THE KINGDOM, Have you not read?

You admit that there is a difference between the absolute positional perfection, and the practical experiential perfection. There is also an absolute positional justification and a practical experiential justification. When you figure this out, you will be willing to see what we are telling you. If you just take a verse that says 'I'm justified' and say that means there is nothing else for you, then you are wrong. You may absolutely be justified by faith, just as Abraham. It says Abraham believed and it was counted unto him for righteousness. Then Abraham was justified by works when he layed Isaac on the altar. One is positional, one is practical. All your references have been discussed over and over.

I don't know how you have come to the conclusion that Hebrews 10:17 somehow cancels out Hebrews 10:26-29. They are both true, and they are both written to you.

 

Yes.

Absolutely correct.

Nothing to touch. Great scripture. perfectly in line with Kingdom truth. We believe in Once-saved-always-saved.

Amen.

Amen.

Amen.

Amen. All sins are forgiven, but some still have consequences. For example, if I commit the sin of murder, I am forgiven but I still go to jail. If I commit the sin of suicide, I am forgiven but I still die. If I commit the sin of fornication, I am forgiven but I still miss the kingdom.

In an absolute (Positional) sense, Amen. but did he "forget" the sin (practically) of the brother who fornicated with his dad's wife in Corinth? Then why kick him out of the Church? Have you not been listening?

At least you included the conditional part of the verse this time! Amen!

No. that is silly.

Jonah 2:1,2; Matt 5: 21,22, 27-30; Matt 10:28, Matt 18:9, Mark 9, Luke 12:46, Rev 20:13-15, 1 Cor 3:13-16, Heb 10:29-31,

We have responded and responded. You must divide salvation and chastening. You must divide salvation and chastening. You must divide salvation and chastening. You must divide salvation and chastening.
You must divide salvation and chastening. You must divide salvation and chastening.
You must divide salvation and chastening. You must divide salvation and chastening.
You must divide salvation and chastening. You must divide salvation and chastening.
You must divide salvation and chastening. You must divide salvation and chastening.


KJV Hebrews 12:5-9
5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:
6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.
9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

Explain how God can chasten us for sins that are under the blood. Explain that to yourself and then you will know.

Absolutely permanent. Infinitely sufficient.

KJV John 6:39-40
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.


in Christ, lacy

 

Lacy,

Hebrews chapter 12 deals with us, while we are living, NOT after our death. God is now currently discipling us in our live to becoming perfect or mature.

There is no evidence find anywhere in the Bible telling us that hell/lake of fire is a temporary. It is clear teaching us, it is an everlasting punishment, no one shall be released from it.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

The point Lacy is trying to make is that if God can chasten us in this life, as we see in Hebrews 12, even though all our sins are forgiven, then He can chasten us after death as well. There is no bar to it in scripture. If you say that God cannot cast you into outer darkness during the kingdom because you have been redeemed, how do you explain His chastening in this life? We have been forgiven and He will never remember our sins, so why is He spanking us so hard?

Hebrews 12 says IF we endure His chastening, He deals with us as sons. He says despise not the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when we are rebuked of Him. But what happens if we despise the chastening?

Verse 16 and 17 gives an illustration with Esau...
16 Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright.
17 For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears.

Esau was still a son of Isaac, but he missed out on the inheritance that would have been his, had he not opted for the instant gratification of pleasures in this life. He held his birthright in contempt, as do we if we do not forego pleasing our flesh in this life to serve the Lord. We will not be partaking of His inheritance if we do not partake of His suffering.

 

Amen James and Lacy! The bible is more than clear on this subject. Every child will experience their Father's chastisment (beating) for disobedience:
Pr 23:13 Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die.
14 Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell.
If God has commanded earthly fathers to chasten his children, shall He NOT do likewise?

Heb 12:5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:

Shall we not reap what we sow?
Ga 6:7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.
Either this verse means that one is saved by "being good" or it means that one is saved by "being good!" As Lacy said you must divide between salvaion and chastening. If believers are as such based on the merit of Christ applied to us, then what does that verse mean? There must be more to salvation than eternal life in eternity. And the scripture agrees:
Ac 27:31 Paul said to the centurion and to the soldiers, Except these abide in the ship, ye cannot be saved.

What say ye?

Deacon Lew

 

That's the thing that gets my goat.
Why is it that when one says God demands obedience that immediately some one will cry foul! "My sins are forgiven! I will not be judged for my sins!"
Yet the Bible says, "judgement must begin at the house of God"
The Bible says, "we must all appear before the judgement seat of Christ"
The Bible says, "If ye love Me, keep my commandments."
The Bible says, "herein is our love made perfect. that we may have boldness in the day of judgement..."

