The Apostasy

Rapture is like the firstfruits of the harvest. A harvest is performed in stages, with the final ingathering at the end.

 

Amen, Brother James_Newman -- Preach it!

reminds me of something i wrote earlier:

Five Resurrections
Found in the Holy Bible
Compared and Contrasted

The Lord God is a resurrecting God.

Definitions:

New Testament: God's contract on goy
Old Testament: God's contract on Yisrael
Resurrection: a person who was dead is alive
Saint: a person on God's list (AKA: Book of Life)
Tribulation: AKA: The Time of Jacob's Trouble (Jeremiah 30:4-7);
Yisarel passing under the rod (Ezekiel 20:34-3;
Melting Pot (Ezekiel 22:19-22);
Time of Trouble (Daniel 12:1); etc.
Resurrection: a person who was dead is alive
goy - Yisraeli term for gentiles (probably slightly derogotory)
Yisrael - Transliteration of the Hebrew term for "Israel" into English.

How to get on God's list:

Romans 10:9 (KJV): That if thou
shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt
believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from
the dead, thou shalt be saved.


1. Resurrection of Jesus
WHO: Jesus
WHEN: 33AD
WHERE: Jerusalem
WHY: The Lord God is a resurrecting God.
HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
WHAT: Raised to Life Eternal; because of the
resurrection of Jesus, all the other resurrections
are possible
References: Matthew 28:6, Mark 16:6, Luke 24:6-8


2. Resurrection of some Old Testament Saints
WHO: Some of those who died before Jesus believeing God, especially
those who believed in God's Messiah
WHEN: 33AD
WHERE: mostly in Jerusalem
WHY: The Lord God is a resurrecting God.
HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
WHAT: Raised to Life Eternal

3. Resurrection of the New Testament Saints
WHO: Church age (AKA: times of the Gentiles) Saints; balance
of the Old Testament Saints
WHEN: Some date after 26 May 2004;
at the end of the Church Age; at the beginning of
the Tribulation
WHERE: Worldwide
WHY: The Lord God is a resurrecting God.
HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
WHAT: Raised to Life Eternal;
this resurrection is followed in but a
moment by the translation of the living
saints into a glorified heavenly body like
that of Jesus
References: 1 Corinthians 15:52, 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17

4. Resurrection of the Tribulation Saints
WHO: Those beheaded for faith in Jesus; those
who reject the Mark of the Beast
WHEN: at the end of the Tribulation; at the
beginning of the 1,000-year reign of Jesus
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: The Lord God is a resurrecting God.
HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
WHAT: Raised to Life Eternal
References: Revelation 20:4-6,

5. Resurrection of the non-Saints
WHO: All those throughout time who have rejected Jesus
WHEN: At the close of the 1,000-year reign of Jesus;
at the beginning of eternity
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: i don't know, God does
HOW: i don't know, God does
WHAT: Raised to eternal shame & damnation
References: Revelation 20:12-15

NOTE: The delineation of the five revealed
resurrections above
does not preclude other resurrections. The Lord God
is a resurrecting God and His hand is not shortened
by his revelation to us or
by our understaning of His revelation to us.
For example: Two Witnesses shall
be resurrected in the middle of the Tribulation.

There is a pastoral picture of the four resurrections
for which the resurrection of Jesus was a precusor
(numbered here as above):

2. The First Fruits (Matthew 27:22-53)

3. The Harvest (1 Corinthians 15:51-54, 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17)

4. The Gleanings (Revelation 7:14, 20:4)

5. The Tares (Matthew 13:28-30)

Sometimes the Holy Bible calls resurrections 2-4, the resurrections
of the just: The First Resurrection (because all the
resurrections of the just preceede the resurrection
of the unjust).

The following scriptures seem to imply a simultaneous
resurrection of the just and the wicked dead:
Daniel 12:2, John 5:28-29 (all resurrected
in the same hour), Acts 24:15. Revelation 20-4-6
cleary notes that the just are raised one day
(a 1,000 year long day) before the unjust.

CAUTION: The numbering scheme 1 to 5 above was arbitrarliy
assigned to enable the discussion. There is nothing
sacred or Biblical about this numbering scheme.

May Jesus our Savior and our Master be Praised!

Note that ressurrections #2 and #3 are accompanied
by a rapture of living saints.

