The rapture

Approved suicide? Consoles the miserable?

How can looking for the imminent return of the Lord Jesus Christ be construed as applying only to those who are miserable???

My life will not be taken from me in the rapture. I will be with Jesus in the air, not six feet under...

§ue (looking for the Uppertaker - not the undertaker)

 

Jbrumley: "first and one are same meaning"

I'm sorry to inform you, Sir, you seem to
have an issue with FACT and OPINION.

You can have your opinion that there is onlly one resurrection
only AFTER the Tribulation period.
You opinion is as good an anybodies, in fact,
better than most. You are welcome to support that
opinion with facts both Biblical and Secular.

When you said, "first and one are same meaning", you
are denying a fact. You can argue against me (opinion versus
opinion) that there is only one group of people mentioned
two times in Revelation 20:4 (I say two groups of people).
You can argue against me (opinion versus
opinion) that the "first resurrection" after the Tribulation
period is THE ONLY RESURRECTION of the just ever
(I say two resurrections of the just, one before and one
after the Tribulation Period).
You cannot arge FIRST = ONE. "First" and "One"
denote two different things.

Yes, they are sort of related.
"First is an ORDINAL nubmer.
"One" is a CARDINAL number.

1. Consider the set of counting numbers {1,2,3,4,5 ...}
The FIRST member of the set is ONE.

2. Consider the set of whole numbers {0,1,2,3,4 ... }
The FIRST member of the set is ZERO.

3. Consider the set of two digit whole numbers {10,11,12 ... 98, 99}
The FIRST member is TEN.

While "FIRST" can sometimes be "ONE" they are not the same definition.

(BTW, later we will discuss "last".
The last member of set 1 does not exist.
The last member of set 2 does not exist.
The last member of set 3 is Niney-nine.)

 

Please define
the "rapture" that you don't believe.

Thank you.

 

Brumley1: "John 6:39 is talking
resurrection in last day"

Amen, Brother Brumley1 -- Preach it!

In Acts 2:17 Peter says the
last days have started. They are
still going on 2004-33 = 1,971 years later.
If "last days" last 1,971 (and still going)
years; why should it surprise anybody that
THE LAST DAY lasts 7-yeras?

So John 6:39 is a pretrib proof-text

Here are some meanings of "day" in English.

1. A period of 24-hours length at one place on the earth.

2. A period of 48-hours that a particular date
(such as 8 March 2004) lasts on all places on earth.
(This "day" is not defined in most dictionaries, but
is real neverthe less. You can sure learn some neat
stuff if you stick with Baptist Board (BB)

3. a period frequently 8-hours in length when one works

4. a period with an average of 12-hours when
the sun is up

5. an unspecified time in the past or future

6. the appropriate time

7. a particular or specified day1 (example: Memorial Day)

I've never seen a Bible prophecy where "day" meant anything
other than "6. the appropriate time".

BTW, hour in prophecy means the appropriate time.
So in God's economy 1 day = 1 hour.
That is alright, God created time.

 

Brumleyj: "John 5:25-29 is talking about day of judgemetn
after following rapture and resurrection at second advent."

The given scripture says nothing of how many resurrections
of the just their might be. Others scriptures list several,
as denoted in my post above. Certainly nothing in these
verses preclude a multiple resurreciton

Here is a correct statement:
"John 5:25-29 is talking about
a day ofjudgement for the unjust after a
ressurrect after (closely after most posties say.
closely enough to be "at") the Second Advent
of Jesus.

 

Please define
the "rapture" that you don't believe.

Thank you. </font>[/QUOTE]Pre-trib rapture isn't Biblical.

Looking forward to a "rapture" is has so far been a waste of time for the last 2000 years. So why start now. There is not enough proof yet that these are anymore the end times than 1945, 1235, or 100 AD.

So far, billions and billions of people have died the traditional way. What are your odds of being in that few, and what is the difference even if you are?