I fully understand the resistance of the many who cry, "My sins are forgiven!"
I was there once. I resisted also.
But Paul answered, "Shall we sin that grace may abound? GOD FORBID!"
Is disobedience, sin?
Is unfaithfulness, sin?
Is unbelief, sin?
Is slothfulness, sin?
Is neglect, sin?
Is prayerlessness, sin?
Are they forgiven?
Does forgiveness negate the law of sowing and reaping?
Be not deceived, God is not mocked, for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard in the beginning, ye should walk in it.
Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a FULL reward.

And on, and on, and on,...

Happy thanksgiving brethren!

In HIS service;
Jim

 

Jim, James, Lacy, Deacon Lew,

Do you expect to spend "a little time in hell" yourselves? Will all believers (in your interpretation) do so? When will believers do this "time in hell?" Immediately upon death, or after the "judgment?" Sorry if these are redundant questions. I would just like to take a fresh perspective.

 

John, I expect to be judged perfectly by the Lord for my works, and if my works are found to be lacking, then yes I believe I will miss the kingdom. Just as the apostle Paul could not say that he had attained, we don't have any absolute assurance that we are going to be crowned at the judgment seat. Toward the end of his life, Paul was able to say that he knew he had a crown of righteousness laid up for him, after he had received revelation that he was going to be martyred.

2Tim 4
6 For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand.
7 I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith:

1John 3
20 For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things.
21 Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, then have we confidence toward God.

If we can honestly say that we have nothing in our lives that needs to change, and we are walking with the Lord daily, then we can have confidence. I can't say that I have this confidence right now, in all honesty there is much in my life that I do not believe is pleasing to the Lord. But I do have hope:
Phil 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

Luke 12:32 Fear not, little flock; for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom.

As for exactly when the disobendient may find himself in hell, I believe that it may start as soon as they die, based on the parable of Lazarus and the rich man. Lacy might be able to shed a little more light on that, I don't think it really makes a whole lot of difference.

 

James,

Thank you for your reply, and I hope you and yours had a very nice Thanksgiving.

You said "if my works are found to be lacking." Certainly you know what God says about the face value of "our works?"

As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one Romans 3:10

All of us have become like one who is unclean,
and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags;
we all shrivel up like a leaf,
and like the wind our sins sweep us away.
Isaiah 64:6

None of our deeds are worthy of distinction by God; not to gain salvation, nor to dispel His wrath.

For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not abide by all things written in the book of the law, to perform them.”
Now that no one is justified by the Law before God is evident; for, “The righteous man shall live by faith.” Galatians 3:10-11

Our deeds are important. They are the “fruit of the Spirit,” and as James teaches us, faith without works is a “dead faith,” but we are justified by our faith, not our works. Only when our "works" are done as an expression of love and a desire to glorify God, are their imperfections overlooked by God, i.e. imperfect works are worthy of expressing love and glorifying God, but not for obtaining salvation or avoiding wrath. The standard for those is:

Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect. Matthew 5:48

But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction; for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus; Romans 3:21-24

A parenthetical comment explaining that God can bestow His righteousness on all who believe, Jew or Gentile, because all men—without distinction—fail miserably to live up to the divine standard. We have been "justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus."

Therefore, by what standard does God sentence a believer to a “layover in hell” on the way to heaven?

But since we are of the day, let us be sober, having put on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet, the hope of salvation. For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, who died for us, so that whether we are awake or asleep, we will live together with Him. Therefore encourage one another and build up one another, just as you also are doing. 1 Thessalonians 5:8-11

Who is the object of this passage? Answer: The “destined” or as Eph 1:4 says, those whom He chose before the creation of the world – His “elect,” i.e. all the saints.

What is the promise? Answer: 1. We are "not destined for wrath! 2. We will obtain “salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,” and 3. “whether we are awake or asleep, we will live together with Him.” Somehow, I just can’t reconcile the picture of “living with Him” in hell!

 

Thanksgiving was great, John. I hope you and yours were blessed as well.

You say that our works are all filthy rags, and you are correct. That does not negate the fact that I will appear before the Lord at the judgment seat and be judged for them.

2 Corinthians 5:10
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

Are you sure you are not still confusing absolute positional with relative practical again? Jesus said:
John 11
26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

So does this mean that you will not ever die? Thats what it says. But there are many good Christians in the grave.

What about this:

Luke 21:18 But there shall not an hair of your head perish.

Tell that to all those Christians who became torches in Nero's garden.

Obviously there is a division that must be made, between dying temporarily in a bodily sense and dying for eternity in a spiritual sense. We know that this promise refers to dying in an absolute sense, after the resurrection and has nothing to do with dying in this world.