--compilation by ed, incurable Jesus Phreaque

 

Carlaimpinge: "He's the man of sin, the SON OF PERDITION,
who is REVEALED, after the working of Satan.
MIDST OF THE WEEK, not at the BEGINNING. Context bud."

I read it the Greek term translated "revealed" has a
high element of FIRST TIME. The context is saying
the man of sin is revealed for the first time.
This is the beginning of the week, not the middle.

2 Thessalonians 2:3 (Great Bible)

Let no man deceave you by eny meanes,
for the Lorde shall not come
excepte there come a departynge fyrst,
and that synful man be opened,
the sonne of perdicyon ...

The departing is the rapture.
The revealing of the son of perdition
is the opening revelation of the one who will be
the antichrist.

 

Carlaimpinge: //Your "riot act" is about as applicable
to Christian practice as "naked mudwrestling".//

Thank you for your concession of the debate.
It was nice shadow boxing with you.
Maybe someday you will even learn the difference between what
God says in the Holy Bible and what you think Jesus said
in the Holy Bible.

In the Bible Version/Translation Forum i've asked over 140
people a question (with other alternatives answers)
not a one has yet replied to this #7:

What does Bible Inerrancy mean to you?
7 the Bible is inerrant as applied by _______ (post person or group) 0% (0)

Inerrancy does NOT apply to our application
of the scripture. To believe/act so is major sin error.
Sorry, but God gave me the thankless task of bringing
His message to renegade Christians.

1 John 1:9 (HCSB):
If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous
to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

 

The Apostasy is a mistranslation in some versions
in 2 Thessalonians 2:3. This has been shown already.

Also misunderstood in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 is the frequent
term "revealed".

2 Thessalonians 2:3 (Tyndale):"
Let noo man deceave you by any meanes,
for the Lorde commeth not,
except ther come a departinge fyrst,
and that synfull man be opened,
the sonne of perdician ...

After the departing of the saints from this earth
at the pretribulation rapture/resurrection,
the synfull man, sonne of perdician (probably the
antichrist) will be opened and known, probably via
the renewal of the covenent protecting Israel.

 

The Apostasy is a mistranslation in some versions
in 2 Thessalonians 2:3. This has been shown already.

Also misunderstood in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 is the frequent
term "revealed".

2 Thessalonians 2:3 (Tyndale):"
Let noo man deceave you by any meanes,
for the Lorde commeth not,
except ther come a departinge fyrst,
and that synfull man be opened,
the sonne of perdician ...

After the departing of the saints from this earth
at the pretribulation rapture/resurrection,
the synfull man, sonne of perdician (probably the
antichrist) will be opened and known, probably via
the renewal of the covenent protecting Israel.

DeafPosttrib: "Cannot you see the signs of apostasy
are already happening everywhere right now? "

No. I see a lot of unbelief. I see no
more of Christians leaving the faith than the past 19 centuries.

DeafPosttrib: "Dan. 9:24-27 already fulfilled at Calvary"

Not so. The AOD = abomination of desolation, is evil.
To accuse the Christ who overcame Calvary of this
evil is bad. Please reconsider speaking against Christ.

 

And there it is folks! The man just became a GREEK SCHOLAR to "teach" the DOCTRINAL context.

HE ADDED TO THE HOLY BIBLE to teach his deception.

First is not in the text, and first at the BEGINNING of the week, SURE ISN'T.

Private interpretation, bud. THE POINTS OF TIMING IN THE CONTEXT ARE MIDWEEK. No corroboration by ANY VERSE demonstrating BEGINNING OF WEEK.

1.Sitting down in temple
2.Wicked revealed
3.Coming after working of Satan
4.Power, signs, lying wonders
5.Strong delusion due to rejection of truth

(Rev.12-13)

Quote:

I read it the Greek term translated "revealed" has a
high element of FIRST TIME. The context is saying
the man of sin is revealed for the first time.
This is the beginning of the week, not the middle.

2 Thessalonians 2:3 (Great Bible)

Let no man deceave you by eny meanes,
for the Lorde shall not come
excepte there come a departynge fyrst,
and that synful man be opened,
the sonne of perdicyon ...

The departing is the rapture.
The revealing of the son of perdition
is the opening revelation of the one who will be
the antichrist.

Unquote.

Supposition, interjection, and opinion without prooftext. He DISCARDED the context. Note there's NO VERSES behind his statements.