Since ANY type of rapture happens at the end of time right before the final judgement, what is so special about it. The fact that we go to be with the lord is all that really matters. The odds are we won't be alive at that time, the Bible is very unclear about the timing of these events. They become a distraction for weak minded Christians who wait instead of acting on his Word. Waiting Christians are a waste of God's work. They need to help their fellow man instead of working out a possible time of death for their body on earth.

Live for Christ, don't Wait for Christ.

 

I've done nothing since i came into this discussion but
show how the pretribulation rapture/resurrection
is very Biblical. And i'll probably be here past the
20th page when we go to "Rapture #2).

Post-it: "There is not enough proof yet that these are anymore
the end times than 1945, 1235, or 100 AD. "

Thank you. Then you agree that the end is as likely now as it ever was?

Peter announces the beginning of the "end times"
in Acts 2:17 (NASB):

AND IT SHALL BE IN THE LAST DAYS,' God says,
`THAT I WILL POUR FORTH OF MY SPIRIT ON ALL MANKIND;
AND YOUR SONS AND YOUR DAUGHTERS SHALL PROPHESY,
AND YOUR YOUNG MEN SHALL SEE VISIONS,
AND YOUR OLD MEN SHALL DREAM DREAMS;

2004-33 = 1,971 years. For 1,971 years
the LAST DAYS have been going on. Someday
they will come to an end.

Matthew 24:4-14 describes the last 1,971 years and as
many more as God needs to finish the "last days".
(NASB):

And Jesus answered and said to them, "See
to it that no one misleads you.
5 "For many will come in My name, saying, `I am the Christ,'
and will mislead many.
6 "You will be hearing of wars and rumors of wars.
See that you are not frightened, for those things must take place,
but that is not yet the end.
7 "For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom,
and in various places there will be famines and earthquakes.
8 "But all these things are merely the beginning of birth pangs.
9 "Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you,
and you will be hated by all nations because of My name.
10 "At that time many will fall away and will betray
one another and hate one another.
11 "Many false prophets will arise and will mislead many.
12 "Because lawlessness is increased, most
people's love will grow cold.

13 "But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.

14 "This gospel R881 of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world
as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come.

Even so, come Lord Jesus!

 

Your premesis is not correct.
There is a rapture that happens before
a Judgement called the Tribulation Period
(AKA: the Wrath). Raptures always
accompany a Resurrection; but all
Resurrections are not accompanied by Raptures.
(see my list of 5 raptures above.

 

That's different that waiting for the Lord to end your life. Your usage of this scripture is out of context. I hope you can see that.

 

Rapture is going direcly from this
life into a new body (like that of
Christ). Rapture is going directly from
this life to eternal life.
Rapture is about NOT dying.

Post-it: "That's different that waiting for the Lord to end your life."

Rapture is about NOT dying.
Some are chosen for the spiritual gift
of maryterdom. Who are they? How many
are they?

Post-it: "Your usage of this scripture is
out of context. I hope you can see that."

I do not respond to cryptograms.

 

Actually no. Since it wasn't before, it isn't likely to be now under your argument. Your statement can also be said of making the claim that a man lives on the moon. It is as likely now to be true, than it ever was.

The long list of verses to prove the end times was as true 100 AD as they are now. Why even list things that are of no real help in determining the end time? Maybe it was to let people know NOT to be looking for it. It was a statement that said, don't waste your time trying to do what witches and magicians do (seeing the future) because this is always what is going on, but rather go about your fathers work. But the weak needed some thread of hope that their misery would end soon. And they got it. But the people who eat spiritual meat see it for what it is. Something for weak minded Christians.

Some people were just not home on the day brains where handed out, why hide from the truth. Look at the Muslims extremist, or the White supremacist Christians or the down and out white trash that can't figure out why God has forsaken them. These and many others need milk found in the Bible but can't grasp anything higher. They are constrained by their rules of what can be done and what is a sin, what can be eaten and what can't. Paul himself admitted that to the weak, it will be sin. There are those that must cling to the written law in order not to break it, they haven't learned to listen to their hearts, for that is where God's law is truly written.