If there is a promise to believers that is unconditional, it is not cancelled out by any conditional promises nor by the failure of attaining such promises. We will live together with him. The only question is when will we get this promise? Some Christians will receive eternal life 1000 years earlier than others.

1Cor 3
11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

It is entirely possible for God to destroy you at the judgment seat (as promised, for being a defiled temple) and then raise you up again 1000 years later and fulfil the promises given to us unconditionally for believing on Him.

 

James,

I hope you understand this to refer to the spirit/soul and not our perishable bodies? The moment my body dies my spirit/soul will be present with the Lord. When the "dead in Christ" are raised at the second advent of Jesus, my new imperishable body will be joined with my spirit which has been with Jesus since my death.

So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown a perishable body, it is raised an imperishable body; it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 1 Corinthians 15:42-43

If my body is "raised in glory" and "power," could it be that I encounter a "layover in hell on the way to heaven?"

Regarding 2 Corinthians 5:10, I have already revealed that for believers, the word used for "judgment seat" is "bema," which in Corinth (where the letter was sent) was well known as a platform for awarding athletes, giving the reader/listener a word picture of an awards ceremony and not a trial, which fits with other scriptures on the judgment of believers.

Now, other than a scanty reference to "filthy rags," once again you went straight to your agenda. You did not address any of the numerous, very serious questions I raised. Until you do, I see it as pointless to continue!

 

Brother john,

Do you expect to get fired from your job for insubordination? Does my son expect to get his rear end busted? Does the president expect to get impeached? Come on man, it depends entirely on what I do with the gifts I am given. it depends on if I am forgiving and merciful. It depends on if I am watchful, obedient, faithful, etc. But you could read the context of the scriptures we have shown you and come to that conclusion yourself. I am thankful that you have eternal security down. I can't see why you can't see that we agree there.

Let me ask you a couple of questions. If a Christian fornicates and does not repent will he inherit the Kingdom? If you believe yes, then prove it with scripture. And don't give me that mess about a "REAL" Christian wouldn't do such things, because we both know they do. If they didn't then why would the Bible warn us not to.If you decided to get drunk and beat your fellow servants, what would happen to you if the Lord returned at an hour when you didn't expect him?

I await your answer.

lacy

 

You have to rightly divide wrath. If taken in an absolute sense, then God would be contradicting himself by chastening us. You have built an imaginary wall to hearing the truth (of Biblical accountability of the believer) by trusting in the notion that death is some kind of magic buffer against any further chastening. I challenge you to prove the precept with scripture. (I have been diligently trying for many years and so far no dice.)

Show me where the Bible says that death ends all chastening. 2Co 5:10; Romans 14:10-12; Colossians 3:24-25

Amen. I absolutely agree. I have said that several times but you refuse to believe me. As James Newman so poetically put it, I could cut up Billy Graham with a butcher knife and still be saved. Once saved always Saved. Amen!

It doesn't matter what you can or cannot "reconcile". Let God be true and every man a liar!

KJV Psalms 139:8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.

KJV Revelation 20:14-15
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire

KJV Jonah 2:1-10
1 Then Jonah prayed unto the Lord his God out of the fish's belly,
2 And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the Lord, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell cried I, and thou heardest my voice.
3 For thou hadst cast me into the deep, in the midst of the seas; and the floods compassed me about: all thy billows and thy waves passed over me.
4 Then I said, I am cast out of thy sight; yet I will look again toward thy holy temple.
5 The waters compassed me about, even to the soul: the depth closed me round about, the weeds were wrapped about my head.
6 I went down to the bottoms of the mountains; the earth with her bars was about me for ever: yet hast thou brought up my life from corruption, O Lord my God.
7 When my soul fainted within me I remembered the Lord: and my prayer came in unto thee, into thine holy temple.
8 They that observe lying vanities forsake their own mercy.
9 But I will sacrifice unto thee with the voice of thanksgiving; I will pay that that I have vowed. Salvation is of the Lord.
10 And the Lord spake unto the fish, and it vomited out Jonah upon the dry land.

 

Brother john,

Do you expect to get fired from your job for insubordination? Does my son expect to get his rear end busted? Does the president expect to get impeached? Come on man, it depends entirely on what I do with the gifts I am given. it depends on if I am forgiving and merciful. It depends on if I am watchful, obedient, faithful, etc. But you could read the context of the scriptures we have shown you and come to that conclusion yourself. I am thankful that you have eternal security down. I can't see why you can't see that we agree there.

