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Day of Atonement

Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by wopik, Oct 11, 2003.

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  1. wopik

    wopik New Member

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    Just wanted to see what others thought about this case for Christians keeping the Day of Atonement - Yom Kippur.
    (The actual ceremony for this day is described, in detail, in Leviticus 16.)
    ------

    The whole context of Hebrews 8, 9,10 is the ceremony of the Day of Atonement and all of the symbolism of it (Lev. 16). And right in the middle of this, it says, “Christ was offered to bear the sins of many” (Hebrews 9:28).

    In Heb. 10:11, "Every priest stands daily ministering an offering often times the same sacrifices," which can never take sins away. One should understand that the priest is in the Temple, working like mad, killing animals and sprinkling blood (Leviticus 16). Hebrews says it can't take away sins. But this man can, that is Jesus Christ, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins forever! Jesus’ sacrifice for sins took place one time - forever! And that's all.

    "Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the Holiest by the blood of Jesus." --- It's a clear reference to the Day of Atonement, the high priest going into the holiest place. --- "By a new and living way which he has consecrated for us through the veil, that is to say, through his flesh. And having a High Priest over the house of God let us draw near with a true heart and full assurance of faith, having our hearts isprinkled from an evil conscience our bodies washed with pure water " (Hebrews 10:19-22).

    Do we realize all this sprinkling and all this washing are all allusions to the ceremonies of the Day of Atonement? The priest had to wash his whole body about ten times. The fit man, who carried the goat out into the wilderness and let him go out there, had to come back, take off his clothes, wash his flesh in pure water. So there was washing and sprinkling and he (the writer of Hebrews) is still using all the allusions of the Day of Atonement.

    (Heb. 10:23-25) "Let’s hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised;) And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works, not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together…."
    Paul doesn't say "it's the Day of Atonement," but the entire context of three chapters (Hebrews 8,9,10) is the Day of Atonement and the High Priesthood of Jesus Christ.

    Why then would anyone assume that we are allowed to forsake the assembling of ourselves together on the Day of Atonement? Why, if Jesus' disciples were to fast any time, why not on the Day of Atonement? For the whole day is about Jesus Christ and His work, and His sacrifice for us. Of all people in the world who would want to keep the Day of Atonement, Christians ought to. Paul says (Hebrews 10: 25), "don't forsake the assembling of ourselves together as the manner of some is, but exhort one another, so much the more as you see the day approaching.”

    In Hebrews 8, 9, and 10, it's plain that Jesus becomes sin; He bears our sins; He takes them all upon Himself and He suffers; He is humiliated; He is betrayed; and He dies and He sheds His blood for our sins. He takes His blood; presents it to the Father, and makes intercession for us, and for us - makes atonement.
     
    #1 wopik, Oct 11, 2003
  2. Paul of Eugene

    Paul of Eugene New Member

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    We could do that - we could honor Christ on the day of atonement, there's nothing stopping us - but of course we wouldn't have an animal sacrifice! Maybe the best way would be to observe the Lord's Supper. But in OUR covenant relationship we are not tied to the old covenant holiday scheme.
     
    #2 Paul of Eugene, Oct 12, 2003
  3. wopik

    wopik New Member

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    His death does not mean we stop celebrating the Feast and Holy days! By no means! I believe it actually Glorifies God/Yahweh. The only thing His death took away was the sacrifice for atonement. We still should observe the holy day as a Sabbath, and a day of fasting and prayer and confession. The laws are still in place, except the Sacrificial laws--He was the final Lamb. Should spend the day thanking God for the Gift of his Son as our Lamb of lambs.
     
    #3 wopik, Oct 13, 2003
  4. Ben W

    Ben W Active Member
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    What I find interesting to note is that often Christians are not keen on being part of the feasts in the Old Testament, yet will happily join in with Christmas, Easter and even Halloween.

    I found one christian group online that seems to keep the feasts, they are called the Church of the Great God.

    http://www.cgg.org/index.cfm/page/welcome.htm
     
    #4 Ben W, Oct 13, 2003
  5. Artimaeus

    Artimaeus Active Member

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    He took away a little more than that. We can learn a lot about God from the Old Covenant and learn a lot about ourselves, but we cannot learn how we are to conduct ourselves in wroship by imitating how they were told to behave in worship. These things were meant to bring us to Christ and once we have been brought to Him we no longer need them. Do you keep the training wheels on once you learn to ride a bike?

    Heb 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. 7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. 8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: 9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord. 10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: 11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. 12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more. 13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away
     
    #5 Artimaeus, Oct 13, 2003
  6. wopik

    wopik New Member

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    Artimaeus --

    The OT laws are hardly irrelevant to the Christian community.

