prove to others that we are of the Lordship Salvation camp ("difficult-believism") as opposed to the "easy-believers" camp.

My opinion of course.

HankD

 

I see lordship salvation as somewhat misleading.

everyone is expected to accept Jesus as lord. and can be believed in a positional base. yet not experientially proven.

some never prove it by upsurping the progression of the sanctification process making the term incorrect also. (lord,Lord) thus not making the definition experientially real (or true) to the believer.

so absolute titles are nice when you have 20/20 "hindsight".

and then theres that real-time judging others before proven effect.

slaughtering the flock...

 

Can you provide a scriptural example to prove this? Is there a NT case where someone accepted Christ as Savior without a change in behavior, a true conversion from the old man to the new? Even the thief on the cross used some of his last few breathes to testify and exalt Christ.

How do you dispense with the scriptures that tell us that Christians will be fruitful and will be conformed to Christ?

Can you maybe rephrase this? I am having a hard time following you.

There may be abuses as there are with any teaching but the object isn't to judge others in the sense that you imply. Christians are supposed to be discerning. We are given numerous standards by which to judge true believers as opposed to pretenders... one of which is love for the brethren.

If someone makes a profession of faith and never changes in a discernable way rejecting all efforts to be discipled then it is not unfair for Christians to compare them to the standard set forth in scripture.

It is not "loving" toward the "flock" to let them think everything is OK when they have never genuinely been saved. There is also no need to pick a single person out and say because you have/haven't done this, that, or the other then Christ isn't Lord therefore you are not saved. A saved person who hears the exhortation to make Christ Lord will want to do it even if it doesn't come to immediate fruition... the desire will be there.

 

First..the object of anything of God is for it to be given by christ..

such as "fruit" from the tree of life.
as it is with any rule or standard set within the parameters of our new spirit.

the difference is how we receieve the fruit or rule.

we "take" it from christ, or he "gives" it.

here man is "taking" authority of overseeing other men's beliefs and works. and "taking" reponsibility of micromanaging Gods message by "adding" to it.

by adding to it, is expecting men to understand when they have no proof, no need or no comprehension of what is necessary in salvation, towards needing a God or even a "Savior"..and even beyond that, needing a lord.. man must learn what his spirit is by Gods methods, standards and timing.

after they receive the FREE gift of the Spirit.

in todays religions..we might have plurific circulation of Religious messages but God selects who and when each individual is initially save. when they receive new spirits and when to draw them to himself.
and when he does..it is without education.

we learn what happens later.

rom 11:29 for the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

and how can we be drawn to God if we dont poccess his spirit within us.

we do nothing on our part, but receive.
we dont not even understand...

think to yourself..if you repent and ask.

isnt that adding to? prompting? even tempting?

by the time your asking...your already "saved".

any asking or repentance is merely..
a response on your part to an overwhealming invitation..

which could have been years in the making!

and comprehending of lordship
is far down the road of education..
after some trials and tribulations....

does lordship salvation have within it..
the doctrine of the law killing our flesh?
lets see..we call that sanctification..

because until the law does indeed kill our flesh
our old man still thinks its alive and on its throne.

until we die to our flesh, we are our own lord and IN NEED OF NTHER.

and that doesnt occur upon initial salvation...
for some, it takes years.

Lordship salvation is a misnomer until proven.
one person at a time....

 

One's theology dictates what they do and why they do it.

Even if you say that repentance is just a change of mind about who Christ is, that still implies a need to change the rest of you. Christ is the Lord. He died to crush sin. He is holy and "without holiness, none shall see the Lord". How does only changing your mind mesh with the person and work of Christ? You still need to change your lifestyle.

Classic example:

A man and woman are living together. They both get saved at the same time. They must repent of their sin and either separate or be married (whichever would address why they are living together). If such never happened, they never truly embraced Christ. Their own personal lord is sex (or whatever warped sense of "love" they have for each other). They are still in a form of idolatry.

Paul address the Thessalonian believers as those who TURNED FROM IDOLS TO THE LIVING GOD.

That is Lordship salvation. It does not guarantee that people are perfect or will live perfectly. It is saying that saving faith will cherish Christ above EVERYTHING else. So no sin competes with Christ as the master or lord.

You cannot serve two masters (this is a theological truth that transcends the application of money and God).

Btw, it is a theological debate whether a person has one or two natures at the new birth. That should not color your interpretation of what kind of faith actually saves a person.

Finally, IFB and others, the means-of-salvation view (IMHBAO) addresses and removes all of the judging and criticism that the Lordship controversy creates. Please study the position before you cast it off.