Let me ask you a couple of questions. If a Christian fornicates and does not repent will he inherit the Kingdom? If you believe yes, then prove it with scripture. And don't give me that mess about a "REAL" Christian wouldn't do such things, because we both know they do. If they didn't then why would the Bible warn us not to.If you decided to get drunk and beat your fellow servants, what would happen to you if the Lord returned at an hour when you didn't expect him?

I await your answer.

lacy </font>[/QUOTE]There are many places in the Bible where we are told if we commit a certain sin we "will not inherit the kingdom of God." So then no one is going to heaven, right? The Greek treatment of the verbs in those sentences implies habitual (fornicating, for example). The believer indwelt by the Holy Spirit does not have an inclination toward sin, but an inclination toward righteousness. That doesn't mean he/she doesn't ever sin, but doesn't do so habitually.

You know, I think the key here is you believe everyone who claims the name of Jesus is a believer (Christian), and whereas you see many that you claim are Christians not living Christ-like lives and think these verses you keep tossing up must apply to them, and that they deserve to be chastened. Well, you're right about their deserving to be chastened, but it's because they are not saved. They don't have a relationship with Jesus Christ . . . no relationship, no son-ship! So I think our difference is you see these professing but false Christians doing "a little time" in hell, whereas I see their visit as permanent.

“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. “For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. “He who believes in Him IS NOT JUDGED; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. John 3:16-18

It’s a pity the KJV uses the word “condemned” instead of “judged.” The Greek word used here, krino, translates “judge” 88 times and only 5 times condemn. Check the definitions in a Strong’s lexicon.

 

Lacy Evans said: Show me where the Bible says that death ends all chastening. 2Co 5:10; Romans 14:10-12; Colossians 3:24-25

I just showed you above where it says we will not be judged. I have shown you that the "judgment seat of Christ" a bema seat, is a place of rewards. I'm sure the Corinthians understood the analogy. It's too bad you refuse to.

I have shown you where God says "I will remember your sins no more."

Jesus told several people, "Your sins are forgiven."

I have shown you verses that say we HAVE BEEN sanctified, redeemed, cleansed, justified, etc.

While repentance and seeking to live righteously are part of the "new creation" that we become when we are "born again," our desire to please is driven by love and not "pain avoidance" (chastening). Since we all continue to commit sins after becoming saved, God may choose to chasten us with consequences during our lifetime, but when we die, we are set free from our sinful nature bodies. The chastening is to keep our sinful nature bodies in line while we are alive. It is no longer needed when we are "absent from those bodies and present with the Lord!"

One reason God is lenient with believers is He understands that we are still under the power of "the curse," our bodies inheriting the sinful nature.

So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me. For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not. For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want. But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me. Romans 7:17-20

Lacy Evans said: KJV Revelation 20:14-15
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire

Yes, and where's your "believers cast in for the temporary?"

Lacy Evans said: KJV Jonah 2:1-10
1 Then Jonah prayed unto the Lord his God out of the fish's belly,
2 And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the Lord, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell cried I, and thou heardest my voice.
3 For thou hadst cast me into the deep, in the midst of the seas; and the floods compassed me about: all thy billows and thy waves passed over me.
4 Then I said, I am cast out of thy sight; yet I will look again toward thy holy temple.
5 The waters compassed me about, even to the soul: the depth closed me round about, the weeds were wrapped about my head.
6 I went down to the bottoms of the mountains; the earth with her bars was about me for ever: yet hast thou brought up my life from corruption, O Lord my God.
7 When my soul fainted within me I remembered the Lord: and my prayer came in unto thee, into thine holy temple.
8 They that observe lying vanities forsake their own mercy.
9 But I will sacrifice unto thee with the voice of thanksgiving; I will pay that that I have vowed. Salvation is of the Lord.
10 And the Lord spake unto the fish, and it vomited out Jonah upon the dry land.

“Sheol” frequently has a hyperbolic meaning in contexts where it denotes a catastrophic condition near death (Ps. 30:3). Later Jonah expressed praise for his deliverance “from the pit,” speaking of his escape from certain death. You don't believe Jonah died and saw the literal hell while in the belly of the fish do you?

God created hell! He can be there and everywhere. That was the point of your Psalms reference. But God and/or Jesus doesn't hang out there. Since Jesus promises that He will "be with us always," I think the burden of proof is on you to show where believers will spend time in hell on the way to heaven. The few vague, scriptures about chastening, some referring to "in this lifetime," others referring to non-believers or crowds mixed with both believers and non-believers, is not a strong case to support your claim.

 

These scriptures have nothing to do with Heaven. Do you still think that "Heaven" and the "Kingdom" are the same? Oh my. Why are we debating where a Christian goes if he misses the Kingdom if you don't even know what the kingdom is?