    In talking about how those who receive the gospel message should help support those who preach it, Paul says, "For it is written in the law of Moses, 'You shall not muzzle the mouth of the ox that treads out the corn. Does God take care for oxen? Or says he it altogether for our sakes? For our sakes, no doubt, this is written:.....' " (1 Corinthians 9:8-10).

    Paul just got done quoting the law of Moses from Deuteronomy 25:4, and said this was written for our sakes - we NT Christians, in the 21st century.
     
    #6 wopik, Oct 18, 2003
  7. Tim

    Tim New Member

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    Notice the way Paul uses the O.T. Law in your example, in PRINCIPLE! Not in specific adherence to the Mosaic code.

    So the O.T. Law applies to us today--in principle. We also use the greater revelation of the N.T. to understand how it's types and shadows were fulfilled in Christ (including the Sabbath and all feast days). We have entered into rest from an obligation to the works of the O.T. Law.

    As Paul says in Gal. 3:2,3,"Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Are ye so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?"

    In Christ (not Moses),

    Tim
     
    #7 Tim, Oct 18, 2003
  8. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob Administrator
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    Observing rosh hashanah, yom kippur or succoth in the past few weeks is a part of my heritage. Like US citizens celebrating 4th of July, Columbus Day and Thanksgiving. In our heritage and identity.

    Would not ask anyone who does not feel the OT festivals is their heritage to join in. But they are for our "example" and there is a lot to understand and learn.

    And it ALL POINTS TO JESUS! Praise His Name.

    Remember, though, Christianity is Jewish!
     
    #8 Dr. Bob, Oct 18, 2003
  9. David Mark

    David Mark New Member

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    We have been grafted in, haven't we?

    [​IMG]
     
    #9 David Mark, Oct 19, 2003
  10. Tim

    Tim New Member

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    Dr. Bob,

    I appreciate your excusing gentiles from keeping the Jewish feasts (if only all Messianic believers were so generous), but I don't see a correlation between American "holidays" and Jewish holidays. Israel was a theocracy under the Old Covenant. Keeping those feasts (IMHO) is a perpetuation of the Old Covenant that undermines the complete suficiency of Christ.

    Christianity has Jewish roots--yes. But to say it IS Jewish is starting to sound like Judaizing--a problem which is resurfacing in a big way today.

    In Christ,

    Tim

    P.S. Gal. 4:9-12--" But now, after you have known God, or rather are known of God, how do you turn again to the weak and beggarly elements, desiring to be in bondage to them again? You observe days, and months, and times, and years. I am afraid for you, lest I have laboured in vain on your behalf."
     
    #10 Tim, Oct 20, 2003
  11. wopik

    wopik New Member

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    Dr. Bob ---
    I'm surprised to hear a Christian say that. Most Christians don't know that the 'holidays of the Bible' are all about Christ. Why are the pulpits silent on that subject?

    Paul even told the Christians in Corinth that "Jesus is our Passover, therefore, let us keep the feast" (1Cor. 5:7-9).

    And why would the seventh day Sabbath be done away with? It's the eternal 4th Commandment, not some whimsical law that's here today and gone tomorrow. If the 4th Commandment is "jewish" then so is the first and the tenth.
     
    #11 wopik, Oct 22, 2003
  12. Tim

    Tim New Member

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    Wopik,

    The fact that the feasts are all about Jesus is the reason we don't need to keep them anymore (see Gal. 4:9-11)--Christ is the fulfillment of them!

    Your quote of 1 Cor.5:7,8 is incomplete. The rest of verse 8 makes it clear that Paul is speaking figuratively.

    Finally, there's no whimsy in the replacement of the Mosaic Law with a better one (Christ's)--but rather a divine stamp of approval. Many scriptures point to this, including Eph.2:14,15 and Col. 2:14. That's why Paul follows up with the end of Jewish Sabbath requirements in Col. 2:16,17.

    Christ fulfilled the Sabbath once and for all, giving us lasting rest from the Law (what Heb. 4 elaborates upon.)

    In Christ,

    Tim
     
    #12 Tim, Oct 22, 2003
  13. wopik

    wopik New Member

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    Tim --

    The fact that the feasts are all about Jesus is the reason we don't need to keep them anymore (see Gal. 4:9-11)--Christ is the fulfillment of them!

    Gal. 4:9-11 "Formerly, when you did not know God..." This could never be said of the Jews, especially in Paul's day. They kept God's holidays and weekly Sabbath.

    Paul, here, is speaking to gentile Christians. These people never knew the real God. Acts 14:6-17 describes these people as worshipers of the gods Mercury and Jupiter. And in Galatians 4, Paul tells them not to return to their former ways, now that they know the real God.