Typical blind guide.

 

Quote:

Thank you for your concession of the debate.
It was nice shadow boxing with you.
Maybe someday you will even learn the difference between what
God says in the Holy Bible and what you think Jesus said
in the Holy Bible.

In the Bible Version/Translation Forum i've asked over 140
people a question (with other alternatives answers)
not a one has yet replied to this #7:

What does Bible Inerrancy mean to you?
7 the Bible is inerrant as applied by _______ (post person or group) 0% (0)

Inerrancy does NOT apply to our application
of the scripture. To believe/act so is major sin error.
Sorry, but God gave me the thankless task of bringing
His message to renegade Christians.

1 John 1:9 (HCSB):
If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous
to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Unquote.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Go to the concession stand and get you some breath mints.

Pitiful. The poor man doesn't even heed or adhere to his "own" advice.

There are over TEN POSTS which this man couldn't respond to biblically, scripturally, OR doctrinally. Read them throughout this thread.

I'm not concerned about what you think. I am interested in what the Holy Bible SAYS.

 

Could i get you to write us an essay
on the prophetic use of the metonymy?

Can i get a copy of your exercise plan
based largly on the areobatic exercise:
jumping to conclusions?

I note that Carl has not debated my points
nor my examples of my points but chants
like a sick goat about not having scriputre.
By contrast, he can't even extend the
common curtesty of noting the versions of
the Bible with each passage quoted.

I went through the 2ed chapter of 2 Thess
(KJV1769) and noted the timing on some phrases:

start of the day:
a falling away
man of sin revealed
6. he might be revealed in his own time
he who letteth will let
8. then shall that wicked be revealed
9. whose coming is after the power of Satan

middle of the day:
4. who opposeth and exalteth himself
above all that is called God
4. so that he as God, sitteth
in the Temple of God, shewing himself
that he is God

End of the day:
8. whom the Lord shall consume with
the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy
with the brightness of His coming

 

Carlaimpinge: //Why you poor silly soul. You can't respond
to the points, much less DEBATE anything. READ the
statement of Paul's which I gave. (2 Thess.2:8-10)//

I don't recall you quoting that scripture.
I don't havetime to look through the topic to see if you did.
So I shall. Please look at HOW i quote it, you can learn
some common courtesy.

2 Thessalonains 8-10 (HCSB):
and then the lawless one will be revealed.
The Lord Jesus will destroy him with the breath of His mouth
and will bring him to nothing with the brightness of His coming.
9 The coming of the lawless one is based on Satan's working,
with all kinds of false miracles, signs, and wonders,
10 and with every unrighteous deception among
those who are perishing. They perish because they
did not accept the love of the truth in order to be saved.

By your rules i'm not allowed to say anything about what this
simply, spiritually, and prophetically means or you will
bleat like a sick sheep that i didn't use scripture.
I expose your hypocracy.

Carlaimpinge: "And there it is folks! The man just became
a GREEK SCHOLAR to "teach" the DOCTRINAL context."

No supporting verse.

Carlaimpinge: "HE ADDED TO THE HOLY BIBLE to teach his deception.

No supporting verse.

Carlaimpinge: "First is not in the text, and first
at the BEGINNING of the week, SURE ISN'T.

No supporting verse.

Carlaimpinge: "Private interpretation, bud. THE POINTS
OF TIMING IN THE CONTEXT ARE MIDWEEK. No corroboration
by ANY VERSE demonstrating BEGINNING OF WEEK.
1.Sitting down in temple
2.Wicked revealed
3.Coming after working of Satan
4.Power, signs, lying wonders
5.Strong delusion due to rejection of truth
(Rev.12-13)

Ah, finally a supporting verse.
Can you please show me specifically where in Revelation
12 and 13 what you contend is shown IN SCRIPUTRE as being
in the middle of the week. Thank you.

Quote:
-----------------------------------------------------
I read it the Greek term translated "revealed" has a
high element of FIRST TIME. The context is saying
the man of sin is revealed for the first time.
This is the beginning of the week, not the middle.

2 Thessalonians 2:3 (Great Bible)
Let no man deceave you by eny meanes,
for the Lorde shall not come
excepte there come a departynge fyrst,
and that synful man be opened,
the sonne of perdicyon ...

