THE KINGDOM, Have you not read?

Sorry James, but the servant who beats men and women is not and never was a saint! He gets his portion with unbelievers because he never was a believer. If you were using a more accurate translation, it would be clearer to you:

“But if that slave says in his heart, ‘My master will be a long time in coming,’ and begins to beat the slaves, both men and women, and to eat and drink and get drunk; the master of that slave will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he does not know, and will cut him in pieces, and assign him a place with the unbelievers. Luke 12:45-46

WHERE IN THE BIBLE DOES IT SAY THAT SAINTS WILL SPEND TIME IN HELL?

Surely you can do better than that!

 

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Lacy Evans said: Why is it self centered to try to "avoid pain"?

Because your deeds are done for your own benefit and not for God's glory, based on love! It illustrates love of self, not love of God. It's placing your needs before God's needs. BIG, BIG difference!

Lacy Evans said: Why would God threaten to chasten us (snip)

Because God is keeping our sinful nature in check. Once our spirits are rid of the sinful nature body at death, there is no longer any need to chasten, and you will not find any scripture to the contrary. (see Gill's comment in previous post).

Lacy Evans said: Why not partake with the children of disobedience?

Because we are children of "the light" and they are children of the "darkness," and the light has nothing to do with the darkness.

for you are all sons of light and sons of day. We are not of night nor of darkness; 1 Thessalonians 5:5

Lacy Evans said: Why warn that it not be named among the saints? According to you, the saints have no "inclination toward sin".

Not having an inclination toward sin does not mean "sinless." Nothing wrong with stating God's desire that saints not sin. Does He not also know and understand that we will anyway? Yes, as Author of "the curse" that gave us our sinful natures, inherited from birth, God knows we cannot help but sin. See my post a few back where Paul acknowledges his sinful nature condition.

Lacy Evans said:
You must divide salvation and chastening. You must divide salvation and chastening.
You must divide salvation and chastening. You must divide salvation and chastening.
You must divide salvation and chastening. You must divide salvation and chastening.
You must divide salvation and chastening. You must divide salvation and chastening.

And I say, you must divide the body, with its curse of the sinful nature, and the spirit/soul of a person. It is in the body of the believer that sin resides. The spirit/soul has been sanctified. The definition of that is "made holy, set apart." God chastens and/or allows consequences of our sins while we are alive and in that sinful nature body to keep us in check. Once the spirit/soul separates from that body of death, chastening STOPS!

If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us. 1 John 1:8

If sin is sin and we all ARE guilty, Lacy, and God is no respector of persons, what is the standard by which some saints will "layover" in hell on the way to heaven, and others won't?

WHERE IN THE BIBLE DOES IT SAY THAT SAINTS WILL SPEND TIME IN HELL?

 

Luke 12
45 But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken;
46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers. </font>[/QUOTE]A servant who thinks his Lord delayeth his coming and beats the menservants and maidens is an apostate.

Paul warned the Ephesian elders regarding persecution by "savage wolves" from outside and apostasy within by those who "distort the truth" (Acts 20;29-30).

Paul's second letter to Timothy informs him of Hymenaeus and Philetus, two heretical leaders "who have wandered away from the truth" and destroyed the faith of some (2:16-18).

Hymenaeus and Philetus were types of the apostate servant in the parable. "Nevertheless, God's soled foundation stands firm, sealed with this inscription: 'the Lord knows those who are his'(V. 19)."

Many apostate or self styled Christians in the Church today will not participate in the rapture, instead they will be assign a place with the unbelievers.

 

John Wells says, "Sorry James, but the servant who beats men and women is not and never was a saint! "

This happened quite frequently under the rule of both Luther and Calvin.
Are you saying they never were saints of God?

In His service;
Jim

 

If this 'that servant' is not a believer...
45 But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken;

then neither is this one...
43 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
44 Of a truth I say unto you, that he will make him ruler over all that he hath.