    --------

    In Colossians 2:16, Paul is telling these people not to let others judge them or condemn them for eating or drinking or for KEEPING the holy days, new moons and Sabbath. There is not one word here that says the holy days and Sabbath are done away with. Just the opposite! This is rock-solid evidence that the early Christians DID keep the Sabbath and holidays of the Bible.

    If this verse is suppose to do away with the Sabbath and 'holidays of the Bible', then it also has to do away with "eating and drinking"! Let's hope that's not the case.

    God's holy Ten Commandments would never be considered as "weak and beggarly elements".
     
    #13 wopik, Oct 23, 2003
  14. Tim

    Tim New Member

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    Certainly the Law IS weak and beggarly, for it could only condemn--it could never give life.

    As Paul said in 2 Cor. 3:6,"... God has made us able ministers of the new testament, not of the letter [Law], but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life."

    Farther down in that passage (v. 11) , Paul refers back to the Law, saying it is "done away", being replaced by that which is more glorious.

    In Christ,

    Tim
     
    #14 Tim, Oct 23, 2003
  15. wopik

    wopik New Member

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    Tim --

    Certainly the Law IS weak and beggarly, for it could only condemn--it could never give life.

    The law could never give life; that never was its purpose. The laws are a lamp unto our feet and a light unto our path, so we can see in the dark (Psalms 119): the laws of God show us the right way to live a life.

    Paul does say there was never a law given that could give life, not in Old or New Testament times (Galatians 3:21).

    --------

    As Paul said in 2 Cor. 3:6,"... God has made us able ministers of the new testament, not of the letter [Law], but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life."

    Farther down in that passage (v. 11) , Paul refers back to the Law, saying it is "done away", being replaced by that which is more glorious.

    What helps me understand this is Hebrews 8:8-11, where Paul is quoting Jeremiah 31:31, in which the old covenant - which was written in stone - is done away and the new covenant - which is written in our hearts - has replaced the old. The only difference between the old and new covenants, according to these passages, is where the laws of God are written.

    The laws in the old covenant were written externally - on stone tablets.

    Those same laws in the new covenant are written internally - in our hearts and minds.
    "I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts...." (Heb. 8:10).

    Again, this is just the way I understand certain concepts of Paul's.
     
    #15 wopik, Oct 23, 2003
  16. Tim

    Tim New Member

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    Wopik,

    I would say there are many more differences than just the same laws written externally or internally. Christ said that all the Law "hangs upon" the 2 Love commandments. Thus they are greater than the 10. The 2 commandments are the Law of Christ--applied by the Spirit to our hearts.

    In the Sermon on the Mount, Christ showed Himself to be a greater lawgiver than Moses. And He did not come to destroy the Law, but to fulfill it, i.e. bring it to completion in Himsef by His complete obedience--once and for all satisfying its demands.

    In Christ,

    Tim
     
    #16 Tim, Oct 25, 2003
  17. wopik

    wopik New Member

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    Tim --

    the 2 Love commandments:

    1. You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and soul...

    2. You shall love your neighbor as yourself.

    "On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets" (Matt. 22:37-40).


    Most people have a wrong impression of God's Laws, and laws in general. God's Laws are not handcuffs and shackles. God's Laws are more like a flashlight to help us see in the dark, so we don't stumble and fall.

    -------

    Are we not to follow Jesus' steps, follow the example of a man "who did no sin" (1 Peter 2:21-22)?

    I always wondered whether Christians would want to do away with God's Laws if the 4th Commandment wasn't there. That Sabbath Commandment condemns us most loudly. Afterall, "whosoever shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them....." (Sermon on the Mount)

    respectfully ---
     
    #17 wopik, Oct 26, 2003
  18. David Mark

    David Mark New Member

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    Spoken like a true believer!

    Love never fails!

    Dave [​IMG]
     
    #18 David Mark, Oct 27, 2003
  19. wopik

    wopik New Member

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    Tim --

    Christ said that all the Law "hangs upon" the 2 Love commandments. Thus they are greater than the 10.

    My understanding is that the 2 Love commandments are 'the 10' --

    The first 4 Commandments show us how to love God.
    The last 6 show us how to love and get along with our fellow man.

    respectfully ---
     
    #19 wopik, Oct 27, 2003
  20. Tim

    Tim New Member

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    Wopik,

    Much of the N.T. speaks of the insufficiency of the O.T. Law, it's power only to condemn us. Many passges speak of its passing, being nailed to the cross, etc. Unless you are separating the Law into pieces--then what part of the Law was done away with--the least parts?

    Paul says that one in debt to the Law must keep all the Law. So how do we keep it all?

    Answer:

    In Christ (He kept it all for us),

    Tim
     
    #20 Tim, Oct 27, 2003
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