You have never habitually sinned since you got saved? All your old habits (Most of which you were probably unaware that they even were sinful) were just immediately stopped when you were saved? Please read Hebrews 10:26-31. does it say "habitually" or "wilfully"? Honestly.

Brother, did you just see what you did? You stopped debating me, set up a straw man, knocked it over and then contented yourself in a victory over me. I believe that everyone who is saved is a Christian. Period. Every believer in Christ's atoning blood is eternally secure. I do not believe that everyone who claims the name of Christ is saved. I have never said that. We have never discussed it. I am talking about saved folks.

Here is my question. (Again)
How does your so called "false professer" get saved? Now be careful or you will miss what I am really asking you. You apply all the warnings to "non-believers or crowds mixed with both believers and non-believers." These warnings generally say, "Quit sinning, be good, watch, forgive, cut off the sins that offend, etc. or go to hell." Is that what you tell folks when you go soul-winning?

Hi, My name is John. Did you know that the Bible says that if you cut off your hand you can be saved? Did you know that if you stop "habitually" sinning that you can be saved? Just be watchful. Don't beat your fellow servants. Forgive others. Don't fornicate. And you can be a Christian!

Now I know that is not what you believe about salvation. But that is what you are saying when you apply these conditional warnings to salvation. Please think about it.

Actually you haven't. I haven't seen it. Here are many of the other NT references to the Judgment/Bema seat.

Please show me which of these refer to an awards ceremony? Where do you get the "awards ceremony" thing? It isn't in the Bible brother.

 

Lacy,

I'm quite tired and bored of your condescending attitude and haughtiness. If you cannot debate nicely, then you should drop it and stop sinning!

And the Lord's servant must not quarrel; instead, he must be kind to everyone, able to teach, not resentful. Those who oppose him he must gently instruct, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth, and that they will come to their senses and escape from the trap of the devil, who has taken them captive to do his will. (2 Tim 2:24-26 NIV)

How dare you demand answers to your questions when you refuse to answer mine!

WHERE IN THE BIBLE DOES IT SAY THAT SAINTS WILL SPEND TIME IN HELL?

But when we are judged, we are disciplined by the Lord so that we will not be condemned along with the world. 1 Corinthians 11:32

For it is time for judgment to begin with the household of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the outcome for those who do not obey the gospel of God? And if it is with difficulty that the righteous is saved, what will become of the godless man and the sinner?
Therefore, those also who suffer according to the will of God shall entrust their souls to a faithful Creator in doing what is right. 1 Peter 4:17-19

Theologian/Preacher John Gill's commentary on the above:

"By the house of God is either meant the temple at Jerusalem . . . or else the church of God, because it is of his building, where he dwells, and grants his gracious presence, and which he beautifies, fills, repairs, and defends; and so may design believers in Christ, those that are of the household and family of God: and by judgment is meant, not punishment for sin, strictly speaking, because Christ has endured this in the room and stead of his church and people. and therefore in justice cannot be inflicted on them; but afflictions and persecutions, and which are fatherly chastisements, and different from God's judgment on the world, and condemnation with it; these may said to "begin" with them, because it is only in this life the saints have their afflictions: and which are in love to them, and therefore are early brought upon them to try them, and purge them, and make them partakers of his holiness . . ."

I will seek to live my life obediently out of love and a desire to glorify God, not self-centeredly to seek "pain avoidance" under some unbiblical threat of sinning believers going to hell. I can't believe I have spent this much time on the absurd premise that "many" believers will be shipped off to hell for a little while to have their already forgiven sins repaid for! I will not spend any more.

 

I sincerely apologize. I never even tried to be sarcastic. I honestly think you misread something. Can you point out what was so mean or haughty sounding? I regard you as my brother who is seeking the truth. I could care a less about the debate, other than I think I am right. I might be wrong. All I did (in my opinion) is answer your questions.

Lacy

 

Why is it self centered to try to "avoid pain"? Is a father unrighteous who threatens to recompense disobedience? Why would God threaten to chasten us if it were unholy and self-centered to try to avoid the chastening pain? What about the very Biblical threat of an unbeliever going to the lake of fire? Would it be self centered for his desire to avoid the pain be motivation to get saved?

Why not partake with the children of disobedience? I'm saved so this doesn't apply to me. Why warn that it not be named among the saints? According to you, the saints have no "inclination toward sin".

Brother, I only am trying to point out the inconsistencies of your arguments. I am not trying to hurt your feelings or to be sarcastic, haughty, or mean. I would hope you would do the same to me out of love.

lacy

 

Luke 12
45 But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken;
46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.