The departing is the rapture.
The revealing of the son of perdition
is the opening revelation of the one who will be
the antichrist.
-----------------------------------------------
Unquote.

Carlaimpinge: "Supposition, interjection, and opinion without
prooftext. He DISCARDED the context. Note there's NO VERSES
behind his statements.
Typical blind guide.

No supporting verse is offered.
I hope no reader is buying Carlaimpinge's trick here.
He is NOT doing what he requires of me. He is tilting
the field so he can hopefully overcome his loosing opinion.
What we are doing is each giving our opinion of what we
think the scripture means. Folks will judge (most of them
wisely) which person has the better meaning.\
Nothing is served by bleating about "no scriptute" when we
are in a discussion of what the scripture means.

Carlaimpinge: "I'm not concerned about what you think.
I am interested in what the Holy Bible SAYS."

I'm not interested anymore in what you think.
You haven't figured out the most basic doctrine:

Romans 3:23 (KJV1611);
For all have sinned , and come
short of the glory of God,

All you can type other than scripture is your
opinion. All you hear in sermons other than scripture
is some ones opinion. All you preach other than scripture
is your opinion.

 

James,

Please prove to us, where scripture saying, there will be 'series' or 'stages' of the harvest?

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

Let's compare Ed's warped conclusions with the verses in question.


2 Thess. 2:3-4
"Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day (day of the Lord) will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed , the man doomed to destruction. 4. He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple proclaiming himself to be God ."

Anyone with marginal intellect like me can understand from the above verses that the AC is revealed when he proclaims to be God in the temple

But Ed says he is revealed at the start of the week, yet has the actual act of revealment in the middle of the week.

Of course he's too stubborn to admit error.

 

You should be able to see this DPT, Jesus himself was called the firstfruits of them that sleep. In the OT there are two firstfruits during the feasts and then the final feast of the ingathering. This is just the nature of a harvest.

1Co 15:20
But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

Revelation 14
3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

Jas 1:18
Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

Firstfruits always come before the main harvest.

 

This is the bleating sheep to the silly man, you're all mouth with wind. You have to be. You can't DEAL with the facts.

No 7 year tribulation.
No revealing of the man of sin at the BEGINNING of the week.

Where's your prooftexts? They're NOT in 2 Thess.2.

The day of Christ SHALL NOT COME (in the context) unless two things occur. A falling away AND the revelation of the man of sin. WHEN THEY COME, so will have the day.

The gathering is CONNECTED to his revelation (2 Thess.2:3) which is at the MIDST OF THE WEEK, not his "destruction" which is AFTER THE TRIBULATION.
Time gap. (2 Thess.2:8) He is revealed BEFORE he is destroyed! His revelation is at least 42 months BEFORE his DESTRUCTION. (Rev.13)

His revelation is withheld by a what (the mystery of iniquity) and a who. (he who letteth)

The he who is found in Rev.17,6. It concerns a man who has not yet showed up BEFORE the LAST WORLD RULER is destroyed by the Lord Jesus Christ. (Rev.19)

The what is the mystery of iniquity which CONCERNS the INCARNATION of Satan as a MAN on earth, as the mystery of godliness concerned the INCARNATION of God Almighty on earth as a man. (1 Tim.3, Isaiah 14) Both were given to PAUL.

SATAN COMES TO EARTH AS A MAN IN THE MIDST OF THE WEEK, not at the beginning of Daniel's week to REVEAL the man of sin.

Again, no beginning of the week in 2 Thess.2.

Watch him folks, watch him evade the facts.

 

At the beginning of the last 7 years;
The AC "will confirm a covenant with many for one seven."

He is not the author of the covenant.

He does not alone promote the covenant.

The covenant is not between him and Israel.

He concurs with the "many" or other nations to honor the covenant, he does not act alone.

The "covenant" giving Israel's right to the Land was established by God prior to their confirmation of it.


Now if you would go to Psa. 83, you'll find out who the "many" are.

2. "See how your enemies (Muslim nations, Eze. 38:1-6) are astir, how your foes rear their heads."

3. "With cunning they conspire against your people; they plot against those you cherish." Their plan is to "devise an evil scheme" by establishing a false peace for 7 years so that Israel will become a "peaceful and unsuspecting people - all of them living without walls and without gates and bars" (Eze. 38:10-11).