Unless you can explain how 'that servant' lost his salvation between verse 44 and 45, that is. Peter seemed to have a problem with applying these scriptures to himself as well...

41 Then Peter said unto him, Lord, speakest thou this parable unto us, or even to all?

 

Because your deeds are done for your own benefit and not for God's glory, based on love! It illustrates love of self, not love of God. It's placing your needs before God's needs. BIG, BIG difference! </font>[/QUOTE]So if I, out of the fear (2 Cor 5:11) of God, obey then it is selfish. If I resist the terrible urge to ________ (insert pet sin here), and deny my flesh because I fear God, then it displeases God? It is not based on Love? God said if I we love him we are to keep his commandments. One of his commandments is to fear him (1 Peter 1:17). Fearing God is an act of love. Seeking reward is an act of love. (Heb 11:6) You cannot serve God, cannot biblically love God without fearing him and diligently seeking his promised rewards.

Because God is keeping our sinful nature in check. Once our spirits are rid of the sinful nature body at death, there is no longer any need to chasten, and you will not find any scripture to the contrary. (see Gill's comment in previous post). </font>[/QUOTE]There may or may not be a "need" to chasten. But one thing is sure. If God says he will beat a servant with few stripes or with many stripes, he wasn't joking! "If you are bad, I'll whip you when I return. just kidding."

What a cruel cosmic joke to all those who out of love and fear of almighty God were obedient unto suffering and unto death, who strove unto blood because they feared God's chastening and longed to serve a loving Father, if they get the same reward as a fool who thought it silly to fear God and always yielded to temptation, feared man, and coddled his flesh for a lifetime. If we tread the blood of Christ (wherewith we WERE sanctified) underfoot we don't have to worry about God's vengence just because we are saved? (Heb 10)

Even under the old covenant God chastened his children. (Heb 12)

Hebrews 10:29 promises us something worse than they got (which was death) because we are under a greater covenant. Unto whom much is given shall much be required. Hebrews 12:18-29 teaches us that Sion is a much scarier mountain than Sinai

Because we are children of "the light" and they are children of the "darkness," and the light has nothing to do with the darkness.

for you are all sons of light and sons of day. We are not of night nor of darkness; 1 Thessalonians 5:5</font>[/QUOTE]I agree with your statement but you failed to address the question. What is our motivation to not partake with them according to Ephesians 5:1-7. Honestly?

Again, you keep saying it but you offer no scripture.

Nobody knows the exact standard. Scripture teaches it is different for each man. It depends upon what gifts you were given, how much mercy you showed in your lifetime, how obedient you were, how much you suffered, etc. God is no respecter of persons. That is true enough. The hypothetical disobedient servant in Luke 12:43-46 is the same man as the hypothetical obedient servant. The thing that changed his "reward" was not his status (saved or unsaved) it was his behavior (obedient or disobedient).

Luke 12 teaches that the disobedient servant receives a "portion with the unbelievers". A portion is a part. "With" indicates who he is accompanied by.

I lived part of my life with Okies. Easy. For a temporary period of time I was there in the presence of Okies. There are two very clear implications.
1) I am not an Okie. (My folks are)
2) My stay wasn't permanent. (I have my own family now who are, thankfully, all Texans.)


He got a portion (part) with the unbelievers
1) He is not an unbeliever. (Otherwise he would have gotten a whole not just a part.)
2) He was where they were and it wasn't permanent. He gets out in Rev 20:15.

Lacy

 

I still think the servant doing the beating is not a believer, but a hypocrite.

Lk. 12:42-46
The servant beating the menservants and maidservants will be cut to pieces and assigned a place with the unbelievers .

Mt. 24:48-50
The servant who beats his fellow servants will be cut to pieces and assigned a place with the hypocrites , where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth .

Mt. 13:49-50
"This is how it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come and separate the wicked from the righteous and throw them into the fiery furnace , where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth .

 

Prophecynut,
Thanks for the good posts.

