Rapture: hocus-pocus

No...does scripture say where that thousand years will be spent?

 

Yes. Have a nice evening.

 

The reason that I asked Ed, is because my Bible is not real clear on it:

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and [I saw] the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.


Also, is the thousand years a literal thousand years, as I do not believe that time is marked in eternity, at least not the way that we view it:


2Pe 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day [is] with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.


So if some people are taken out on the early rapture bus will their thousand years be longer, like say a thousand and three and a half years or a thousand and seven years longer than the ones who make the second "cut"?

 

I have no problem with New Jerusalem.

I love John 14:1-3 promises us, when Christ shall come again, He will received us, where He is, we shall dwell with him in our Father's house forever and ever.

New Jerusalem shall descend out of the heaven right after the destruction of the old heavens and old earth occured - 2 Peter 3:10,12-13.

2 Peter 3:8 speaks of God's sight of the time is not same as ours. In our sight, a thousand years seems so long time. In the Lord's sight, athousand years is very short to him like as one day.

In the context of 2 Peter 3-13 speaks of the last days scoffers ask, where is the promise of Lord's coming? Many were expect, the Lord might come in their lifetime. But many of them already died in the past centuries. Also, many times, people often hear about the coming of the Lord in the past, and they are laughing on it, do not believe Christ shall come again. Same with Noah's day, many people heard warning of the flood. They don't believe in the flood. Noah preached on the flood for 120 years. They were laughed at him, they think he is so fool or nut. 100 years seem long time to them. But, they were not expect flood came and took them away immediately. So, shall be the same at the coming of the Lord like as thief in the night. People will be shocked and not aware of Christ comes to take them away like as thief.

Peter made point of 2 Peter 3:8,10 that His coming shall not be delay, He shall come quickly(Rev. 22:20), that they shall not expect of it.

On Monday or Tuesday, I will start new topic discuss about 'a thousand'.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

 

I'm sorry sir,
if the Bible is not clear,
how can you expect the Ed to be clearer?

If God didn't make it real clear
in His Love Message to us, perchance
it doesn't have to be clear
for us to eek ourselves into heaven

 

DeafPosttrib
Active Member
Member # 3213

You live up to your name

 

Ed,

This age will be done at Lord's coming - Rev. 10:7-the seventh angel(trumpet) shall shout, and saying 'the mystery of God should be finished'. Rev. 11:15 tells us, the seventh trumpet sounds, it says, 'The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and He shall reign for ever and ever.'. The seventh trumpet shall sound, as this age will be finish, the eternality begins. Rev. 16:17 tells us, the seventh angel pours vial, saying, 'It is done'.

Seventh angel, seventh trumpet, seventh anmgel with vial show of this age will be done, the eternality shall begin that would be at the coming of Christ.

1 Cor. 15:51-54 tell us, at the LAST trump, our body all shall be changed into immortality, that will be at Lord's coming.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

 

Well one thing is true about the title of this thread, the rapture will be pure magic In a flash and an instant we will be here one minute, gone the next AMEN!

 

Greetings in Jesus' name,

None of the scriptures that you referenced say or require that the age being referred to does not include the tribulation. Christians who will live to enter into the great tribulation will be members of the church, for they (like other Christians) will have washed their robes in the blood of the Lamb (Revelation 7:14), will have the faith of Jesus (Revelation 14:12), and will die in the Lord (Revelation 14:13).

The "times of the Gentiles" referred to in Luke 21:24 can't be fulfilled before the tribulation because they will still be treading down Jerusalem during the tribulation (Revelation 11:2).

The scriptures nowhere refer to a church age, but instead say that the church will continue throughout all ages (Ephesians 3:21).

No scripture says that all things on earth will pass away immediately after the second advent. The millennium of Revelation 20 must occur after the second advent of Revelation 19 because the millennium won't begin until after the resurrection of the church (Revelation 20:6), and those Christians martyred under the reign of the Antichrist will also reign with Christ for the thousand years (Revelation 20:4).

Matthew 13:40's reference to the end of this world (or age) can be a reference to the world (or age) of this creation (John 9:32; Acts 15:18; 1 Corinthians 2:7), which will include the time of the millennium, subsequent to which creation heaven and earth will flee away (Revelation 20:11) and be replaced by the new creation (Revelation 21:1).