 

It is dying to this life as you know it. You will not be given in marriage, no more job, friends as you know them, problems, etc. You will effectivly be gone from this place we call earth.

Thus, my analogy to Christian suicide. End the misery of this life for the hope of the next round. Why people think it gets better is beyond me. I am enjoying this life just fine. I can create, achieve, learn, help others, enjoy family. Why would I wish to leave now? I have all eternity to enjoy the next life stage. But there are those who are being cheated out of this life by evil doers like ministers and government puppets who say there is no freedom, no justice, no happiness here. They say everyone is the enemy, on and on. It is all lies, But the weak fall for it. This pre-trib doctrine is part of this lie. It keeps people in the hole dug for them by the evil doers. God wants us to enjoy our life, live it to the fullest, and help each other. The Government and some evil minded churches (Catholic is one of many) seek to blind and control the masses.

 

post-it, if you say that this was your opinion then you have a point - otherwise you do fail the Scriptures miserably. That is my opinion.

For if you are right, then you discredit the Lord Jesus Christ....

</font>[/QUOTE]With all due respect, a careful biblical scholar cannot honestly use these words of Jesus to support the doctrine of a rapture.

Let’s look at these words of Jesus carefully:

The comparison:

“But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.”

Human activity on the day being compared:

Flood: “For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and knew not until the flood came…”

Coming of the Son of Man: “…so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. Then shall two be in the field… Two women shall be grinding at the mill…”

The fate of the wicked:

Flood: “…the flood came, and took them all away…”

Coming of the Son of Man: “[two in the field] …the one shall be taken… [two grinding at the mill]…the one shall be taken…” (NOTE: They are ‘taken’ in judgment, just like the people ‘taken’ by the flood.

The fate of the faithful:

Flood: Noah and his family were preserved through the flood

Coming of the Son of Man: “[two in the field] … the other left … [two grinding at the mill]… the other left …” (those who are faithful are preserved)

The clear words of Jesus tell us that we don’t want to be "taken", we should desire to be “left behind”.

 

Do you raise one hand or both
when you are praising God that it can
be that way?

When my first wife died of cancer for
six months, i promised her i'd meet her
in the pretribulation rapture/resurreciton.
When my step-father died of cancer for
four months, i promised himi'd meet him
in the pretribualtion rapture/resurrection.

My hope i'll be in the pretribulation rapture
is not negotiable. You can't take my hope
(i will share pieces of it freely though,
if you need some).
Wait till you find the hopeless times of
life/death and see if you can't use some
hope NO MATTER HOW THIN.

Praise Jesus

 

Interesting, posties and a-mills
using "rapture" to mean
"pretribulation rapture/resurrection".
I think the pretribs rule the day
on this topic.

Yes, Sweet Jesus!

 

Ed,

You say to my old friend JBrumley,

Lot of Christians have different views and opinions. We all have opinions, even include yourself too.

Actually, I have been known you for 3 years, and you use to intepreting scriptures into TOOOOOOOOOOOOO MUCH Logical, I notice you.

Being logically is dangerous to doing it.

Lot of Christians won't admit that they are mistakes. I have mistakes, JBrumley have mistakes, even include you made mistakes too. Romans 3:10 tells us, there is NONE righteousness, NO not ONE.

We have to be humble and accept what the Bible saying so, follow it, not by our own ideas, opinions, and logicals too.

You discuss on Rev. 20:4 that you interpreting it into two groups. If so, thet God have two families? In another word, we have two different Gods? Or two different Jesus?

Rev. 20:4 is very clear telling us, that John saw THEM(John, himself include) that they were beheaded - martyrdom throughout the centuries of the church history, and include persecution under Antichrist. , and they who refuse worship the Beast, they have the FIRST resurrection.