I agree that he would be a hypocrite. But being hypocritical doesn't make us lose our salvation. The context seems to say that the servant has a choice as to how he behaves. We are often ready to accept that a Christian's rewards are based on his behavior, but hesitant to apply both positive and negative aspects of reward. (2 Pe 2:13, Re 18:6)

If this is a warning to an unbelieving hypocrite, then what is the doctrine being taught? "Don't get drunk and beat people if you want to be saved?"

I believe the scriptures addressed to unbelievers consistently point him to the cross and believing on Christ's finished work. Why tell an unbeliever (hypocrite or not) to be good? He needs to get saved!

Telling him to be good would confound the gospel. He doesn't even have the Holy Ghost to empower him to good works, nor does he have the blood applied to sanctify his "good" works. Without salvation, even Mother Theresa's or Ghandi's works are filthy rags. But as far as I know neither got drunk or beat anybody.


In Christ, Lacy

 

Let's go to the summary of Jesus' teaching:

47 “And that slave who knew his master’s will and did not get ready or act in accord with his will, will receive many lashes,

48 but the one who did not know it, and committed deeds worthy of a flogging, will receive but few. From everyone who has been given much, much will be required; and to whom they entrusted much, of him they will ask all the more. Luke 12:47-48

We see clearly that these are examples of different slave’s actions and consequences, not a single slave who veered in both directions as you would have us believe. The “lord” with a little “l” clearly shows that “master” is the better word choice, which the NASB uses. The examples are slaves/servants and their masters.

The degree of punishment is commensurate with the extent to which the unfaithful behavior was willful. Note that ignorance is nonetheless no excuse (v. 48). That there will be varying degrees of punishment in hell is clearly taught in Matt. 10:15; 11:22,24; Mark 6:11 and Heb. 10:29

Now let’s look at the KJV translator’s choice of “portion.” The Greek word:

meros - From an obsolete but more primary form of meiromai (to get as a section or allotment); 43 occurrences; AV translates as “part” 24 times, “portion” three times, “coast” three times, “behalf” twice, “respect” twice, and translated miscellaneously nine times. 1 a part. 1A a part due or assigned to one. 1B lot, destiny. 2 one of the constituent parts of a whole. 2A in part, partly, in a measure, to some degree, as respects a part, severally, individually. 2B any particular, in regard to this, in this respect.

Even the AV translators used the word “allotment” or “part” much more often (67 to 3) than “portion.” Part, lot, destiny, allotment, place all do not serve the purpose of your argument that this assignment could be temporary. This is one of many examples why I believe the Bible believer is better served referencing a variety of the more established modern translations as well as Hebrew/Greek lexicons to get at the real meaning, particularly in troublesome scriptures.

So . . .

WHERE IN THE BIBLE DOES IT SAY THAT BELIEVERS WILL GO TO HELL?


When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us ALL OUR TRANSGRESSIONS, having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. Colossians 2:13-14

Please, Lacy, James et al, please STOP. Don’t go off on tangents. Explain how your “believers go to hell” premise fits in with this awesome promise by God?

 

Thats not a promise, its a statement of fact. How can I promise to do something that has already been done? What does it have to do with the chastening of a disobedient believer? If God can chasten you in this life, he can chasten you in the next. If that verse says God can't chasten you in the next life because your sins are forgiven, then it must apply to this life too. So how do you figure that God chastens us in this life for sin? We have been forgiven and our sins are nailed to the cross! How does that fit in with your theory that no believer goes to hell?

Show me the verse that says chastening ends at death.

 

An obvious detraction from the fact you can't answer:

WHERE IN THE BIBLE DOES IT SAY THAT BELIEVERS WILL GO TO HELL?

As a perpetrator of an unbiblical premise, going against the teachings of the vast majority of early church leaders and renown theologians down through the centuries, the burden of proof is on you, my friend, not me!