Matthew 13:42 isn't referring to the second coming, for all evil isn't cast into the furnace of the lake of fire at the second coming, only the beast and false prophet are (Revelation 19:20). After the millennium (Revelation 20:4) and the battle of Gog and Magog occur (Revelation 20:7-8), and before the white throne judgment occurs (Revelation 20:11-15), Satan will also be cast into the lake of fire where only the beast and false prophet had been previously cast (Revelation 20:10).

Matthew 13:39-42 doesn't have to specifically mention the thousand years for it to be referring to the same event as Revelation 20:15, which is the casting of all those not written in the book of life into the lake of fire at the white throne judgment after the millennium and the battle of Gog and Magog (Revelation 20:7-15). The thousand years is clearly mentioned in the context of Revelation 20:7-15.

Zechariah 14:3-5 shows the second coming of Christ and Zechariah 14:6-21 shows what will occur on the earth subsequent to the second coming. There will be unbelievers "left" after the second coming (Zechariah 14:16; compare Matthew 24:40), "heathen" nations who won't come up to worship Jesus without great punishment (Zechariah 14:17-19; see also Psalms 2:8-12), unbelieving nations which believers will rule over with a rod of iron during the millennium and break to shivers like a potter's vessel (Revelation 2:26-27).

In 2 Peter 3:10-13, the Apostle Peter is referring to that "day" which will begin with the second coming and end after the millennium, the battle of Gog and Magog, and the while throne judgment (Revelation 19:11-21:1), the same thousand-year "day" that the prophet Zechariah is referring to in Zechariah 14:20-21, which will continue "in summer and in winter" (Zechariah 14:8-9) and "from year to year" (Zechariah 14:16), for a thousand years are as a day in the Lord's sight (2 Peter 3:8).

Are you referring to 2 Thessalonians 2:6-8? If so, the restrainer who is removed before the Antichrist is revealed (2 Thessalonians 2:7-8) can't be the Holy Spirit indwelling the church because Christians will be persecuted by the Antichrist (Revelation 13:10, 14:12-13), no one can be a Christian without the Spirit (Romans 8:9), no Christians are outside the church (Ephesians 4:4-5), and Christ's coming (parousia) to gather together the church will destroy the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:1, 8).

In the Bible we see that no scripture says that the rapture will be before the tribulation. Matthew 24:29-31 shows Jesus coming and gathering together His elect in the rapture after the tribulation. 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8 refers to this same coming and gathering together (verse 1) and confirms that it can't happen until after the man of lawlessness is revealed (verse 3), for it must destroy him (verse 8). Revelation 7:14; 13:10; 14:12-13 confirms that we Christians will be here during the tribulation, and that we will need patience and faith during that time.

The danger with the pre-trib teaching is that it attempts to give the church a false hope that it won't have to be on the earth during the tribulation. When this false hope fails, and the church enters into the tribulation suffering, many in the church could become offended with God that He would allow them to suffer like that (Matthew 24:9-13); or some in the church could even be deceived into thinking that the enemy has been able to somehow thwart God's will. But if we approach the tribulation knowing that Jesus has clearly warned us ahead of time what we must suffer (Mark 13:23), and that we must endure unto the very end (Matthew 24:13), we will have a better chance of not being offended and of not being deceived when the suffering comes, and we will be better prepared to remain on the earth with patience and faith (Revelation 13:10, 14:12-13), no matter what happens.

John 14:3 refers to the second coming, when we will be raptured up to be where Jesus is in the clouds (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17). Once we are in the clouds with Jesus, no scripture says that we will be taken all the way into the third heaven, for Jesus and we must descend to reign on the earth for the thousand years (Revelation 20:4; Revelation 5:10). After the thousand years are expired, and after the battle of Gog and Magog and the white throne judgment (Revelation 20:7-15), we will then live forever in the Father's house, New Jerusalem (Revelation 21:2-3), where Jesus has prepared an eternal place for us (John 14:2).

