Has Southern become closet Presbyterian?

Jeff,

The disturbing trend I see is moderates and mod-sympathizers who try to gin up an emotional case against Southern. I realize you didn't write the name of this thread, but you're marching in lock step with the one who did. You may see a disturbing trend, and it's fine to have that opinion even if it's wrong. But a trend is not equivalent to a denial of Baptist disctinctives and a hidden agenda to change denominations. So stop trying to insinuate that. </font>[/QUOTE]I'm truly amazed.

I am as conservative as they come and have no desire to attack Al Mohler (as has been stated) nor any notion that SBTS has any hidden agenda to change denominations.

I simply find it alarming how many seemingly isolated Pres. connections there are.

Please, again I implore you, read my posts for what they say. </font>[/QUOTE]So you support Al Mohler?

 

Indeed.

I disagree strongly with his calvinism. Other than that I support him. I'm a regular visitor to his weblog, try and read what he puts out.

As far as I know, I disagree only w/ his soteriology. At least as far as I've read of his material it is the only issue I've found that I don't agree with him.

 

He is certainly a wise man for his age. Have you heard him speak in person?

 

I'm not sure why you see that. I'm a moderate-conservtive, and what I typically see is hyperconservatives rallying against Southern Baptists for being "liberal". It's the old "my denomination is better than your denomination" tactic. It's bad enough we do it with non-Baptists. It's worse when we do it to Baptists. It simply breeds divisiveness and discord among the brethren, which is exactly what Satan wants.

Partisanship has got to be the most Satanic trend amongst the pews.

 

I'm not sure why you see that. I'm a moderate-conservtive, and what I typically see is hyperconservatives rallying against Southern Baptists for being "liberal". It's the old "my denomination is better than your denomination" tactic. It's bad enough we do it with non-Baptists. It's worse when we do it to Baptists. It simply breeds divisiveness and discord among the brethren, which is exactly what Satan wants.

Partisanship has got to be the most Satanic trend amongst the pews. </font>[/QUOTE]So which is the greater sin? Heresy or Schism?

 

The problem is not heresy. The problem is that many churches "think" that anyone who doesn't believe like they do is "heretical". Such an attitude is biblically unrighteous, but common. IMO, schism that results from unrighteousness is of Satan, not the Holy Spirit.

 

No, but my friend who is enrolled at Boyce makes sure I don't go with out cassettes.

 

Your website offer does not show that Spurgeon had altar calls! It only indicates that thousands were saved under his ministry. Spurgeon denounced "decisionism" (my term, not necessarily his)--that of forcing people under pressure to "come to the altar". Instead, he invited people to come to Christ. He was available to people for counsel & prayer, but did not have 39 verses of "Just as I Am" while waiting out the sweating sinner! You are the one who needs to do some historical research. I've studied church history under various sources.

I agree with everything you wrote. I am against any form of manipulation. In fact I have never been accused of manipulating anyone. But should we do any less than Jesus did when He said, “Come follow Me....”

Jesus said we are to make disciples too. Anything less is disobedience.

Instead, he invited people to come to Christ. He was available to people for counsel & prayer, but did not have 39 verses of "Just as I Am" while waiting out the sweating sinner!.

If that is not an invitation what is it?

Let me give you an example of why I think invitations should be public. But before I do let me also tell you about what Spurgeon wrote in the book “Soul Winner”. He mentioned that what a person does after the decision has a lot to do with how he was prepared. If you look at the conditions when a person came to Christ in the NT there would have been no such thing as an easy decision or easy believism or manipulation.

One time I was a guest preacher and a lady came forward informing the person when she came forward at the front that her cousin had been murdered. I wanted the body of believers to pray for her and encourage her during such a difficult time. We prayed for her publically as well. I then knew why God had me change the sermon two hours before.

I do see great value in invitations if done with great care and sensitivity. It is not about hounding people but about encouraging them to do what is right. I have seen plenty of

I am watching a pastor right now who have never been on staff in a church where an invitation was given. But he has been talking with me about a number of things. At first he disagreed with me about giving an invitation. So I gave him several examples of where appeals were given in scripture were given. He now gives an appeal at the end of each sermon and invites people to talk with him.

Why give any appeal if you expect no response? I want people to follow Jesus. Manipulation will not manifest itself in mature believers.

1 Kings 18:21, “And Elijah came near to all the people, and said, "How long will you go limping with two different opinions? If the LORD is God, follow him; but if Baal, then follow him." And the people did not answer him a word.”

What do you think the response was that Elijah wanted? How is this example any different than what any invitation should be.

Let me give you an example of some of the responses to a sermon I gave at a conference of young people.

One came forward and asked me to pray for him. He wanted to learn to witness better. Another boy came forward for prayer because his parents were getting divorced. Another came forward to receive Christ. There were numerous decisions to the same sermon. As those young people came forward I paired them up with other counselors. I did not know many of those counselors. But after the service at the end of the conference I began to hear stories of how I picked counselors at random for each person and how the counselor was the perfect person to counsel that young person. Only God can do that!