4. "Come, they say, "let us destroy them as a nation, that the name of Israel be remembered no more." In the middle of the 7 years when Israel is living in safety the AC will dishonor the covenant and invade Israel (Eze.38:14-16).

5. "With one mind they plot together; they form an alliance against you...." Listed are the nations who do the plotting: Edom, Moab, and Ammon (Jordan) and Syria, the descendants of Lot.

 

Add this to the above.

Conspiracies and plotting are done secretly, concealed from the general public. The AC from Syia must remain in the background and not be revealed less the conspiracy be exposed. Does this make sense?

 

The coming of the Lord will not be delayed and is not the issue, before the foundation of the earth God chose a particular day for the rapture that will be fulfilled according to his perfect will.

There seems to be confusion in your post as to the different pre Trib views. The popular view has the rapture as a pre-week, pre-7 year Trib event. My view has the rapture as a mid-week, pre-3.5 year Trib event.

Just how long is the Trib? The popular view is 7 years, I believe it's 3.5 years, the second half of the 7 year covenant. From Dn. 9:27 we know that this 7 years begins with a covenant accepted by many (Muslim) nations and not just between the Antichrist and Israel. Three and half years into this covenant the Antichrist will break it, forcefully putting "an end to sacrifice and offering" on the Temple Mount. At mid point of this covenant the AC assumes control over Jerusalem and begins his reign on earth. The second half of the covenant is the same period of time mentioned in Rev. 13:5 when the AC is given "authority for forty-two months." The first half of the covenant begins with peace and the second half with war initiated by the AC. This pattern of peace first and then war is confirmed by 1 Thess 5:3; "While people are saying 'Peace and safety'(first half), destruction (2nd half)will come on them suddenly , as labor pains on a pregnant woman (Mt. 24:8), and they will not escape."

Take notice that this "destruction" or the day of the Lord comes unexpectedly like a trap (Lk. 21:34-35), there will be no fore warning allowing time to prepare for it. If the rapture were to occur pre-week then people would have 3.5 years to prepare for the destruction in the second half of the 7 years. The rapture has to occur
"suddenly" without warning or immediately before the destruction of that day for it to come unexpectedly "upon all those who live on the face of the whole earth.'

1 Thess. 5:2 has the day of the Lord coming "like a thief in the night " to the unbeliever and not those who are prepared and waiting for the Lord's return (V. 4). I sincerely believe that this night time occurrence of the thief coming right after the rapture applies to America. If it were to occur at night time here, it would certainly trap people unexpectedly in the day of the Lord.

I hope my explanation is clear to you, if not then ask again. </font>[/QUOTE]OK, I'm having to go back through all this stuff over and over again to try to figure out what is being debated here.

1. The last 3½ years of the 'tribulation period' are the 'Great Tribulation'? I don't think you can argue against this.

2. The destruction comes suddenly without warning... ok, that must be true.

So the issue is that if the rapture happens at the beginning of the 'week' and that the destruction comes at the middle of the 'week' you would know when the destruction was coming? What if the rapture doesn't happen at the beginning of the week, but merely before the antichrist is revealed, which is pretty much what you guys are arguing... If the tribulation period were much longer than the seven years that is so commonly supposed these days this would also explain the lack of warning. Just because Jack Van Impe says the tribulation period is 7 years doesn't make it so... There is a lot to account for that would have to be crammed into a seven year period.

 

Non-messianic Jews (Jews who do not accept
Jesus as Messiah) today are looking for
a Messiah who will do three things:

1. bring peace to Yisrael
2. restore the daily sacrifice
3. rebuild the Temple on Temple Mount

So, anybody who can do this will be
accepted as the Jewish Messiah.
I believe the antichrist will do this.
He will reveal himself right after the
pretribulation rapture/resurreciton of
the church age saints. He will re-confirm
a covenent bringing peace ot Yisrael.
Part of that peace will be to allow
immediate restoration of the daily sacrifice
on Temple Mount right North of the
Dome of the Rock. The daily sacrifice can
be done on bare rock until the Temple
Building is built. 3-1/2 years later,
probably at the dedication of the new Temple,
the antichrist will declare himself God.
Then millions of Jews will see it is NOT
the antichrist who is Messiah but that
Jesus (the rejected cornerstone) is the real
Messiah of the Jews. Thus shall all Yisreal
be saved, as God promised.