 

Matthew 10
5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:
6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.
8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.
9 Provide neither gold, nor silver, nor brass in your purses,
10 Nor scrip for your journey, neither two coats, neither shoes, nor yet staves: for the workman is worthy of his meat.
11 And into whatsoever city or town ye shall enter, enquire who in it is worthy; and there abide till ye go thence.
12 And when ye come into an house, salute it.
13 And if the house be worthy, let your peace come upon it: but if it be not worthy, let your peace return to you.
14 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet.
15 Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.
16 Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.
17 But beware of men: for they will deliver you up to the councils, and they will scourge you in their synagogues;
18 And ye shall be brought before governors and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them and the Gentiles.
19 But when they deliver you up, take no thought how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be given you in that same hour what ye shall speak.
20 For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.
21 And the brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death.
22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.
23 But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.
24 The disciple is not above his master, nor the servant above his lord.
25 It is enough for the disciple that he be as his master, and the servant as his lord. If they have called the master of the house Beelzebub, how much more shall they call them of his household?
26 Fear them not therefore: for there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; and hid, that shall not be known.
27 What I tell you in darkness, that speak ye in light: and what ye hear in the ear, that preach ye upon the housetops.
28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Did Jesus point behind the twelve at some passing unbeliever when He spoke verse 28? When you realize that God is able to kill you, then raise you up and kill you again, does it really seem so odd that He could even raise you up again and give you eternal life? At the last day, just as He promised?

John 6:40
And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 11:24
Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

Revelation 20
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

It is right there in black and white brother, and you choose to ignore it at your own peril. The Lord came preaching this gospel of the kingdom, and it is going out again into all nations before the end comes:
Matthew 4:17
From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

We both know what the Lord requires of His servants. Choose this day whom ye will serve. There may not be much time left before he returns. I have more important things to do in the short time we have left than to play word games on the baptist board.

John 14:15
If ye love me, keep my commandments.

John 14:21
He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

James 1
12 Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.

Luke 12:47
And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.

 

John,

I have a huge stack of Church leaders and theologians that believe as I do. If you are interested, I could provide you with the resources. If you are not, then your point is just strife on your part. I guarantee you I have read and studied hundreds of theologians on your side. I have taught it from the pulpit. I have been down that road. You have only heard "hell" and rejected the whole thing.

There are many Millenial Exclusionists who don't believe a person who misses the Kingdom goes to Hell. I understand why they believe what they believe, and I respect their beliefs. The following verses and many others clearly teach that entrance to the Kingdom (1000 year reign of Christ on Earth - not Heaven/Eternity) is conditional. Notice:

The issue of "Hell" is not critical to the issue of Millenial Exclusion. For now, let me concede the issue of Hell to you (for argument's sake)and focus on another issue.

Where do you believe these "saints" go (during the Millenial Kingdom)if they do willfully and habitually partake with the "children of disobedience" in the sins mentioned in verse 5 without repenting? They obviously don't get to enter the Millenial Kingdom.

Lacy

 

Pilate sat on a "bema" to judge Jesus. Did he just give him a reward?

I think we should look to the Bible for our definitions, don't you?

 

Before reading your post I had already decided that it was time to declare that we should just agree to disagree and part ways amicably. But I guess you seem to think what one believes in this issue of believers going/not going to hell carries salvational consequences. I disagree with you there also. No matter which of us is right or wrong; me seeking to please my heavenly Father out of love and a desire to glorify Him, or you doing the same for the same reasons plus "after life chastisement," does not come close to the answers Jesus gave to "What must we do to be saved?"

I see nothing gained in your argument in your Matt 10 and Rev 20 passages. Matt 10 says "fear God, not man," in a nutshell, and Rev 20 speaks of the "Great White Throne" judgment which is for unbelievers only. There is no RESPECTED theologian I have read who believes that saints will experience the GWT judgment. So I don't see any point toward this debate.

I likewise don't see any point in Lacy's Ephesians example as the "dear children" are not "children of disobedience." The former are "sheep" and the later are "goats."

It's been educational, if nothing else. May WE ALL gain more and more insight into God's truths as we proceed forward in our earthly path of sanctification! Blessings!