Everyone Christians have the first resurrection, because Christ quickened us from death - Eph. 2:1 and 5.

All Old Testament saints have the first resurrection, all New Testament saints have the first resurrection. There is no difference between O.T. and N.T. saints, both are same in the Lord's sight - Gal. 3:26,28-29. All are God's family. Both O.T. and N.T. saints shall dwell in New Jerusalem forever and ever, because they have the first resurrection.

Word, 'resurrection' is not appear till Revelation chapter 20, obivously, we shall go through tribulation first - John 16:33, Acts 14:22, 1 Thess. 3:3-4.

Even, word 'resurrection' is not find in Rev. 4:1.

Rev. 4:1 is not talking about rapture/resurrection. Rev. 4:1 talks about John's experince in the spirit by through vision, that John was called come up to heaven, as the angel shows him to see the future things. Same with Rev. 17:1, and Rev. 21:9 - 'Come hither'.

No excuse for pretribbers can understand what word- 'last day' means.

EVEN, 5th Grade or 6th Grade student know what is 'last day' means. Because students know the school will be on the lsat day. Once the last day come and past, then the next day, all kids are happy and exciting NO MORE class again for the summer!

Same with John 6:39,40,44, and 54. Christ tells us, that we shall be rise ON the last day. Last day simple means FINAL day of the age.

You saying John 6:39 is a proof text of pretrib.

Problem is, pretribbers saying rapture is NOT second advent, both are separate event.

If suppose pretribbers are correct according to John 6:39 is pretrib resurrection. That means, resurrection shall be 2,555 days EARLIER BEFORE the second advent. Pretrib skipped 2555 days from the end of the age - 2555 days earlier against what Christ saying.

Resurrection simple willbe occur ON the last day of the age.

RIGHT NOW, we are in the last dayS. Last days already start since after Calvary to now. Last days have been for 2,000 years. Many people in the past, saying where is the promise of Christ's coming? - 2 Peter 3:4. Many were expecting Christ might come in their lifetime. But Christ does not come in their lifetime. Many died throughout centuries to now.

 

Do you raise one hand or both
when you are praising God that it can
be that way?

When my first wife died of cancer for
six months, i promised her i'd meet her
in the pretribulation rapture/resurreciton.
When my step-father died of cancer for
four months, i promised himi'd meet him
in the pretribualtion rapture/resurrection.

My hope i'll be in the pretribulation rapture
is not negotiable. You can't take my hope
(i will share pieces of it freely though,
if you need some).
Wait till you find the hopeless times of
life/death and see if you can't use some
hope NO MATTER HOW THIN.

Praise Jesus </font>[/QUOTE]So now finally, we get to the truth. It is exactly as I have been saying. You are the perfect example of the exact points I have been making. The type of misery you have felt through the hardships were met with a hope that you would also "die" and end the misery you felt through these horrible times. It as though you have been left behind... alone.

Instead of redirecting your life toward living, you are finding comfort in the hope that the end will come soon for you, a Christian suicide. Brother, the ones that left already, don't want you to focus on death, but rather on LIFE, on Jesus and helping your LIVING brothers and sisters that are still here. The Lord is not ready for you to take your leave of this life, otherwise you would not be here. So redirect your life tonight. Ask the Lord where and what are you to start living for and waiting for.

God Bless.

 

Thank you for the word of encouragement.
Now I pray you will find some edifying words.

My second wife and i are married two years
now. In August i bought a house,
i'll be 89 when it is paid for
(should the Lord tarry).
In Sept 2003 I turned 60. I have everything
to live for. So much for any guift
of "word of knowledge"

 

DeafPostTrib: "No excuse for pretribbers can understand what word- 'last day' means."

Tee Hee. You not only don't have a counter
argument to mine, you don't even understand
what i said.

I need to go to bed. You know
i work days. But stay up all night
and analize one of my WHO, WHEN, WHERE,
WHY posts. Do you know yet what a "goy"
is?