From the abomination of desolation, the Antichrist will be given legal rule over the earth for 1,260 days (Revelation 13:5; compare Luke 4:5-7), at the end of which time the seventh trumpet will announce Christ's taking legal rule over the earth (Revelation 11:15-17), and the temple in heaven will be opened (Revelation 11:19). Out of this temple-opening will come forth the seven plagues of the seven vials (Revelation 15:5-7) to commence as temporal judgment upon the Antichrist and his kingdom. Vials 1-6 (Revelation 16:1-14) could last for thirty days. On the 1,290th day, after the sixth vial has been poured out, the promise of blessing of Daniel 12:12 and Revelation 16:15 will be given to those saints still alive on the earth. After this promise of blessing, the completion of the sixth vial's gathering of all the armies of the whole world to Armageddon (Revelation 16:16, 19:19), followed by the seventh vial (Revelation 16:17-21), could take forty-five days, so that Christ will come to resurrect, rapture and judge the church, and destroy the Antichrist and his armies (Revelation 19:20-21; 2 Thessalonians 2:8), on the 1,335th day, and blessed are those who wait until that day (Daniel 12:12, Revelation 16:15).

Jesus' reign will be for ever and ever as He will continue upon the throne with the Father even in the new creation (Revelation 22:3).

Are you referring to Matthew 24:27? If so, Jesus' coming "as the lightning" in no way means that He will come secretly, for lightning doesn't come secretly -- everyone sees it. Rather, it means the opposite: Jesus' second coming will shine in the sky from the east to the west (Matthew 24:27); it will be unmistakable. In Matthew 24:27, Jesus is referring to the same coming of the Son of man as Matthew 24:29-30, immediately after the tribulation. There's no third coming.

Are you referring to 1 Corinthians 15:52? If so, that passage doesn't say or require that the rapture will be before the tribulation, or that the rapture will be instantaneous, or that the rapture will be secret. All that that passage says will happen "in the twinkling of an eye" is the changing of the bodies of those believers who are still alive at the second coming into immortal bodies (1 Corinthians 15:51-52). The second coming itself will involve much more than that. First, Jesus must descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God (1 Thessalonians 4:16); then the dead in Christ must be resurrected (1 Corinthians 15:52; 1 Thessalonians 4:16); then we which are alive and remain must be changed in the twinkling of an eye into immortal bodies (1 Corinthians 15:52-53); then we which are alive and remain must be caught up together with the resurrected dead into the clouds to meet the Lord in the air (1 Thessalonians 4:17). No scripture says that all of this will happen before the tribulation, or that all of this will happen instantaneously, or that all of this will happen secretly.

-

May the Lord Jesus Christ reveal to us the truth regarding these matters.

 

Postrib says: "The "times of the Gentiles" referred to in Luke 21:24 can't be fulfilled before the tribulation because they will still be treading down Jerusalem during the tribulation (Revelation 11:2)."

Ed says:
The time when the Gentiles can be saved referred to in Luke 22:24
CANNOT interfeer with the unsaved Gentiles treading down
Jerusalem during the tribulation (Revelation 11:2)."

Postrib says: "The scriptures nowhere refer to a church age, but instead say that the church will continue throughout all ages (Ephesians 3:21)."

By which Postrib must mean:
I do not accept your definition of the Term "Church Age"
because i really have no idea of what Ephesisans 3:21 means.

Hello! The Church Age is the time during which gentiles will be
savied into the church. You want "Church Age" to mean something
else which "Church" and "age" cannot mean. An age has a start time
and an end time; the Curch as spoken of in Epesians 3:21 has
no end. Hello: how can we speak of an "age" that defies the
defnition of age?

Postrib: //Christians who will live to enter into the great tribulation will be members of the church, for they (like other Christians) will have washed their robes in the blood of the Lamb (Revelation 7:14), will have the faith of Jesus (Revelation 14:12), and will die in the Lord (Revelation 14:13).//

Unfortunately for the beauty of your statement,
the "Christian who will live to enter into the great
tribulation" denotes the null set, that is, there is no
memebers of the specified set.
But you sure did string those wonderful words together well.

 

In the world of actual physical applications
of arithmetic 1003½ = 1000 = 1007.
How much more is a spiritual 1003½ = 1000 = 1007?