Each time I preach I feel compelled under God’s hand to yield to Him. It is a privilege He gives me. I have prayed for that time and the people. When I walk away I experience privileges that others may not know or see because I have sought God first. God knows and I am His instrument. I need to be sharp in the hands of the master doing what He desires. It is not about me or numbers but about walking with God. If we preach powder puff stuff we will get powder puff responses.

I pastored one church that had exactly that. The leadership even invited the Mormon bishop to preach and saw nothing wrong with that, Imagine how I felt when I heard that. That practiced ended when I became pastor. I preached from 1 and 2 Peter and Jude. Then Matthew. The religious crowd didn’t like me very well. In fact they wanted me out. But the church was growing rapidly and people were coming to Christ and being baptized. I met with 20 new believers each week. Those 20 started leading others to Christ. Some of the leadership told me they couldn’t understand the sermons. One of the men told me his wife couldn’t understand the sermons. One Sunday she came forward and asked for prayer. She wanted to walk with God. Her husband didn’t like what was going on. You should have seen the look on his face. I think we can tell when God is working because Satan is alive and well and would love to steal kill and destroy.

“Give me one hundred preachers who fear nothing but sin and desire nothing but God, and I care not a straw whether they be clergymen or laymen, such alone will shake the gates of hell and set up the kingdom of God upon the earth.” John Wesley

 

I don't think this question has been answered:
What exactly about Southern do you see as "presbyterian"?

I don't see ANY presbyterianism at Southern. Maybe I am missing it or maybe it is not there.

The point of this thread was to ask if Southern was moving Presbyterian, yet no one has given any example of this being evident at all.

 

What denominational control over churches?

 

The control is subtle. Much like communism started.

Don't kid yourself some of the SBC leaders would like to have all the seminaries under a chancellor. I am told they would like to have Mohler as a chancellor. That way all the seminaries could be controlled by one person, the chancellor.

In one church I pastored I saw the power and control issue first hand. There was an undermining of the autonomy of the local church through the SBC papers, magazines and volunteers. For example several states went away form a state newspaper with editorials from the people to a fully controlled paper or magazine with only articles from the SBC down.

Often I heard the state volunteers come back from a state meeting and then tell me what we ought to be doing at the local church. One time I was so irritated that I told one of the ladies I wanted her to start a ministry exactly the way she suggested. That is what I fully expected. She could not get anything going and still hasn't to this day. Yet she continues to advise others.

I moved to another state and was told by a DOM about how to start a church. He has never pastored not ever started a church. I have planted three and replanted one. The DOM repeated what he had been told which is exactly the same thing I heard in another state earlier. Those at the top level don't talk with the pastors first at a pastors conference but to the voulnteers. I heard many things coming down from the state volunteers long before I ever heard about them from the state itself. That is kind of like a person telling children how parents should discipline their children before telling the parents.

In one of the churches I pastored that had some state workers I tried to get them to pray and ask God for direction. But they always came back with answers from the state. Almost every time I thought "What idiot were they talking to?" So I turned the table around and asked some of those state volunteers to do what they had been told. Not one of them could ever get anything going locally.

In another church I pastored there was a man who was a volunteer at the state level. He came with some ideas. As I began to disciple him and teach him how to do ministry he became less and less involved at the state level and eventually quit the state stuff. He began to disciple others in the local church. He never learned that in any other church or at the state level. But he is continuing to disciple others today in that same church.

Ministry has to be done at the local level first in accordance with scripture under the Holy Spirit's guidance.

Why do you think Southern Seminary hired a number of people at the seminary who were from outside of the SBC?

The SBC has also brought in a number of outside advisors who have never been a part of the SBC. These same people are on their advisory boards and are not even Baptists.

How do I know? Because some of those state volunteers asked for my opinion of certain people. Those state volunteers are on state boards.

 

And the hits just keep on comin'.

Your debate tactic is to manipulate the facts to provoke emotional responses. Much like Hitler.

 

No, he's right there are a few misguided souls in the SBC who think the SBC should govern from the top down.

That's why we're blessed to have strong local church autonomy.

We need to remind the leadership of the SBC every now and then - who they work for.

The Local Church is the only Biblically Approved Institution in SBC Life.

 

Hardsheller,

I agree it's the case that a top-down power mindset is problematic in the SBC. It's one of my main gripes with the convention. My problem with the above comments is the method of argumentation in associating this top-down leaders with communism. The other issue is that hierarchical denominational authority is in no way exclusive to Presbyterianism. Good grief. Even independent Baptists have their problems with political power figures.

 

Agreed!

 

I did not set out to imply that the end result would be the same. But I have a friend who was in a country and saw how communism was started and how it ended. It started with a lot of good promises to the people until they were sucked in and lost any control.

Everyone in leadership must keep in mind that it is God we serve. It is He that hunbles and exalts people. He is in control and we must remember that. Just look at how quickly the wall came down in Germany. Like overnight.