 

Greetings in Jesus' name,

Do you mean Luke 21:24? If so, Luke 21:24 says that Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled, and Revelation 11:2 says that Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles during the tribulation; therefore, the times of the Gentiles can't be fulfilled before the tribulation.

The Christians who will live to enter into the great tribulation will be from every people (Revelation 7:9-14), not just the Jews.

Because the Church has no end, it has no age. This is why the scriptures nowhere refer to a church age, but instead say that the church will continue "throughout all ages"(Ephesians 3:21).

The church is made up of all believers of all time, whether Jewish or Gentile (1 Corinthians 12:13), for there's only one faith, and only one body (Ephesians 4:4-6), which body is the church (Ephesians 1:22-23).

What religion would the people in the tribulation be who will have washed their robes in the blood of the Lamb (Revelation 7:14), will have the faith of Jesus (Revelation 14:12), and will die in the Lord (Revelation 14:13), if not Christian?

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May the Lord Jesus Christ reveal to us the truth regarding these matters.

 

Postrib: "The Christians who will live to enter into the great tribulation will be from every people (Revelation 7:9-14), not just the Jews."

This scripture shows Gentile Age saints in heaven.
They have come out of the tribulation period judgement
by being raptured BEFORE the tribualtion period judgement.

Postrib: "Because the Church has no end, it has no age. This is why the scriptures nowhere refer to a church age, but instead say that the church will continue "throughout all ages"(Ephesians 3:21)."

I think i said it right and you are wrong.
Others will deside for themselves. However, I'll mentione
it again. The "church age" of which i speak is BY DeFINITION
the time during which one can join the church while
being a gentile. It is also called the age of Gentiles by
some. The church itself, composed of church age elect saints
and Jewish Israeli elect saints endures forever, it is the
body of Chirst (which never dies) it is the bride of Christ
(and Jesus don't get no divorce).

 

Ed,

I will reply it back to you about it later today.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

 

Ed,

Christ said, "I will raise him up at the LAST DAY." - John 6:39,40,44, 54.

Last day simple mean final day. Even 1st Grade student understands what 'last day' means. First Grade student knows the last day of the school shall be tomorrow, then after that, there shall be NO MORE class after the last day for the summer.

Christ does not saying there shall be 367,555 days. He said, "LAST DAY". Very easy for us to understand what Christ really mean it. No need to make up or add something in any logical way to explain on 'last day'. Accept what Christ saying, believe Him.

In your mind, it saying, "came out of great tribulaiton" means they rapture out BEFORE tribulation comes. But, not what the elder actual saying to John. The elder told John, they already through great tribulation before they come out. Please look to Rev. 6:9-11 "And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were SLAIN FOR THE WORD OF GOD, AND FOR THE TESTIMONY WHICH THEY HELD. And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their FELLOW SERVANTS also and their BRETREN, that should be KILLED as they were, should be fulfilled."

Rev. 6:9-11 tell us very clear, that Christians shall be present on earth, many will be killed for their testimony of Jesus Christ, they will face great tribulation first before they come out of it - Rev. 7:9-17.

Rev. 7:9-17 is a very clear picture of the rapture right after the sixth seal occured - Rev. 6:12-15 refer with Matt. 24:29-31.

[Quote It is also called the age of Gentiles by some. The church itself, composed of church age elect saints and Jewish Israeli elect saints endures forever, it is the body of Christ (which never dies) it is the bride of Christ (and Jesus don't get no divorce).[/Quote]

Both Jews and Gentiles are no longer divided, now both are reconciled unity together into ONE BODY by the Calvary for forever and ever - Ephesians 2:12-16.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

 

Acts 2:14-17 (nKJV):

But Peter, standing up with the eleven,
raised his voice and said to them,
"Men of Judea and all who dwell in Jerusalem,
let this be known to you, and heed my words.
15 For these are not drunk, as you suppose,
since it is only the third hour of the day.
16 But this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel:
17 'And it shall come to pass in the last days,
says God, That I will pour out of My Spirit on all flesh;
Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
Your young men shall see visions,
Your old men shall dream dreams

This sermon in the summer of of 33AD at the
day of Pentacost says it it when the last days begins.
That was 719,888 each 24-hour-days ago.
That is, the last days have been going on for
One Million, Four Hundred and Thirty-nine Thousand,
Seven Hundred and seventy-six each 12-hours-of-daylight
days ago. 2,159,664 each 8-hour-work days ago
the LAST DAYS began.

DeafPosttrib: //Christ does not saying there shall be 367,555 days.
He said, "LAST DAY".//

Actually the LAST DAY i speak of (from the Bible) is mentioned
in Daniel 9:27 as a 7-year-long day.
Also mentioned in the Bible is the two halves of the year:

1260 24-hour days (3½-years)
fourty-two months (3½-years)
time, times and half-a-time (3½-years)

BTW, you would do much better to find scripture to support your
eschatology. My pretribulation Doctrine is way more airtight
than your minority a-millinnial position: post-trilbulation.
Mostly becaues you don't even begin to understand pretrib.

DeafPosttrib: "Both Jews and Gentiles are no longer divided, now both are reconciled unity together into ONE BODY by the Calvary for forever and ever - Ephesians 2:12-16."

Amen, Brother DPT -- Preach it! They are one.

They are also two, else you couldn't have said
"Jews and Gentiles".

They are also three:
1. Unsaved Jews
2. Unsaved Gentiles
3. Saved Gentiles and Messanic Jews.

But you have no idea when to one, when to two, and when to three.

 

Ed,

I will reply it back to you later or tomorrow night to continue discuss more about it.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

 

Greetings in Jesus' name,

When we look at the scriptures, we see that none of the seven seals (Revelation 6) or the seven trumpets (Revelation 8-9) of the tribulation is ever called a judgment. Only the seven vials (Revelation 16) are referred to as judgments (Revelation 15:4; 16:7), and they will in no way be directed against the believers who will be on the earth (Revelation 16:15).

It says the great multitude "came out of great tribulation" (Revelation 7:14) because they had entered into it; they couldn't have come out of something that they hadn't entered into. And it doesn't say they were raptured; they could have entered heaven by dying in the seals in the chapter just prior (Revelation 6). In the Bible we see that no scripture says that the rapture will be before the tribulation. Matthew 24:29-31 shows Jesus coming and gathering together His elect in the rapture after the tribulation. 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8 refers to this same coming and gathering together (verse 1) and confirms that it can't happen until after the man of lawlessness is revealed (verse 3), for it must destroy him (verse 8). Revelation 7:14; 13:10; 14:12-13 confirms that we Christians will be here during the tribulation, and that we will need patience and faith during that time.

The Christians who will live to enter into the great tribulation will include Gentiles (Revelation 7:9-14), and there are no Christians outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-6).

Again, Luke 21:24 says that Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled, and Revelation 11:2 says that Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles during the tribulation; therefore, the times of the Gentiles can't be fulfilled before the tribulation.

"At the last day" in John 6:39-54 could refer to the beginning of the last thousand-year day of Creation, for a thousand years are as a day in the Lord's sight (2 Peter 3:8). The thousand years of Revelation 20 must occur after the second coming of Revelation 19 because the thousand years won't begin until after the resurrection of the church (Revelation 20:6), and those Christians martyred under the reign of the Antichrist will also reign with Christ for the thousand years (Revelation 20:4).

-

May the Lord Jesus Christ reveal to us the truth regarding these matters.

 

hello im back now i have been asbent this long time.

let discuss about the last day.

John 11:24 she know that he will rise again in last day tell us clearly that we will ressurrection at the last day. refer with john 5:21,6:39,40,44 and I john 5:10 and i cor 15:21. all scripture tell us one future ressurecction at second coming of Jesus christ.

did you read john 11:1-26 is talking the death of lazaurs. picture of future ressurrection. and luke 16:19-30 is picture of enteral life for all indivial christ set two places for evelasting punishemnt and enteral life with christ.

brumleyj
ps27:1

 

Greetings in Jesus' name,

"The" resurrection (1 Corinthians 15:21) "at the last day" (John 6:39-54; 11:24) refers to the resurrection of believers (Revelation 20:4-6) at the beginning of the last thousand-year day of Creation, and of unbelievers at the end of the last thousand-year day (Revelation 20:5-13), for a thousand years are as a day in the Lord's sight (2 Peter 3:8).

-

May the Lord Jesus Christ reveal to us the truth regarding this matter.